RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/29/2013 6:24:30 PM)

quote:


Party planner Cynthia Payne has been acquitted of nine charges of controlling prostitutes at her home in south west London.


From what I heard it was the first case ever in the UK in which some of the clients turned up in court in support of the accused 'Madam'. Quite a watershed, really.




TNDommeK -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/29/2013 7:48:52 PM)

See I think that's nice.
That's what I call loyal clientele.




MariaB -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 12:21:29 AM)

She became a bit of celebrity too. The media loved her, the tv chat shows loved her and I think her book became a best seller.




kalikshama -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 5:36:28 AM)

So, was she ever convicted of prostitution? The only charges I saw in the three articles I read were being a madam, running a brothel, and controlling prostitutes (acquitted.)




MariaB -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 5:49:26 AM)

The law is tricky in the UK. Its legal to be a prostitute and its legal to be a pro Domme but it isn't legal to run a brothel.
A brothel is seen as more than one prostitute or pro Domme working together which means when a pro Domme doubles with another Domme or shares a dungeon, as in a co-operative, if she gets caught she will be charged for running a brothel.

I know she did time, something like 18 months that was shortened to 6 months but I suspect she knew a few high court judges who put a good word in for her!!

The Domme who trained me always said, 'Make sure you have a lawyer, a police officer and a member of parliament as part of your clientèle. If you can get a high court judge then for goodness sake keep him sweet because you may well need him one day'




evesgrden -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 6:35:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anatolium

quote:

fin dommes don't usually have sex with their clients but are still being called prostitutes?


If there isn't sexual contact, it's not prostitution.
If the money isn't for the sexual gratification, it's not prostitution.

Anyone who says otherwise, is logically challenged.


This is why I mentioned Swaggart because that situation makes what you just said rather foggy.

Swaggart was with a prostitue.
He payed her for sexual gratification.

However... she never touched him. She masturbated in front of him.. that's what she was paid for because that was how he got his sexual gratification. (Or perhaps he felt he was sinning less if there was no physical contact.. I dunno).

Point being.. I don't know how the law would look upon that. Was it prostitution or not? And I'm not asking the question here, I'm just pointing out how murky it can be. However, the activity of the prostitute in this case is the same as the activity of the findomme in many cases. The person who pays, is not paying to touch, but is watching and talking to and getting off on the behavior of the person they are paying.

Person being paid masturbates in front of the person who is paying.
In Swaggart's situation he paid a hooker to do that and that's quite within the repertoire of things prostitutes do as part of their job.
In the submissive's sistuation he pays a findomme to do that and it's quite within the repertoire of kinky services findommes do as part of their job. He's paying someone do something that they both know he'll get off on.

Rose by any other name in some ways. But findommes live a much safer life, much less demanding physically, no risk of STD's, being robbed, murdered, they choose their clients, and so forth. A much smarter way of making money off sex than actually making physical contact and screwing or giving bj's etc. No pimps, no cops to deal with. Just don't screw the IRS.

But if sexual arousal had nothing to do with it, I doubt anyone would pay for it.






AllisonWilder -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 11:19:03 AM)

I don't understand why people are so hung up on labels. They're just words angrily typed into someones internet machine and posted on the CM forums. You (generalized you) can call me a prostitute until you're blue in the face and it just doesn't matter. The only label that I care about is one that I put on myself.

Call me a whore, a prostitute, an exploiter of weak men, a thief, a swindler, anything you want. It's just a grown-up version of schoolyard bullying where kids tossed around words like 'icky' and 'cooties' like they actually mattered.



Words only have the power that you give to them.




Edit: This wasn't directed at evesgrden, I just hit 'reply' since it was the last post.




Spiritedsub2 -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 11:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

<big snip>

But if sexual arousal had nothing to do with it, I doubt anyone would pay for it.



No shit. One sentence cuts through mountains of bullshit. QFT.

Edit: evesgrden, the bullshit I referenced was not the remainder of your post.




LadyPact -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 11:56:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2


quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

<big snip>

But if sexual arousal had nothing to do with it, I doubt anyone would pay for it.



No shit. One sentence cuts through mountains of bullshit. QFT.


I don't really know about that.

There really are folks on the planet who do just want someone to pay attention to them, whether sexual arousal is a part of it or not. Haven't you ever known anyone, even in vanilla land, who tried to buy your friendship or loyalty with little gifts or material things? That female co-worker who bakes those special treats for the office on a regular basis, but you never hear her talk about any friends she has or social events she attends. Maybe the guy who is always willing to do handyman type chores but there's nobody connected to his life that he doesn't *do* things for?

While I'm not trying to suggest that this is the entire base of this type of behavior, every female has run across that guy in her life who tried to buy her.




SeekingTrinity -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 12:21:50 PM)

Sadly I think some people resort to calling someone names just because they don't have a point that can stand on its own merit. It's exactly like you said...a sad "adult" version of schoolyard bully bullshit. So some will try to think of the most hurtful things they could spew and then fling it like the sludge left at the bottom of their proverbial tank.

There are a number of things kink related that arent my cup of tea. I personally don't derive anything from financial domination, but that doesnt give me the right to start stoning those of you who choose to participate. If the FinDomme and the finsub are happy in their arrangement, its not my place or my right to judge you. It's not my place or my right to hurl hateful words at you. In short, it's really none of my fucking business what you choose to do. [:)]




TNDommeK -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 1:17:49 PM)

Welcome back Allison. I often mention you here.
Your comment was great.

I think that when ignorant people (people who are actually ignorant to facts) come over here wanting info about FD, they need to see more that just us being bashed, being called whores, etc. so I think that's the main reason I'm so passionate about this. There are people who get hung up on labels. That being said, what is the perfect sub for me, wanted to educate himself about seeing a FD or a Pro, and wasn't interested in prostitutes. Well, reading some of these threads, he will clearly see what a few ppl feel we are. Perhaps he'll get turned off perhaps he'll think for himself. Who knows! I'm constantly educated over here, so I try to return the favor. Some ppl just do not want to learn.

And I agree with LP on her above thread, not everything that is paid for is about sexual gratification.

That might be a shitty example but I did just wake up. Haven't had coffee so brain isn't working. :)




AllisonWilder -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 1:37:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Welcome back Allison. I often mention you here.
Your comment was great.

I think that when ignorant people (people who are actually ignorant to facts) come over here wanting info about FD, they need to see more that just us being bashed, being called whores, etc. so I think that's the main reason I'm so passionate about this. There are people who get hung up on labels. That being said, what is the perfect sub for me, wanted to educate himself about seeing a FD or a Pro, and wasn't interested in prostitutes. Well, reading some of these threads, he will clearly see what a few ppl feel we are. Perhaps he'll get turned off perhaps he'll think for himself. Who knows! I'm constantly educated over here, so I try to return the favor. Some ppl just do not want to learn.

And I agree with LP on her above thread, not everything that is paid for is about sexual gratification.

That might be a shitty example but I did just wake up. Haven't had coffee so brain isn't working. :)


I guess the way I see it is that if a sub came here, saw that some people think of findommes as whores and can't generate his own opinion based on more than just what some people think, then he most likely wouldn't have been a good fit for me anyway.

Some people will always see us as whores. I know I'm not a whore, the subs that I have relationships with know that I'm not a whore. I refuse to expend all sorts of energy trying to educate people and say that I'm not this and I'm not that because I know it's unlikely that I'll ever change someones opinion. I don't mind answering questions, explaining how things work with me, etc., but there's just no point in my mind to go around and around arguing the whole 'you're a whore/I'm not a whore' thing.

And thanks for the welcome back, I never left, I just stopped posting. :)




AllisonWilder -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/30/2013 1:39:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Sadly I think some people resort to calling someone names just because they don't have a point that can stand on its own merit. It's exactly like you said...a sad "adult" version of schoolyard bully bullshit. So some will try to think of the most hurtful things they could spew and then fling it like the sludge left at the bottom of their proverbial tank.

There are a number of things kink related that arent my cup of tea. I personally don't derive anything from financial domination, but that doesnt give me the right to start stoning those of you who choose to participate. If the FinDomme and the finsub are happy in their arrangement, its not my place or my right to judge you. It's not my place or my right to hurl hateful words at you. In short, it's really none of my fucking business what you choose to do. [:)]


I feel the same way about things that I'm not into. I think some things are absolutely disgusting, but if it makes two consenting adults happy, then so be it!




dink22 -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 11:13:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
I absolutely disagree with that. Kink is very much my sexual orientation for me. It's a need, not a want, and not something I can go without.

I can physically go through the motions of vanilla sex, but it does nothing to turn me on or satisfy me. It doesn't even feel like sex to me, anymore than giving somebody a massage feels like sex.

Without kink, I have no sexuality, which means that it's spot on in being a sexual orientation for me.

Thank you for the catch, Ishtar. I missed the "for everybody" part of that statement. For some people, it is a need, but for some of us, it really only is a want or a preference. For those of us that it is just an option, it's really hard to compare it to gay or straight. Since it's a take it or leave it thing for people like Me, it's something that some can walk away from, rather than consider it a sexual orientation.




Okay. I hope you understand that's a CRITICAL difference. Because as a sub, I CAN'T "take it or leave it." If you really want to understand femdom as a TRUE sexuality, you need to know that there are some of us, like me, who, like gays, simply can't change. I will never be a top. I can act like one, but it is unexciting. Wish it wasn't so. My life would have been so much easier if I had flexibility.




dink22 -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 11:29:50 AM)

Quite a few people seem to be missing the point. There is a big difference when money is introduced. Any activity involving money is different from all the other fetishes. Money infers "paying for it," as in ---"not genuine, done ONLY for money"--- ---"no real passion, only a cold commercial transaction"-- ---"I would never want to do this with you, but since you're paying me ---money"---

That's what it is. It's about money. It is definitely NOT the same as other fetishes. That's laughable bullshit, and not all of us submissive men are weak and gullible to such bullshit.




UllrsIshtar -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 11:43:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22

Money infers "paying for it," as in ---"not genuine, done ONLY for money"--- ---"no real passion, only a cold commercial transaction"-- ---"I would never want to do this with you, but since you're paying me ---money"---



Absolutely not. It's not a matter of 'I only do this because you're paying for it' it's a matter of the kink about it itself being a turn on. When I control a guy's money, I control his time, his resources, and his efforts. I can make him suffer for me. Deprive him. With every cent I take, he sacrifices.

That's as hot as a guy sacrificing his skin and tears to my whip. It's the same kind of mindset it creates in me, and I get similar things out of it. To me, financial domination is ALL about the kink, and not at all about the money. I don't need the money, nor do I need the presents (in fact, as a rule I never use findomme money on anything but unnecessary luxuries because I love the idea of him sacrificing his time, effort and work, for something I don't even need).

The amounts involved are irrelevant to me, which should tell you right there it's not about the money. It's about the control, and the mind game of making him give up part of his self, and his identity for me. In fact, the more a guy is conceptually against the idea of financial domination, the more rewarding it is to get him to do it anyways.




LadyPact -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 12:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dink22
Okay. I hope you understand that's a CRITICAL difference. Because as a sub, I CAN'T "take it or leave it." If you really want to understand femdom as a TRUE sexuality, you need to know that there are some of us, like me, who, like gays, simply can't change. I will never be a top. I can act like one, but it is unexciting. Wish it wasn't so. My life would have been so much easier if I had flexibility.

I did, which is exactly why I thanked her for the catch.

However, that is why it isn't like being gay. For some of us, it's a take it or leave it thing. If anything, rather than saying it's an absolute for everyone, it also has to be accepted that some folks just engage in BDSM for fun. That crosses both genders and roles. There are also folks who are male submissives who are take it or leave it, too. Just like some female subs and both genders of Dominants.

If it helps any, I couldn't be a bottom any more than you could be a top. There's no joy in it for Me, and frankly, there's no turn on in it from My perspective. That's why I am a top and a Dominant (two different things to Me, but that's another thread) is because that's where the excitement, both sexual and non, happens to lie. Power is an absolutely amazing aphrodisiac, as far as I'm concerned, and people find power from an unlimited amount of sources.

As I see it, there's really nothing about fin kink that I can't compare to something about lifestyle kink which would be one of My personal turn ons, that can't be seen similarly. I'm actually very much into people submitting to acts that they don't necessarily want to do. It's a HUGE thing for Me to conduct scenes that put people in a position of mental or emotional anguish, but their obedience to Me or their own submission overrides that. Since I know that stuff turns Me on, I can absolutely understand how people can use fin kink for the same thing and get off on it in the same way that I do when I walk across a room and slap somebody across the face.





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 12:23:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The law is tricky in the UK. Its legal to be a prostitute and its legal to be a pro Domme but it isn't legal to run a brothel.

Perhaps you could explain that to the police who arrest several dozen girls every single night in our towns for prostitution - if you think it's legal in the UK??
Sorry, no it isn't.
These girls are arrested, kept in a cell overnight, and charged in front of the beak the following morning for prostitution. Most get away with a small fine and some community service but some of the regular girls get to serve time in prison.
Although the physical act of paying for sexual services in itself is not a crime, just about everything else to do with it, is, including how it is procured.
Check Wiki:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom

And as much as Madam Cyn was acquitted on a lot of charges, she said in a "HardTalk" show on the BBC that she did serve a short custodial sentence several times during her life as a "Madam".
She was headline news for quite some time here and quite the celebraty!


ETA: It's a bit like the newish law that allows a 16yo to legally smoke tobacco. The problem is, there's no way a 16yo can legally get some to smoke without somebody breaking a law or two.
Prostitution is similar in that respect: paying for sex is ok but getting the service is illegal. lol.
And... according to my local cop shop, online situations are not exempt and are subject to the same laws. So effectively, being a practicing FinDomme could be classified as being illegal, cyber or otherwise.




Zonie63 -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 12:55:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anatolium

quote:

fin dommes don't usually have sex with their clients but are still being called prostitutes?


If there isn't sexual contact, it's not prostitution.
If the money isn't for the sexual gratification, it's not prostitution.

Anyone who says otherwise, is logically challenged.


This is why I mentioned Swaggart because that situation makes what you just said rather foggy.

Swaggart was with a prostitue.
He payed her for sexual gratification.

However... she never touched him. She masturbated in front of him.. that's what she was paid for because that was how he got his sexual gratification. (Or perhaps he felt he was sinning less if there was no physical contact.. I dunno).



I find it interesting that Swaggart has gotten involved in the discussion. What struck me about that whole Swaggart thing is that it didn't really matter if it was "prostitution" in the legal or literal sense, since Swaggart still got up before his flock and tearfully confessed "I have sinned!" One of the more enjoyable and entertaining moments in American television.

Still, when many of us have been brought up with the idea that any form of sexual arousal is "sin" (even if we reject the idea later in life), it still sits in the backs of our minds and might lump every sex-related industry in the same category. A large part of the populace is still judgmental and puritanical (but will still forgive provided one's confession is tearful enough), even if one can make legal distinctions defining what is prostitution and what is not.





MAINEiacMISTRESS -> RE: Financial Domination / What are your thoughts & Why ? (7/31/2013 1:03:21 PM)

Several people have posted good points. There is something else it seems EVERYONE has forgotten about, and that is the fact that up until only a generation or two ago, before women became regular members of the full-time career population, that HUSBANDS financially dominated their wives. It was a simple "accepted fact" traditionally that when "the little wife" made any money as a seamstress, or baby sitter, hair dresser, or whatever, that she would give a sum or even all of it to the husband, who would then regulate where and on what she was allowed to spend it. Often wives received an "allowance" from the husband. He would often be the one to Manage the household money, usually pooling her money with his own to buy something (sometimes go out drinking, golfing, or other entertainment with his friends, with HER money---sound familiar?).
Even just recently when I owned a retail store and would be waiting on married women, I'd often hear the comment, "I need to ask my husband's permission before I can buy this," even though she had a higher paying job, the money was HERS, and it was a relatively low-priced item (say, $20-$40). The wife would then either call hubby to ask permission or return with him in a few days and he would hand Me the cash himself for the item. (In an aside here: watching this happen BLEW MY MIND. I can't IMAGINE having to ask permission to spend My own money...W.T.F.???)
,
Their situation in essence is exactly the same thing as many fin-Dommes (IN ESTABLISHED D/s RELATIONSHIPS) do with their subs. They Manage and Control the sub(s) money and spending habits, give them an allowance and/or financial schedule to follow.

I'd classify it more as "Role-Reversal" if anything. I think the younger generation doesn't realize what traditional male and female roles really used to be like...the way they don't know what living with rotary phones, vinyl records, rabbit ear TV's, etc. was like. Not that they are stupid, just that they weren't around when it was considered "normal". They freak out about someone controlling/demanding someone else's money, but if put in a role-reversal context it does make sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't really know about that.

There really are folks on the planet who do just want someone to pay attention to them, whether sexual arousal is a part of it or not. Haven't you ever known anyone, even in vanilla land, who tried to buy your friendship or loyalty with little gifts or material things? That female co-worker who bakes those special treats for the office on a regular basis, but you never hear her talk about any friends she has or social events she attends. Maybe the guy who is always willing to do handyman type chores but there's nobody connected to his life that he doesn't *do* things for?

While I'm not trying to suggest that this is the entire base of this type of behavior, every female has run across that guy in her life who tried to buy her.






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