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[Poll]

Who are more free... Americans or Europeans


Americans have more freedoms
  37% (22)
Europeans have more freedoms
  35% (21)
Both are about as free as eachother
  27% (16)


Total Votes : 59


(last vote on : 8/22/2013 9:34:29 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 7:44:27 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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Yes there are certainly some issues, read again what I wrote. Polite sub makes a claim and you back it up with personal experience.
So I assume you agree with the statement
Nuff said!

Want to really dive into the matter european healthcare aint that good as it's made out to be?
Cause that's what a real man would do.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 7:48:50 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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fr

I have to laugh, no one, (except muah) has ever put up the legal definition of freedom yet we see thread after thread and yammer on about it.

anyone want to take a shot at it LMAO



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(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 7:58:25 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
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yes me of course there's not enuff realones roamin these corners of the net.
you start the thread and I will hammer on it.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/26/2013 7:59:27 AM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 8:45:35 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?




quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.




many places? so not all places? that's makes equal Europe and USA on this point, so change triviality to fix on.

If I were not sure you twist other words on purpose I'd think you are a bit dumb, but as neither I am dumb please stop twisting what it's been wrote.

by the way I was challenging your idea that this measures freedom looking if gay are allowed marriage, telling there is freedom if they are not incarcerated for the fact of being gay, I do not deny not the fact that in italy or some other countries same sex marriage is not allowed, but that's about the idea of family not on perosnal freedom.

and as some said all the people here are comparing quality of life not freedom.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 8:49:06 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
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So the claim that gay couples aren't as free in Italy, the UK, and the other countries I named, is true, but you want to keep arguing that it isn't.

Carry on then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?




quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.




many places? so not all places? that's makes equal Europe and USA on this point, so change triviality to fix on.

If I were not sure you twist other words on purpose I'd think you are a bit dumb, but as neither I am dumb please stop twisting what it's been wrote.

by the way I was challenging your idea that this measures freedom looking if gay are allowed marriage, telling there is freedom if they are not incarcerated for the fact of being gay, I do not deny not the fact that in italy or some other countries same sex marriage is not allowed, but that's about the idea of family not on perosnal freedom.

and as some said all the people here are comparing quality of life not freedom.




_____________________________

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(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 9:02:42 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkWolf6606

And again, "Americans" should in the name of accuracy, include all countries that are part of the Americas, though it is well known that most citizens of the United States in their culturally induced self-indulgence and self-deception refer to themselves as Americans without regard to any of the other cultures and peoples that inhabit the Americas.


This is true enough, although I think most people (including Americans) understand the distinction in context, whether "American" refers to a citizen of the United States or an inhabitant of the Americas. I don't think there's been that much confusion over it, especially since those outside of the Americas often use the label "America" or "American" similarly.

But I don't think it was really planned that way. Nobody on this continent called themselves "American" before the place was named for an Italian mapmaker.

I don't think it was a matter of self-indulgence or self-deception that citizens of the United States called themselves "American," since it was mainly to unify the colonies under a single nationality. We weren't just "Virginians" or "Pennsylvanians" or "New Yorkers," so they had to come up with a term to encompass all of the colonies which formed the original 13 States.

I also don't think there was any intentional disregard for the other cultures and peoples who inhabited the Americas. The Native tribes already had their own names and didn't identify as "American," and the other European colonies in the Western Hemisphere were still just colonies and identified mainly with their mother country.



I agree that the term "American" has nothing to do with self-indulgence or self-deception. The U.S. of A. is (with the possible exception of one place I can think of...isn't there a Tortuga of the Americas or something like that?) the only country that has the term "America" as part of the name of the country. Yes, we could go around saying that we are "United States of American", but, instead it is simply shortened to "American". There is no slight intended to any other American country, and no self-glorification of any sort. It isn't Brazil of America, or Argentina of America, or Mexico of America, but it is United States of America, and that is why we are referred to as "Americans".


I just look at it more as a geographical happenstance. I suppose we could have called ourselves the United States of North America and called ourselves "North Americans," which would be in line with the common usage of "norteamericano" in Latin American countries. Although that might also be somewhat confusing, since Mexico and Central America are considered to be on the North American continent. (Some even consider both North and South America to be a single continent.)

I guess it is somewhat odd considering the way many of these places got named. Take "Canada" for example. The name of Canada has been in use since the earliest European settlement in Canada, with the name originating from a First Nations word kanata (or canada) for "settlement", "village", or "land". So does that mean that "Canadians" translates as "Village People"?

And we Americans are named for an Italian explorer and mapmaker. I have nothing against Amerigo Vespucci, but if we're going to name our country after a person, why not George Washington? We could have called our country "Georgia," but there was already a state called "Georgia" which was named for a different guy named George. But we could have called ourselves "Washingtonians," I suppose. Too late to change it now, though.

On the other hand, since Washington was from Virginia, and Virginia was the oldest and largest of the colonies, we could have called the whole country "Virginia" (since they tried to claim most of it anyway) and called ourselves "Virginians" - or maybe just "Virgins" since we've always been so sweet, pure, and innocent.



< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 7/26/2013 9:04:35 AM >

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 9:06:55 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I just look at it more as a geographical happenstance. I suppose we could have called ourselves the United States of North America and called ourselves "North Americans," which would be in line with the common usage of "norteamericano" in Latin American countries. Although that might also be somewhat confusing, since Mexico and Central America are considered to be on the North American continent. (Some even consider both North and South America to be a single continent.)



Ahem! You left out Canadia eh?



Fly By Night,


Geddy Lee


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(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 9:38:05 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fr

I have to laugh, no one, (except muah) has ever put up the legal definition of freedom yet we see thread after thread and yammer on about it.

anyone want to take a shot at it LMAO




Well, I did post the link to Freedom House which outlines their guidelines and criteria for measuring freedom around the world. Some might disagree with their methodology, but I think it's a reasonably honest attempt to measure something that's actually rather complex, abstract, and hard to define.

As for the "legal definition of freedom," I must have missed that if you posted it before. Freedom seems to be a relative and fluctuating concept which changes with the times. During times of war or national emergency, we might be less free than we would be if it was a time of peace.

I think when we commonly say "freedom" in this context, it's a relative statement comparing our current situation to the way things used to be in previous eras when people weren't free. It also often involves comparisons to other nations and regimes around the world which are regarded as "not free."

However, I don't think that "freedom" would be the most accurate or objective term to describe the current situation we're living in. All I can really do is hope that our government lives by and upholds the principles they've sworn to preserve, protect, and defend. But if they don't, then I guess we're all screwed.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 9:51:56 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I just look at it more as a geographical happenstance. I suppose we could have called ourselves the United States of North America and called ourselves "North Americans," which would be in line with the common usage of "norteamericano" in Latin American countries. Although that might also be somewhat confusing, since Mexico and Central America are considered to be on the North American continent. (Some even consider both North and South America to be a single continent.)



Ahem! You left out Canadia eh?



Fly By Night,


Geddy Lee



Well, I thought about that as I was writing it, but then I thought including Canada might make the point a little more convoluted than it already was. I also have to confess that I'm not sure how Canadians are identified in Latin America. If a citizen of the United States would be a "norteamericano" in official documents in Mexico, then that may slight the Canadians who are also North Americans. But then I thought about Mexico and Central America also being part of the North American continent which also would have made the point I was making.

Even the Caribbean islands and West Indies could be geographically considered "North America" so that would make it even more confusing.

I'll admit I'm stumped. Maybe there's a new politically correct name we can call ourselves that won't slight or offend any of our neighbors on this continent.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 9:57:02 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
And why is it so easy for Brits to dismiss your PM's stance on internet freedom, yet assume our fundy right plays a tune we all march in lockstep with?

So you're whining about being generalised while you make generalisations about the whole of the UK?
Cute.
(FYI, Cameron started backtracking on his stance on "internet freedom" a couple of hours after it was announced.)

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 10:06:15 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
One of the posters here has already applied 'former colonials'.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I just look at it more as a geographical happenstance. I suppose we could have called ourselves the United States of North America and called ourselves "North Americans," which would be in line with the common usage of "norteamericano" in Latin American countries. Although that might also be somewhat confusing, since Mexico and Central America are considered to be on the North American continent. (Some even consider both North and South America to be a single continent.)



Ahem! You left out Canadia eh?



Fly By Night,


Geddy Lee



Well, I thought about that as I was writing it, but then I thought including Canada might make the point a little more convoluted than it already was. I also have to confess that I'm not sure how Canadians are identified in Latin America. If a citizen of the United States would be a "norteamericano" in official documents in Mexico, then that may slight the Canadians who are also North Americans. But then I thought about Mexico and Central America also being part of the North American continent which also would have made the point I was making.

Even the Caribbean islands and West Indies could be geographically considered "North America" so that would make it even more confusing.

I'll admit I'm stumped. Maybe there's a new politically correct name we can call ourselves that won't slight or offend any of our neighbors on this continent.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 10:22:59 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So the claim that gay couples aren't as free in Italy, the UK, and the other countries I named, is true, but you want to keep arguing that it isn't.

Carry on then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?




quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.




many places? so not all places? that's makes equal Europe and USA on this point, so change triviality to fix on.

If I were not sure you twist other words on purpose I'd think you are a bit dumb, but as neither I am dumb please stop twisting what it's been wrote.

by the way I was challenging your idea that this measures freedom looking if gay are allowed marriage, telling there is freedom if they are not incarcerated for the fact of being gay, I do not deny not the fact that in italy or some other countries same sex marriage is not allowed, but that's about the idea of family not on perosnal freedom.

and as some said all the people here are comparing quality of life not freedom.





again, twisting again, so answer me how many gay couples are legally married in Alabama? how many in Arizona? and in Alaska? and in Arkansas?
hint: the answer is 0

So to be married a gay couple in florida must move to some states of the north or in the west coast, this makes them as free as italian gays. You said two things that gay marriage are not allowed in the whole europe, and that gay in the usa have more freedom to marry than european ones, it's the second that's false.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 7/26/2013 10:29:22 AM >

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 10:39:32 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I just look at it more as a geographical happenstance. I suppose we could have called ourselves the United States of North America and called ourselves "North Americans," which would be in line with the common usage of "norteamericano" in Latin American countries. Although that might also be somewhat confusing, since Mexico and Central America are considered to be on the North American continent. (Some even consider both North and South America to be a single continent.)



Ahem! You left out Canadia eh?



Fly By Night,


Geddy Lee



Well, I thought about that as I was writing it, but then I thought including Canada might make the point a little more convoluted than it already was. I also have to confess that I'm not sure how Canadians are identified in Latin America. If a citizen of the United States would be a "norteamericano" in official documents in Mexico, then that may slight the Canadians who are also North Americans. But then I thought about Mexico and Central America also being part of the North American continent which also would have made the point I was making.

Even the Caribbean islands and West Indies could be geographically considered "North America" so that would make it even more confusing.

I'll admit I'm stumped. Maybe there's a new politically correct name we can call ourselves that won't slight or offend any of our neighbors on this continent.


In italian we use "statunitense" to define a person from the USA so no reference to america, but sometimes we also use the term "americano" if in the context is evident.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 10:53:35 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
Again, neither Europe, nor Arkansas are countries. The comparison remains between the freedom to get married in Italy, and the USA. The freedom to get married in England, and the USA.

Every single legally married couple in America remains legally married no matter what state they travel to. Arkansas can't undo same sex marriages from say, Vermont.


There is no way you can spin this so that the USA doesn't have same sex couples who are legally married, but the countries I named do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So the claim that gay couples aren't as free in Italy, the UK, and the other countries I named, is true, but you want to keep arguing that it isn't.

Carry on then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?




quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.




many places? so not all places? that's makes equal Europe and USA on this point, so change triviality to fix on.

If I were not sure you twist other words on purpose I'd think you are a bit dumb, but as neither I am dumb please stop twisting what it's been wrote.

by the way I was challenging your idea that this measures freedom looking if gay are allowed marriage, telling there is freedom if they are not incarcerated for the fact of being gay, I do not deny not the fact that in italy or some other countries same sex marriage is not allowed, but that's about the idea of family not on perosnal freedom.

and as some said all the people here are comparing quality of life not freedom.





again, twisting again, so answer me how many gay couples are legally married in Alabama? how many in Arizona? and in Alaska? and in Arkansas?
hint: the answer is 0

So to be married a gay couple in florida must move to some states of the north or in the west coast, this makes them as free as italian gays. You said two things that gay marriage are not allowed in the whole europe, and that gay in the usa have more freedom to marry than european ones, it's the second that's false.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 11:19:48 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

somepeople take days to come back with nothing more than obfuscation....dont hold ya breath :)


He is still trying that with others. Got to love his semantics though.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 1:47:04 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
And if you are legally married in spain and you move to italy you still are married and for schengen treaty any citizen of a member state is free to move in any other member state without limitations. So Italy and spain are not in the same relationship as Mexico and USA you can't just say I consider only the country that fits to my point and deny existence of any other, if you live in florida you have to move in another state to marry period.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again, neither Europe, nor Arkansas are countries. The comparison remains between the freedom to get married in Italy, and the USA. The freedom to get married in England, and the USA.

Every single legally married couple in America remains legally married no matter what state they travel to. Arkansas can't undo same sex marriages from say, Vermont.


There is no way you can spin this so that the USA doesn't have same sex couples who are legally married, but the countries I named do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So the claim that gay couples aren't as free in Italy, the UK, and the other countries I named, is true, but you want to keep arguing that it isn't.

Carry on then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

There is no place in the US where it is illegal to be gay either, so that's a non sequitur. There are many places in the USA where a same sex couple has the freedom to go down to the courthouse and get a marriage license.

Can you provide a factual link to all of these same sex couples who *currently* enjoy the freedom to get a marriage license in the UK, Italy, and the other places I named?




quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I don't understand the whole point of the discussion here, it's all gone in the "I've got this so I'm better" "No I'm better 'cos I've got that", universal health care is a not a matter of freedom is related to solidarety, gay marriage is about cultural differences in how the people of a country see the concept of family, but there is no european country where is forbidden to be gay.




many places? so not all places? that's makes equal Europe and USA on this point, so change triviality to fix on.

If I were not sure you twist other words on purpose I'd think you are a bit dumb, but as neither I am dumb please stop twisting what it's been wrote.

by the way I was challenging your idea that this measures freedom looking if gay are allowed marriage, telling there is freedom if they are not incarcerated for the fact of being gay, I do not deny not the fact that in italy or some other countries same sex marriage is not allowed, but that's about the idea of family not on perosnal freedom.

and as some said all the people here are comparing quality of life not freedom.





again, twisting again, so answer me how many gay couples are legally married in Alabama? how many in Arizona? and in Alaska? and in Arkansas?
hint: the answer is 0

So to be married a gay couple in florida must move to some states of the north or in the west coast, this makes them as free as italian gays. You said two things that gay marriage are not allowed in the whole europe, and that gay in the usa have more freedom to marry than european ones, it's the second that's false.




(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 1:51:52 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
powergamez1 if there was no schengen treaty you could have half a point but now by fixing on two country and forgetting the rest is just ridiculous, I could just be like you ignoring everything doesn't much with my argumentation ang go on saying that in spain you can get married in every single place while in the usa you can't ang go on just trolling like you are doing.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 2:14:00 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I have to laugh, no one, (except muah) has ever put up the legal definition of freedom yet we see thread after thread and yammer on about it.


If it wasn't Gay marriage or socialised medical you got it one up on most people.

T^T

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 2:58:24 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

I have to laugh, no one, (except muah) has ever put up the legal definition of freedom yet we see thread after thread and yammer on about it.


If it wasn't Gay marriage or socialised medical you got it one up on most people.

T^T


the thread went on the road on just comparing life quality on the second page... maybe we are just so free we don't know even more what is freedom and how it is not having it

and by the way if it was gay marriage you just have been liberated congratulation.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 7/26/2013 3:00:38 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Who are more free... Americans or Europeans - 7/26/2013 3:22:37 PM   
slavekate80


Posts: 362
Joined: 7/4/2013
Status: offline
I think this question is hard to answer because it depends on how you define freedom, and which European country the USA is being compared to. And, for that matter, which US state, though the differences between the states aren't typically as striking as differences between countries.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 160
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