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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 9:53:47 AM

Phydeaux

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Wow. I am more than happy to let this rest here and letter the readers decide who is engaging in the behaviors you describe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Now you are flat out lying. I haven't called you any names, and you did make the accusation of hate based on no evidence.

You don't get to make any demands to play your trolling games when you've been caught using non-stop logical fallacies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Back to the logical fallacies? Is that what the Bible means by 'bearing false witness'?

Skepticism isn't always hate.

Let me be blunt. You aren't an apostle. Neither are any of the popes, and Saul of Tarsus fell off a horse and apparently did serious damage to his head, before reversing his entire world view, then proclaiming himself one of the Apostles, and then finally deciding he was the next Savior, just before he died.

Show me anything that supports the notion that if Jesus returned today, he would look at the worldwide manifestation of Christianity today, and say 'These are my beloved people, with whom I am well pleased'.

First. I never said anything about scepticism being hate. Don't know where that came from.
Second, if you're going to accuse me of something - please do argue the point rather than just call names.

Third. You are factually wrong. The first pope (Peter) was an apostle.
Fourth. Please document from whence you get the idea that he was the next savior.

Fifth. As for doctrine - Some of the earliest writings are from Hyppolitus in the 3rd century. He refutes various heresies, and likewise documents that the beliefs of the time are significantly the same as currently. Read, Philosophumena, for example.

Sixth. I can give you tonnes of evidence - but you would accept none of it. My little church - of about 1000 members - supports 19 schools and two orphanages in haiti. Free food and free education is provided to any that come.

But that kind of news doesn't make your world. It doesn't make headlines - and so you rarely hear it or see it, or hence believe it.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/17/2013 9:57:56 AM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 10:03:57 AM

Phydeaux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I didn't want to get into the logical possibilities of a god that is both good and evil.

Do you think those logical possibilities exist?

They absolutely exist.

Heh. Alright, I'll rephrase the question. What are the logical possibilities that would allow for a deity that is both good and evil while being simultaneously worthy of esteem and devotion? That last part is important, because otherwise religion is just a euphemism for ass-kissing.

K.

I'm not really qualified in this area Kirata - I 've read a couple of comparative theology texts, and have had tangential exploration while reading about Christian theology.

I have seen Hindu ceremonies and the people do seem to venerate gods that have light and dark characteristics with esteem and devotion. There are also other gods that seems to be appeased. I suspect, considering your avatar - that you know far more about this than I.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 6:14:45 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

The question is would Christ approve the church.

I won't presume to speak for JC.

But this did bring to mind a fun bit of Vatican trivia. Papal limousines have license plates starting with SCV. It stands for "Stato della Città del Vaticano."

Cynical Italians, though, interpret it as "Si Christo Videsse"--"If Christ could only see this!"

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 6:16:45 PM

tazzygirl

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http://www.lctmag.com/people/news/42052/bus-not-limousine-picked-for-papal-ride

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 6:20:15 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

This brings to mind something I've long pondered as a liberal church lady. Liberal Christians are really good at saying what the Bible is not: a literal memo from God, a science text, a ready-made code of conduct for the 21st century. And we're really lousy at saying what it is and why it matters to us.

What it IS

An excellently written piece of literature handed down from word of mouth before being "written" that gives a great depiction of the time (as much as word of mouth can be trusted). It gives a historical look into the times, and glimpses of the reasons behind some things. (think red tides and shellfish).

and some wanted it translated to be worded and the meaning to come out like they wanted it, like king james...

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 6:23:48 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.lctmag.com/people/news/42052/bus-not-limousine-picked-for-papal-ride

He's definitely determined to radiate simplicity and humility, which I admire deeply.

A priest friend of my aunt's recently stayed at the same guest house where the pope lodges, having decided not to dwell in the grand papal apartment. Every morning, Francis says mass at the guest house and invites any priest present to concelebrate with him. My aunt said her friend was still beaming, weeks later.

I do worry, though, that disappointment may loom as Francis proves to be on the same doctrinal wavelength as JP2 and Benedict.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 6:34:27 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I didn't want to get into the logical possibilities of a god that is both good and evil.

Do you think those logical possibilities exist?

They absolutely exist.

Heh. Alright, I'll rephrase the question. What are the logical possibilities that would allow for a deity that is both good and evil while being simultaneously worthy of esteem and devotion? That last part is important, because otherwise religion is just a euphemism for ass-kissing.

I'm not really qualified in this area Kirata

Fair enough. Then we'll leave it that I have a quibble with the claim they exist, or even that one could exist, outside the fevered imagination of the guy trying to promote it.

K.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 8:19:47 PM

Powergamz1

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I was told that the description of God as 'both transcendent and immanent' meant that every possibility existed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I didn't want to get into the logical possibilities of a god that is both good and evil.

Do you think those logical possibilities exist?

They absolutely exist.

Heh. Alright, I'll rephrase the question. What are the logical possibilities that would allow for a deity that is both good and evil while being simultaneously worthy of esteem and devotion? That last part is important, because otherwise religion is just a euphemism for ass-kissing.

I'm not really qualified in this area Kirata

Fair enough. Then we'll leave it that I have a quibble with the claim they exist, or even that one could exist, outside the fevered imagination of the guy trying to promote it.

K.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 9:02:08 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

No, belief is not a choice. This is easily demonstrable, try believing that Santa Claus is real.

Greater minds that yours have believed that God existed. Pascal, for example. Roger Bacon, Napier,Galileo, Kepler, Descartes, Boyle, Newton, Linnaeus, Euler, Bernouli, Priestly, Volta, Babbage, Maxwell, Faraday, Mendal, Gray, Joule, Hertz, Pasteur, Stokes, Kelvin, Marconi, Heisenberg.

Greater hearts than yours have believed as well. Barton, St. Theresa, Mother Theresa....

You know fundamentally, 11 men believed that Christ was God. Most of them died horrible deaths - but they travelled the world preaching the Gospel.
People may die, with difficulty, for a good man. But the will not voluntary die for something they know to be false.

These apostles believed. And against that you have nothing.

Great minds have believed that God existed, but they didn't believe in the God you talk about either......

Frankly, I think you're just disagreeing to disagree.

Previous poster said that they were posting here because they were previously christians and now knew better.

Saying that many of these great minds do not believe what I believe (especially since you don't know what I believe) has nothing to do with the point that great, rational minds can and do still believe.

I wasn't just disgreeing, my point is that arguing 'they believed' doesn't mean they were the kind of mindless belief that is the realm of orthodox religion, where you check your mind at the door. Something like 90% of Americans believe in God or some sort of structure to the universe, but a minority believe, for example, in a theistic God or in the fundamentalist/orthodox beliefs. Belief doesn't mean you swallow the whole nine yards, it simply means you think there is something greater than us.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 9:06:33 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

If Jesus returned to day and preached what he did back then, the evangelicals would declare him a heretic, the Pope would say what he is preaching is not what Our Lord Wanted, Right wing talk radio would be full of angry tea party doofuses calling him a liberal socialist practicing class warfare and his call that the poor shall inherit the earth is pinko propaganda, cause all the poor are are lazy, good for nothing types who want to live off everyone else...and they would probably try to crucify him, not on a cross, but through Fox News and blog sites and the like.

Pretty offensive stuff for very little reason.
Evangelicals preach on a daily basis what Christ said.

Please also remember Christ didn't preach overthrowing Rome. He didn't tell tax collectors to stop collecting taxes, or soldiers to stop fighting. He didn't tell slaves they were free.

For a liberal Christian - I don't find your characterizations of other christians very christian. Perhaps there is too much liberal to it - and not enough Christian.

"They will know you are christians by your love."

I don't think you have been reading what religion has turned into. I don't think Christ would be happy with the priestly abuse scandal, I don't think he would be very happy with the religious right and their unholy allegiance with the GOP (supporting the GOP's draconian ideas on the poor and their worship of the well off for their support on abortion and gays), I don't think they would appreciate the RC persecuting nuns for spending too much time helping the poor and not enough yelling about abortion and same sex marriage.....

I have a lot of respect for people of faith, I don't have a lot of respect for the organized churches and I have zero respect for the fundamentalists or for the evangelicals who seem to think the faith means beating everyone else up with their faith and wanting it forced on everyone else, or using the law to enforce their bigotry.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 9:16:16 PM

njlauren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I didn't want to get into the logical possibilities of a god that is both good and evil.

Do you think those logical possibilities exist?

They absolutely exist.

Heh. Alright, I'll rephrase the question. What are the logical possibilities that would allow for a deity that is both good and evil while being simultaneously worthy of esteem and devotion? That last part is important, because otherwise religion is just a euphemism for ass-kissing.

K.

The answer to that lies in the realm that God is not the puppet master/all powerful/all knowing theistic God as he was portrayed by men. The idea that God wants evil or allows it to me is a false premise, it assumes that everything is under God's control, and I don't buy that. Yeah, the OT is full of it, but that was written by a group with a specific viewpoint, one that most modern Jews would shudder at.

People accuse me of hating the Catholic Church, which is probably true of the Vatican, but there are wise and wonderful people in that church that get it. PBS on Frontline did a program called "Faith and Doubt after 9/11" (that is an incredible program), and they had this wise old priest who reminded me of the actor Joss Acklend (he played the Russian Ambassador in "Hunt for Red October"), and he said that 9/11 wasn't an act of God, despite what the evangelical moron chorus said, he said that wasn't God, God neither allowed it or wanted it. Rather, he said God was in the reaction to it, the firefighters losing their lives trying to save people, those who helped others, some who lost their lives staying with others who couldn't get out....and even in the poor souls at the windows, whose last act was to link arms and jump......he got it. The priest at a funeral of a Friend when asking why she died, said God didn't will it, it was not God's will, God wants us to live, and she died because God can't change the rules of nature and of being mortal....they get it.

The theistic, all controlling 'God of Comfort and security' is a safety blanket people cling to, if something bad happens it has to be God's will, if evil happens it has to be God's doing, because otherwise, that means God cannot do all, isn't in control of everything, and that is scary. God in those people eyes is like a parent to a small child, all knowing, omnipotent, safe..funny part is, when we grow up and realize our parents are human, it is no longer scary, and if you take God for what it is, rather than a safety blanket, it isn't scary either, you learn to accept reality,much the same way Atheists do or people who are Buddhist and the like.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/17/2013 11:41:32 PM

GotSteel

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That's was entirely nonsensical response to my statement.

Belief is not a choice. This is easily demonstrable, try picking a belief fundimentally different from your own and believe in it. Believe in Santa Claus, the flying spaghetti monster, quetzalcoatl, the righteousness of the Talaban. Try it, you won't be able to believe because belief is not a choice.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 3:41:09 AM

chatterbox24

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How is my response nonsensical ?

Do atheists chose to not believe in God? Do people chose to believe all parts of the bible? Do some believe it is okay to worshio many Gods? Do all people believe Jesus was the son of God? Whether right or wrong people chose to believe the way they want, unless they are under Gods will and not their own, and that requires being saved in my belief which is my choice (directed by God)

I have no desire to offend anyone, but I believe in the Bible, there is a lesson in all of it, a message in all of it, and I believe not all souls will go on, because until you are saved, you have made a choice not to believe. How is that not a choice? You either believe in a divine enlightment, experience it or you do not. I wouldn't recommend it, in fact I would beg others to please listen to their hearts and give yourself to God, but we cant make them, they are still entitled to their choice, as sad as that may be to me.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 4:18:15 AM

eulero83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Cynical Italians, though, interpret it as "Si Christo Videsse"--"If Christ could only see this!"

OT it's "se Cristo vedesse" or it sounds like a cynical mtv jersey shore's cast member trying to speek italian.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 4:45:21 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

OT it's "se Cristo vedesse" or it sounds like a cynical mtv jersey shore's cast member trying to speek italian.

Oops! Sorry about that. That's what I get for not getting up and double-checking the book in which I read that. Thanks for the good catch.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 5:22:47 AM

DaddySatyr

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Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni. Grazie

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 5:41:31 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

Here's the thing, an awful lot of us used to be Christians. We get it, we experienced it and that's why we are speaking up against it.

quote:

No, belief is not a choice.

I've been puzzling over this, and your meaning isn't entirely clear. Are you saying belief is involuntary? Mentally? Psychologically? In some other way?

If belief isn't a choice, how did folks who "used to be Christians" move on to a different mindset?

And doesn't conversion involve some element of choice?

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 5:45:04 AM

tazzygirl

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are we given that choice as children?

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 5:58:44 AM

dcnovice

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quote:

are we given that choice as children?

My honest answer to that would be, "It depends." Many parents, I know, try to transmit their religious practices (probably more so than specific dogmas) to their children. Yet my experience (with myself, friends, and now my nieces and nephews) is that kids begin questioning and thinking for themselves far sooner than we often give them credit for. One of my nieces, for instance, recently announced that she wasn't praying anymore, because her prayers had failed to cure her grandmother or me; she just finished third grade.

And children grow up. At some point--high school, college, adulthood--even the most sheltered kids discover that there are other beliefs in the world, and many of them jettison their childhood religion. So I'd argue that anyone practicing a religion as an adult has at some level, perhaps implicitly in what economists call a "revealed preference," made a choice to do so.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/18/2013 6:08:22 AM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
are we given that choice as children?

In many households, the children are given no choice whatsoever.
They are indoctrinated from birth in what their parents/guardians believe in.

I believe that ideology is very very wrong.
I brought my kids up with no influence on any particular faith.
They went to many different schools.
Some were christian, some were on the outskirts of it.
Some were even hindu.
They had many friends from all religious backgrounds and all were welcomed here.
So they grew up learning about all sorts of religions and now they are old enough to make up their own minds which path to follow.

I won't condemn them for their beliefs and I think it's right for me to take that stance.
I firmly belive that everyone has a given right to learn all faiths and choose for themselves - not have their parents' faith rammed down their necks from birth.

Just my