Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..."


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 5:36:22 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 5:37:20 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

radical pro-lifers...

Granting that "radical pro-lifers" take some extreme positions, 20 weeks is not one of them.

Austria:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Belgium:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Bulgaria:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Czech Republic:  12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Denmark:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
France:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Germany:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Greece:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Hungary:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Italy:           12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Latvia:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Lithuania:       12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Luxembourg:      12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Netherlands:     13 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Poland:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Portugal:        16 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Romania:         14 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovakia:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovenia:        10 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Sweden:          18 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter

Source

K.



Yea, but seriously, how much fun would it be to start a thread bashing those countries. Better to stick with what they know.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 5:42:14 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
How many crack babies have you adopted ?

That's a damn good line. I think I just might use it to silence (or at least thoroughly confuse) radical pro-lifers in the future...



Why stop with the prolifers? If something makes sense, it should be used across the board. If you have a problem with spousal abuse, make sure you are willing to take that abused wife in and support her or don't suggest she leave her husband. If you see parents abusing their kids, keep you mouth shut unless you are willing to adopt them. Unless you are willing to be part of the solution keep your thoughts to yourself. Yea that makes sense



The next argument will be- isnt it better to feel the pain of death for 20 minutes- rather then a lifetime- 72 years of it.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 6:29:54 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them?

Because the forced birther leaders have bad intentions and have demonstrated their mendacity for decades. And no scientist is really in disagreement on the issue, see Kirata's post from the forced birthers that actually confirms the fact that a fetus cannot experience pain before about the 26th week.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 7:22:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN.
These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted.
In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so.


The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb.

Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 7:26:27 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight.
But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them?


Because some would rather be aggressive in their disagreements and divert attention from the actual debate. If you accuse those who disagree of lying, then the lying becomes the topic, not the salient facts of the disagreement. It also puts those who disagree on the defensive.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 8:48:01 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I'm no expert on fetal development, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

But I can't resist asking: Why must we assume that those disagreeing with us are lying? Scientists differ on all manner of questions. Mightn't this be one of them?


If you had reviewed the link provided, you would have known that there is NO SCIENTIFIC QUESTION here. SCIENTISTS do not differ. It is only the non-scientist who are making any other assertions.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 8:50:38 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN.
These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted.
In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so.


The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb.

Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate.



You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can.

Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex.

I await your respons.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 8:58:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN.
These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted.
In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so.

The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb.
Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate.

You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can.
Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex.
I await your respons.


**Yawn**

What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:12:45 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that.


And my information disagrees with K's.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:22:40 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
That's the beauty of science. Shit is true whether you believe it or not.

But this thread has nothing to do with science so I don't see how that is relevant. NO scientist EVER would say "End of discussion". That's not how science works. It's NEVER the end of the discussion. I'm pro-abortion (I hate facile turns of speech). But exactly because I DO care about science you won't find me arguing that this discussion is over.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:26:57 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can.

Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex.

I await your respons.


Ah... right!!

So I smash your head in with a 1000lb wrecking ball.
I noted that your body didn't seem to register any pain.
So I conclude that you need your head to register pain.
Got it!! 

So in my next experiment, I push someone under a Greyhound bus while it is travelling at 50mph.
I notice that the body didn't seem to register any pain despite the head still being attached to it.
Conclusion: Your head is irrelevant to register pain - I've seen the proof first hand.
Got it!! 

Confused??? Yeah, so would thousands of others be too.
You don't actually need to get hit by a fucking bus to know it fucking HURTS!!
More recent study has proven that other organs play a major part in registering pain - not just the brain.
Ergo, you don't actually NEED to physically test a fetus to see that it registers pain.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:29:49 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		A question for you all.... how do you determine the difference, in another, between pain and pleasure?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:35:33 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Tazz, I thought medical professions take an oath to do no harm?


This thread is cheerleading for killing babies- because they wont feel the pain.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:36:28 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		No, its not. Someone specifically may be, but the medical community isnt "cheerleading" for anything here.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:45:00 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process.


Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:45:40 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can.

Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex.

I await your respons.


Ah... right!!

So I smash your head in with a 1000lb wrecking ball.
I noted that your body didn't seem to register any pain.
So I conclude that you need your head to register pain.
Got it!! 

So in my next experiment, I push someone under a Greyhound bus while it is travelling at 50mph.
I notice that the body didn't seem to register any pain despite the head still being attached to it.
Conclusion: Your head is irrelevant to register pain - I've seen the proof first hand.
Got it!! 

Confused??? Yeah, so would thousands of others be too.
You don't actually need to get hit by a fucking bus to know it fucking HURTS!!
More recent study has proven that other organs play a major part in registering pain - not just the brain.
Ergo, you don't actually NEED to physically test a fetus to see that it registers pain.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed.


Yes but you actually need the necessary neural anatomy to feel pain and this anatomy is not present at 20 weeks gestation.
Saying a 20 week fetus feels pain makes as much sense as saying that a man with no arms feels pain when you smash his fingers with a hammer.

He has no fucking fingers.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:46:21 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does any of this have to do with the assertion that -- without the required structures at that phase of development -- it is literally impossible for the fetus to EXPERIENCE PAIN.
These references aren't talking about fetuses, and I do not believe extrapolating from DEVELOPED, VIABLE ACTUALLY BORN PEOPLE to DEVELOPING FETUSES isn't warranted.
In other words, a 17 year old isn't a fetus. Is it intellectually honest to assert that they are similar enough for the results to be relevant? I don't think so.

The references demonstrate that a cerebral cortex is not necessary for a human to feel pain. That would be true for a 17 year old, and would be true for a developing fetus in the womb.
Basing the ability for a fetus to feel pain on the development of the cerebral cortex isn't accurate. That is what those links all demonstrate.

You have a point. You need to actual TEST A FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN before asserting that it can.
Please provide links to the peer reviewed studies where they tested a FETUS' ABILITY TO EXPERIENCE PAIN. As opposed to a reflex.
I await your respons.


**Yawn**

What a lame argument. Do you not see the inherent flaw in your argument? Basing the ability to feel pain on the presence of he cerebral cortex (and having the connections to it) is wrong. Flat out. K's links show that.



Don't you understand that I'm not talking about extrapolating. I'm talking about DIRECT EXPERIMENTS. Where you expose a fetus to stimuli and you determine SCIENTIFICALLY if they have in face EXPERIENCED PAIN rather than display a reflex.

So, I continue to await your enumeration of these direct studies.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:46:49 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process.


Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits.

Maybe you should move out in the woods with no electricity, shelter, tools or clothing if you hate science so much

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:56:06 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The "science" is an attempt to feel good over the abortion process.


Most science these days is for the benefit of corporate profits.


Science is only good if you agree with it?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.105