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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/22/2013 8:20:55 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Watching the contortions the author put himself through, I keep wondering: Why is it so important to persuade people that belief is not a choice?

Because it's important to deny the existence of a spiritual ghost in the human bio-machine.

K.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/22/2013 8:22:29 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Watching the contortions the author put himself through, I keep wondering: Why is it so important to persuade people that belief is not a choice?

Because it's important to deny the existence of a spiritual ghost in the human bio-machine.

K.

"Ghost In the Machine"? Excellent reference!

Thank you,

Andy Summers

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/22/2013 8:26:05 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Believe in Santa Claus, the flying spaghetti monster, quetzalcoatl, the righteousness of the Talaban. Try it, you won't be able to believe because belief is not a choice.

Thought experiment: What happens if we edit the examples in the first sentence?

Believe in evolution, trial by jury, the scientific method, human rights, dark matter. Try it, you won't be able to believe because belief is not a choice.

Still true?

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/23/2013 5:13:28 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Here's the thing, an awful lot of us used to be Christians. We get it, we experienced it and that's why we are speaking up against it.

Had another thought about this point. Given how large and diverse Christianity is, I'm not sure there's a single "it" that anyone experiences fully. Growing up, say, Southern Baptist is starkly different from being brought up Catholic. That, in turn, differs from the experience of many Episcopalians.

Certainly the dogma comes in many different flavors but in the basic sense I'm talking about (i.e. magical thinking) one doesn't need to have tried them all to grasp how it works.

To make an analogy I haven't tried every flavor of kool-aid, yet I'm quite comfortable saying that I get how drinking the kool-aid works.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/23/2013 5:45:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Thought experiment: What happens if we edit the examples in the first sentence?

Believe in evolution, trial by jury, the scientific method, human rights, dark matter. Try it, you won't be able to believe because belief is not a choice.

Still true?

Absolutely!

As was pointed out in the link: "I disbelieve in unicorns and I could not choose otherwise, just as I also could not believe, absent new evidence that changes my understanding of geography, that New York is south of Florida. "

If you found Santa stuck in your chimney I expect that your worldview would change. Similarly if I'm ever presented with evidence of god(s) that would make a theist out of me. But I can't just choose to be one, I need to have my understanding of reality altered by something.

You use evolution as an example, what I've found on this and other forums is that the average denier doesn't even know what evolution is. Typically they've been brainwashed with a pile of flat out lies and that has to be dismantled before there's any hope of their belief changing.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/23/2013 6:55:38 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

To make an analogy I haven't tried every flavor of kool-aid, yet I'm quite comfortable saying that I get how drinking the kool-aid works.

So it's okay if I take, say, Madalyn Murray O'Hair as representative of all atheists?

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/23/2013 7:10:18 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

As was pointed out in the link: "I disbelieve in unicorns and I could not choose otherwise, just as I also could not believe, absent new evidence that changes my understanding of geography, that New York is south of Florida. "

It's interesting that both you and the author always resort to farcical "beliefs" to buttress your point. And also that neither of you cited any research backing up your claim.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/23/2013 8:27:41 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

It's interesting that both you and the author always resort to farcical "beliefs" to buttress your point. And also that neither of you cited any research backing up your claim.

Well now, don't be too hard on him. It's not really a choice. It's just a result of his biological composition (particularly his brain function) combined with the knowledge he has gained through his life experiences.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/23/2013 9:04:59 PM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 12:57:57 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Thought experiment: What happens if we edit the examples in the first sentence?

Believe in evolution, trial by jury, the scientific method, human rights, dark matter. Try it, you won't be able to believe because belief is not a choice.

Still true?

Absolutely!

As was pointed out in the link: "I disbelieve in unicorns and I could not choose otherwise, just as I also could not believe, absent new evidence that changes my understanding of geography, that New York is south of Florida. "

If you found Santa stuck in your chimney I expect that your worldview would change. Similarly if I'm ever presented with evidence of god(s) that would make a theist out of me. But I can't just choose to be one, I need to have my understanding of reality altered by something.

Belief, as opposed to knowledge, is generally defined along the lines of confidence in the truth of something not proven.

Finding Santa stuck in your chimney would constitute physical proof that he exists, which you would then know to be true regardless of whether you had previously believed or disbelieved. Proof resolves the issue. The reason you can't choose to believe something you don't believe, or disbelieve something that you do believe, is because the choice has already been made, not because belief and disbelief aren't choices.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/24/2013 1:02:45 AM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 4:28:49 AM

MrBukani

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I certainly believe that one can choose to play dumb.

The biggest problem is ego, because old people in general don't wanna admit they are wrong. Kinda hard to accept you were on the wrong track, most of your pathetic life.

general reply.

What I am still asking and what the so called christian really has a hard time answering is this. When it's proven without a doubt God does not exist, do you feel your life is less worthy?

Still waiting for an honest answer. Asked that in about three threads and still no answer.

So I am probably terribly right in my assumption.
I pitty the fools who do not dare to answer straight and always wriggle through the answer, in protection of their feeble faith.
Cause it often shatters with the truth.
I drive a hard bargain, maybe is for the guessing kind. It's either yes or no, no in betweenies.
Cheerio...

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 6:27:53 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

When it's proven without a doubt God does not exist, do you feel your life is less worthy?

Still waiting for an honest answer. Asked that in about three threads and still no answer.

Well, the most honest answer would probably be that people don't want to end up moderated.

K.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 6:36:22 AM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

When it's proven without a doubt God does not exist, do you feel your life is less worthy?

Still waiting for an honest answer. Asked that in about three threads and still no answer.

Well, the most honest answer would probably be that people don't want to end up moderated.

K.

Now that's bloody funny

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 6:42:14 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

When it's proven without a doubt God does not exist, do you feel your life is less worthy?

Still waiting for an honest answer. Asked that in about three threads and still no answer.

Well, the most honest answer would probably be that people don't want to end up moderated.

K.

That's good stuff, right thar, Kirata!

I wonder, though - based upon my own quirky little belief - how people would feel if we changed it to:

quote:

When science proves, without a doubt that God does exist, will you feel like you've been riding the wrong train or will you (I can't help it) make a choice to stop believing in science?

I'll grant that NO ONE is ever going to be able to prove (to some people) that God exists but, what if (Grrrrr poor wording, I apologize)~~the converse~~ my little held belief - that science will eventually prove that God does exist - becomes true?

kala,

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< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 7/24/2013 6:46:54 AM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 9:34:45 AM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When science proves, without a doubt that God does exist, will you feel like you've been riding the wrong train or will you (I can't help it) make a choice to stop believing in science?

That['s an interesting hypothetical.

I certainly wouldn't stop believing in science because I don't believe science and religious faith are incompatible. I'm generally a fan of the NOMA position.

The only real clashes come with either a small group of religious believers (e.g. Creationists) attempting to use religion in a field it has no place in or a small number of online atheists who've just read their first Dawkins book and are determined to let the whole bloody world know about it.

However, all proof of the existence of god would lead me to is believing that god exists. It doesn't necessarily follow that I would choose to worship that god or even pay them any heed at all, outside of dodging possible thunderbolts aimed at my heretical self.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 9:39:15 AM

Phydeaux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Here's the thing, an awful lot of us used to be Christians. We get it, we experienced it and that's why we are speaking up against it.

Had another thought about this point. Given how large and diverse Christianity is, I'm not sure there's a single "it" that anyone experiences fully. Growing up, say, Southern Baptist is starkly different from being brought up Catholic. That, in turn, differs from the experience of many Episcopalians.

Certainly the dogma comes in many different flavors but in the basic sense I'm talking about (i.e. magical thinking) one doesn't need to have tried them all to grasp how it works.

To make an analogy I haven't tried every flavor of kool-aid, yet I'm quite comfortable saying that I get how drinking the kool-aid works.

And those of us that believe quite get that you don't have the foggiest idea how "drinking the kool-aid works".

You've only ever seen one side of the equation - many of us have seen both.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 9:42:11 AM

mnottertail

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Because science will never prove that god exists, because you would see the invisible hand, and it aint there.

Now, Odin? Whole different deal there.

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 9:51:38 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Because science will never prove that god exists, because you would see the invisible hand, and it aint there.

Now, Odin? Whole different deal there.

Let's play devil's Advocate with the "If science proves God exists" statement.

Agnostic/Aetheist A believes in Science.

Science somehow proves the existence of God.

Agnostic/Aetheist A then becomes Deist A.

Therefore Deist A Can absolutely NOT lose his belief in science.

Why?
If he loses his belief in science, he loses faith in what proved the existence of God and changed him from an Agnostic/Aetheist to a Deist.

If he loses his belief in science, he is therefore obligated to return to his previous Agnosticism/Aetheism.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 7/24/2013 10:26:17 AM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 10:09:15 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When science proves, without a doubt that God does exist, will you feel like you've been riding the wrong train or will you (I can't help it) make a choice to stop believing in science?

That's an interesting hypothetical.

I certainly wouldn't stop believing in science because I don't believe science and religious faith are incompatible. I'm generally a fan of the NOMA position.

The only real clashes come with either a small group of religious believers (e.g. Creationists) attempting to use religion in a field it has no place in or a small number of online atheists who've just read their first Dawkins book and are determined to let the whole bloody world know about it.

However, all proof of the existence of god would lead me to is believing that god exists. It doesn't necessarily follow that I would choose to worship that god or even pay them any heed at all, outside of dodging possible thunderbolts aimed at my heretical self.

Ahhhh but where would we be without heretics ... like Galileo or DaVinci for example?

But, seriously, I wasn't anywhere near suggesting that once a thing is proven we have to follow it or even like it. I can prove to you that alligators exist. I don't worship them and I don't expect you to do so, either.

I just find it so ... I don't know what the word is - and I'm not aiming this at you, per se, Apoc - I guess the word is "incongruent" that some non-believers feel the need to get so worked up over people who believe.

I don't believe in little green men from outer space. I don't care if you believe in them. I don't even care if you talk to me about your belief in them. Honestly, I don't care if you worship them.

So, what drives the non-believers that seem to have this need to make sure that absolutely NO ONE believes in or worships a higher power?

When I lived in NJ, I lived less than .5 miles away from a ... I don't even know what they called it ... a "Barracks" for Mormon missionaries. They used to knock on my door, all the time, wanting to talk to me about their faith.

If I had some time, I talked to them. One of them even became a frequent chess partner and we'd bandy back and forth. Neither of us felt the need to destroy the other's faith.

Well, that's not entirely true. The city in which I lived was mostly non-white with a large hispanic population but a fairly large black population and I use to tell him that if I ever saw him with a large group of people around him in my neighborhood, I'd ask him to explain Mormon 5:29 (I think I remembered that correctly) which explains how God doesn't like black people and doesn't want the races to inter-mingle. Then, I'd show him a photo of my (mixed-race) son and we'd talk about what a fine man he was.

Anyway, I think there's people that believe and people that don't believe and I think in both camps, there are crusaders. That may be where the real issue is.

Eppur si muove,

Vincenzo Maculani

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 7/24/2013 10:40:52 AM >

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 1:46:41 PM

Phydeaux

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Mormons didn't let black people go to heaven until 1976....

Anyway, I have to concur Ds. I had a Jehovah Witness Hall near my house. Two little old ladies used to come by asking if they could witness. I said sure - as long as they gave me equal amount of time to witness to them. This went on for 8 weeks. On the 9th week, they brought the head of their outreach ministries. On the 16th week they quit coming....

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RE: Do Liberal Christians Hate The Bible? - 7/24/2013 8:33:04 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

So, what drives the non-believers that seem to have this need to make sure that absolutely NO ONE believes in or worships a higher power?

The same thing that drives rabid believers, a non-reality based utopian ideology that features a vision of a better world, a "them" to blame for the shortcomings of the present one, and a prescription for what needs to be done about who in order to fix it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/24/2013 8:54:54 PM >

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