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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:58:05 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Yes but you actually need the necessary neural anatomy to feel pain and this anatomy is not present at 20 weeks gestation.
Saying a 20 week fetus feels pain makes as much sense as saying that a man with no arms feels pain when you smash his fingers with a hammer.

He has no fucking fingers.

And you missed a bit Hilly...
It has been shown that other organs are more receptive to pain than the brain and they are present before 20 weeks.
It has also been shown that certain parts of the brain that have been assumed as being the pain receptors have been completely missing in some patients but they still register pain.
So that study appears to show that it isn't necessary to have those particular links to the cortex in order for the recipient to feel pain. Ergo, those parts of the cerebral cortex are not necessary to be present in order to feel pain.

This is the whole crux of the argument.
Whilst some say these neural links are necessary, others have proven that they aren't.

I guess it depends which side of the coin you wanna believe.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 10:00:26 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Yes but you actually need the necessary neural anatomy to feel pain and this anatomy is not present at 20 weeks gestation.
Saying a 20 week fetus feels pain makes as much sense as saying that a man with no arms feels pain when you smash his fingers with a hammer.

He has no fucking fingers.

And you missed a bit Hilly...
It has been shown that other organs are more receptive to pain than the brain and they are present before 20 weeks.
It has also been shown that certain parts of the brain that have been assumed as being the pain receptors have been completely missing in some patients but they still register pain.
So that study appears to show that it isn't necessary to have those particular links to the cortex in order for the recipient to feel pain. Ergo, those parts of the cerebral cortex are not necessary to be present in order to feel pain.

This is the whole crux of the argument.
Whilst some say these neural links are necessary, others have proven that they aren't.

I guess it depends which side of the coin you wanna believe.

Some of the organs are there but in order to feel pain, they must ALL be there.
Just like the aforementioned fingers. the whole network to feel pain is there but there are no fingers therefore, there can be no pain from smashing fingers.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 10:06:50 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Some of the organs are there but in order to feel pain, they must ALL be there.
Just like the aforementioned fingers. the whole network to feel pain is there but there are no fingers therefore, there can be no pain from smashing fingers.

Actually, they proved that only some of certain organs needed to be there - not all of them.

And if they banged the end of the stump where the arms were chopped off - where does it hurt for the patient??
Would that be fingers? Hand? Elbow?
I wouldn't like to make any hard and fast predictions but I'll hazard a guess that it'll hurt at the stump.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 10:14:01 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		That's why I said fingers fd. Ya moving the goal posts, or goal, or wicket or whatever the fuck you Brits kick and throw balls at over there.

Think of the digestive system, If a fetus has a mouth, anus, liver and small intestine, it still is incapable of eating because there are missing parts.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 10:52:16 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Some of the organs are there but in order to feel pain, they must ALL be there.
Just like the aforementioned fingers. the whole network to feel pain is there but there are no fingers therefore, there can be no pain from smashing fingers.

Actually, they proved that only some of certain organs needed to be there - not all of them.

And if they banged the end of the stump where the arms were chopped off - where does it hurt for the patient??
Would that be fingers? Hand? Elbow?
I wouldn't like to make any hard and fast predictions but I'll hazard a guess that it'll hurt at the stump.

Not necessarily. I suggest you google "phantom pain": amputees sometimes feel pain in limbs or extremities that aren't there anymore. That would put sensation of pain in the full neural network, rather than the pain receptors alone, wouldn't it?

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:19:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Don't you understand that I'm not talking about extrapolating. I'm talking about DIRECT EXPERIMENTS. Where you expose a fetus to stimuli and you determine SCIENTIFICALLY if they have in face EXPERIENCED PAIN rather than display a reflex.
So, I continue to await your enumeration of these direct studies.


They haven't been done. I know the angle you're taking. I can take it, too. Have they done any experiments showing that these are nothing but reactions, and not feeling of pain?

You put your hand on a stove burner. You will jerk your hand off as a reaction prior to the pain being registered. The pain will register and you will feel it, but your body has been designed to react prior to the pain being felt in some cases.

I hope you aren't backing evolution as science. If you are, care to show any "direct experiments" where life was created out of inanimate materials? Or that one species has evolved into another species with a different number of chromosomes?

I conclude with a quote:

"Most institutions demand unqualified faith; but the institution of science makes skepticism a virtue. "
-Robert King Merton, sociologist (1910-2003)

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:22:04 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Yes but you actually need the necessary neural anatomy to feel pain and this anatomy is not present at 20 weeks gestation.
Saying a 20 week fetus feels pain makes as much sense as saying that a man with no arms feels pain when you smash his fingers with a hammer.
He has no fucking fingers.

And you missed a bit Hilly...
It has been shown that other organs are more receptive to pain than the brain and they are present before 20 weeks.
It has also been shown that certain parts of the brain that have been assumed as being the pain receptors have been completely missing in some patients but they still register pain.
So that study appears to show that it isn't necessary to have those particular links to the cortex in order for the recipient to feel pain. Ergo, those parts of the cerebral cortex are not necessary to be present in order to feel pain.
This is the whole crux of the argument.
Whilst some say these neural links are necessary, others have proven that they aren't.
I guess it depends which side of the coin you wanna believe.

Some of the organs are there but in order to feel pain, they must ALL be there.
Just like the aforementioned fingers. the whole network to feel pain is there but there are no fingers therefore, there can be no pain from smashing fingers.


Really?!?


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:25:09 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
That's why I said fingers fd. Ya moving the goal posts, or goal, or wicket or whatever the fuck you Brits kick and throw balls at over there.
Think of the digestive system, If a fetus has a mouth, anus, liver and small intestine, it still is incapable of eating because there are missing parts.


Actually, they can still eat. They will end up dying because they can't get rid of the waste materials, but, they can eat. Think of those people who have had their gall bladders removed, etc. They are not "whole," but they can still function.

A fetus without hands and fingers may not be able to feel hand and finger pain, but an abortion takes out more than just hands and fingers, no?


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:27:18 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Aren't they going to need a stomach and a large intestine as well to get any benefit from eating?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:32:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		He is taking eating as ingestion. I take eating as both ingestion and digestion... depends on how you view the word.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:38:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Aren't they going to need a stomach and a large intestine as well to get any benefit from eating?


Oh. Digestion, you mean? You need a mouth to eat, no?


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 11:49:50 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Eating is useless unless you can digest what you eat.
Ask a bulimic.
If you're not equating eating and digestion, what are you bringing to this debate besides evasion and hairsplitting?
(Bear in mind that your reference to "waste materials" implies that you think the hypothetical freak under discussion can digest to some extent without some of the most important parts of their digestive tract: it isn't "waste" until it comes out of the far end of your intestines.)

ETA: teeth, saliva glands and a tongue are often handy for eating as well, you'll find.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 8/8/2013 11:51:04 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 12:04:10 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Eating is useless unless you can digest what you eat.
Ask a bulimic.
If you're not equating eating and digestion, what are you bringing to this debate besides evasion and hairsplitting?
(Bear in mind that your reference to "waste materials" implies that you think the hypothetical freak under discussion can digest to some extent without some of the most important parts of their digestive tract: it isn't "waste" until it comes out of the far end of your intestines.)
ETA: teeth, saliva glands and a tongue are often handy for eating as well, you'll find.


Anything not absorbed by the intestine (assuming everything is still hooked up), will be waste material.

Hilly stated:
    quote:

    Think of the digestive system, If a fetus has a mouth, anus, liver and small intestine, it still is incapable of eating because there are missing parts.


Basing he ability to eat on *all* the parts being required to be there isn't completely accurate to this conversation. The presence of the cerebral cortex isn't necessary to feel pain, as has been demonstrated. He got picky. I got picky.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 12:16:32 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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According to Merriam Webster, "eating" is all about taking in stuff through the mouth 'as food'.
It doesn't mention anything about ingestion or digestion - just taking it in via the mouth.

So as far as all the other 'missing parts' are concerned, they just don't count as part of 'eating'. 
All you need is a mouth and something to put through it 'as food'.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 12:19:18 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		If it's "food" then you need to digest it after it's been eaten. Try looking that one up (food).

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 12:27:38 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If it's "food" then you need to digest it after it's been eaten. Try looking that one up (food).

That may be so.
But, that is something else - not "eating".

I don't think anyone is arguing about what you or your body needs to do to get anything beneficial from it and to dispose of the waste properly.

But "eating" is just putting stuff in your mouth as food.

But we digress......
It has been shown that the cerebral cortex is not required for a person to feel pain.
So, if a fetus has the other necessary organ(s), then one must assume (because we have no other way to communicate with said incomplete life form), that they also have the ability to feel pain even if they have no other way to communicate that to us other than through a reflex movement.

And unless someone can categorically prove otherwise, It's a fair assumption to make.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 12:37:48 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		If you're putting it in your mouth as food, then you plan to digest it. The OED says so:
"any nutritious substance that people or animals eat or drink or that plants absorb in order to maintain life and growth"
So without the necessary plumbing south of your mouth, then whatever you put in your mouth isn't food, just a waste of time.

If we're going back to the original topic though, perhaps you could answer my query about how pain isn't mediated by the central nervous system if that can emulate pain in bits that are no longer attached to its body?

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 1:03:51 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If you're putting it in your mouth as food, then you plan to digest it. The OED says so:
"any nutritious substance that people or animals eat or drink or that plants absorb in order to maintain life and growth"
So without the necessary plumbing south of your mouth, then whatever you put in your mouth isn't food, just a waste of time.
If we're going back to the original topic though, perhaps you could answer my query about how pain isn't mediated by the central nervous system if that can emulate pain in bits that are no longer attached to its body?


The CNS is more than just the cerebral cortex. Nervous tissues start to develop around the 3rd gestational week, IIRC.

The cerebral cortex is necessary to process the pain according to past experiences. Having lost a part, there will likely be "past experiences" of that "part." It is tough for something to be "no longer attached" without it having once been "attached."


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What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 1:08:49 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That's why I said CNS (central nervous system), rather than CC (cerebral cortex).

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 1:25:00 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		Re-read post#3 where kana quotes that it's the thalamus that is more pain receptive than the CC.

As for your post#57, what your intention of said food is irrelevant with regard to what "eating" actually entails.
If all the plumbing after the mouth is missing, it's still considered "eating" if you pass stuff through your mouth "as food".
Incidentally, absorbsion by plants isn't defined as "eating".

And as you answered yourself in your own post#55: "If it's "food" then you need to digest it after it's been eaten".
So the "eating" bit is just getting it through your mouth bits.
No more, no less.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 60
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