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19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?


He got what he deserved
  15% (14)
I would take him to Disneyland
  2% (2)
Cops are a cold hearted SOB
  20% (18)
I personally am sick of looking at grapiti
  12% (11)
Outlaw tazers
  13% (12)
More people ought to tag
  3% (3)
I want to live in a slum
  1% (1)
Kids will be kids
  11% (10)
Regulate sales of paint
  7% (7)
Buy that cop a beer!
  11% (10)


Total Votes : 88
(last vote on : 8/16/2013 2:00:10 PM)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 7:26:17 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		--FR--

Since he had apparently been warned by the police that if they caught him "again" they would beat the shit out of him, this was definitely not the tagger's first run-in with the police. Thus, when they caught him in the act they felt the jubilation and did all the high-five celebrating. Personally, when police celebrate after a collar I think it is unprofessional. But you also have to remember that many cops are not much more than kids themselves with many of them in their 20's.

As far as taggers and tagging, I'll be the first to admit that many of them do show a lot of talent. But as a homeowner who's garage was tagged and had to be repainted, more than once...at my expense...I think the fines and penalties need to be significantly increased for those that are caught. I think that once caught part of the penalty should be that they serve jail time by having to paint over not only their own graffiti, but any other graffiti in the neighborhood. And once released they should be held accountable for the cost of the paint. All of a sudden all of that tagging wouldn't be quite as much fun any more.

When the property owner has to put out the time, labor, and money to paint over graffiti, all it does is provide a new surface for the taggers to come back to...and then the property owner gets the time and expense to do it all over again. And again. And again.

But no one deserves to die over it. Cops are using their tazers too freely. It is a great tool when used properly, but you can go to YouTube and do a fairly simply search and come up with video after video, taken by bystanders, where the cops use their tazers unnecessarily on the elderly, the handicapped, and people already in handcuffs, as well as using their tazers multiple times on people already subdued. Of course the follow up investigations done by the police department almost always "show" that the officers involved acted "within departmental guidelines". Well, maybe those guidelines need to be changed.

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 7:43:17 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

Since he had apparently been warned by the police that if they caught him "again" they would beat the shit out of him, this was definitely not the tagger's first run-in with the police. Thus, when they caught him in the act they felt the jubilation and did all the high-five celebrating. Personally, when police celebrate after a collar I think it is unprofessional. But you also have to remember that many cops are not much more than kids themselves with many of them in their 20's.

As far as taggers and tagging, I'll be the first to admit that many of them do show a lot of talent. But as a homeowner who's garage was tagged and had to be repainted, more than once...at my expense...I think the fines and penalties need to be significantly increased for those that are caught. I think that once caught part of the penalty should be that they serve jail time by having to paint over not only their own graffiti, but any other graffiti in the neighborhood. And once released they should be held accountable for the cost of the paint. All of a sudden all of that tagging wouldn't be quite as much fun any more.

When the property owner has to put out the time, labor, and money to paint over graffiti, all it does is provide a new surface for the taggers to come back to...and then the property owner gets the time and expense to do it all over again. And again. And again.

But no one deserves to die over it. Cops are using their tazers too freely. It is a great tool when used properly, but you can go to YouTube and do a fairly simply search and come up with video after video, taken by bystanders, where the cops use their tazers unnecessarily on the elderly, the handicapped, and people already in handcuffs, as well as using their tazers multiple times on people already subdued. Of course the follow up investigations done by the police department almost always "show" that the officers involved acted "within departmental guidelines". Well, maybe those guidelines need to be changed.



Stunning reply.

When I lived in Chicago... I was tagged more then once. It was tedious to paint over it. The paint had to be specially blended because my house how the fake brick tar shingles. It was close to impossible to get the colors to match.

I do not consider this death on par with others- say the elderly or disabled who have died in a tazing. The 95 year old nursing home vet- (tho I think that was bean bad gun)

As you mentioned- you get to clean it up again and again.

Maybe this case will prompt a solution to these types of crimes- tho I wont hold my breath.


And the part of it being commercial or abandoned property- does not make it any better- as people in the community have to look at it.

Where are the mothers? The mother did a terrible job raising this kid!

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 7:59:52 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

Since he had apparently been warned by the police that if they caught him "again" they would beat the shit out of him



so the brutality was also premeditated... in italy if proved they "warned" he coudl have been beaten this would be negligent manslaughter.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:09:46 AM   
punisher440


Posts: 4122
Joined: 4/10/2011
Status: offline 		FR

Do I think the guy needed to die for painting on someone elses property? No. But the kid DID run when confronted while damaging other's property after being told to stop. I will reserve judgement on this case until they get the toxicological reports back to see if this guy was on something before passing judgement. Just remember if this guy had not broken the law and had not ran,he would not have been tazed in the first place.

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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:19:37 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The kid was committing a crime, and he ran when the cops saw him doing it.

After a foot chase, they cornered him, and told him to stop. Instead he rushed at police.

They tasered him and he died.

He:

Committed a crime.
Ran from the cops.
Ran toward them when ordered not to do so.

I'm sorry, but when the cops tell you to stop, you do so. If you rush them, they will assume you're attacking and will take you down.

The cops followed standard procedure.

Standard procedure then is the problem. There was a time in the US when we had a social contract with police and law enforcement in general. If no life or limb is in danger, then fatal or 'deadly' force is simply unnecessary.

A group of cops couldn't take down one teenager and a small one at that ? He was such a threat to society that he had to be tazed into submission ? Even if a single 'frail and smallish' 19 yr. old charges a group of policeman, just what danger does he present ?

Some say correctly that for society to fix many of its problem, a tremendous culture change is in order and one that...will never happen now. We are witness now to a culture change in US law enforcement, using force even killing and...asking questions later.


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:22:06 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Cops should learn hojojutsu.

The only problem with that is that the police academy is allready months long and they just get a tiny bit of hand to hand training which is just enough to get hurt really badly if they try to single handedly take down someone who knows what they're doing.
The learning of a martial art takes months and years of constant training and these guys get a coupla dozen hours or so.

I've inwardly cringed sometimes when 'self defense' classes are taught.
Self defense isn't something you can take a 16 hour class on and then you're free of threat for the rest of your life. You need to be on the mats every week developing reflex arcs and muscle memory.

On the other hand, hojo-jutsu may be a lot of fun for someone who wants to combine takedown play and shibari.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:26:03 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

A group of cops couldn't take down one teenager and a small one at that ? He was such a threat to society that he had to be tazed into submission ? Even if a single 'frail and smallish' 19 yr. old charges a group of policeman, just what danger does he present ?




One of the people I used in an advanced training class was 5'4 and about 135.
One of the 200+# officers lasted 8 seconds before he was immobilized the rest weren't nearly that good.

They have no idea about the skills, weapons and capabilities of a suspect before making contact.
Cautious cop = live cop = spouse who isn't a widow and children who have a parent

You do as they say and you don't get hurt.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/9/2013 8:34:13 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:28:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The kid was tased because he charged police and didn't stop when ordered.

charged... he was not a cuirassier with a sabre... he was a single unarmed person, he was giving the possibility to be tackled running through them.


Did he charge at the cops? Yes. Yes, he did.
Did he stop when ordered to? No. No, he didn't.
Were the cops authorized to taze the kid? It was probably an acceptable action according to police protocols, but that would have to be answered by someone in that PD.
Should the cops have tazed the kid? From my post#9:
    quote:

    There might be legitimacy in calls for police to be better at hand-to-hand takedown skills or in grappling. There is probably a "better" way to take down a kid when you have numbers advantage, too.
    Cops should learn hojojutsu.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:34:39 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Since he had apparently been warned by the police that if they caught him "again" they would beat the shit out of him

so the brutality was also premeditated... in italy if proved they "warned" he coudl have been beaten this would be negligent manslaughter.


First, I don't know that the cop that tased the kid was the same one that threatened to beat the shit out of him, so "premeditated" is a little far fetched, but it does show that he was known by the cops in the area and had had contact with them before.

Second,this didn't happen in Italy, or Spain, or England, or Brazil, so trying to make some kind of comparison is a moot point.



_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:37:23 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Cops should learn hojojutsu.

The only problem with that is that the police academy is allready months long and they just get a tiny bit of hand to hand training which is just enough to get hurt really badly if they try to single handedly take down someone who knows what they're doing.
The learning of a martial art takes months and years of constant training and these guys get a coupla dozen hours or so.
I've inwardly cringed sometimes when 'self defense' classes are taught.
Self defense isn't something you can take a 16 hour class on and then you're free of threat for the rest of your life. You need to be on the mats every week developing reflex arcs and muscle memory.
On the other hand, hojo-jutsu may be a lot of fun for someone who wants to combine takedown play and shibari.


I was not dismissing the truth that training is long term. As a rope guy, I have noticed that my typical lack of opportunity to tie women up has yet to result in an increase in my ability.

I stand by my statement that they should learn hojojutsu. Perhaps it should be something started in Academy and continued after. Regular grappling and hand-to-hand trainings/seminars could be offered and attendance required.

I don't know the answer to this, but is continued firearms training/practice required of police officers?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:45:58 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
And the part of it being commercial or abandoned property- does not make it any better- as people in the community have to look at it.


Someone earlier gave me the impression that they thought that since it was a building owned commercially that it was no big deal that they would have to clean up the mess. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a franchised building and that McDonald's didn't have to foot the bill anyway, leaving it up to the person that had owned the franchise, though to be honest I don't know for sure how that would work. What I do know is that if the building was privately owned, then that owner would have to pay the bill. But if it was owned by McDonald's, they aren't going to foot the bill...their customers are by having to pay higher prices in order to offset McDonald's cost of doing business.

And yes, regardless of who owns it, the public does have to put up with the eyesore.

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:46:28 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I don't know the answer to this, but is continued firearms training/practice required of police officers?


I think they basically have to qualify once/year around here and that's it. For some, that's the only time they fire a weapon.

Now, the SWAT guys do regular training and that's who I was working with.

Regular patrol officers around here qualify once a year and they don't have to go to the gym either (it shows) so their last formal hand to hand training might have been in the academy in some cases decades ago. The guys I worked with were doing it for fun. Lotsa bodies crashing into the mats and in some cases concrete walls, lotsa bruises during and beers afterwards. Good times.

As for requiring training during unpaid off duty hours, talk to the union about that. Ain't happening.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 8:53:09 AM   
SadisticDomCpl


Posts: 5
Joined: 11/27/2009
Status: offline 		This is a cop problem. If, as the article says, he had had previous run-ins with the cops, they already knew who he was and there was no reason why they had to pursue him and take him down on the spot. Once they saw him, all they had to do was go pick him up at home the next day. It's not as if he was committing an act of violence.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:06:08 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticDomCpl

This is a cop problem. If, as the article says, he had had previous run-ins with the cops, they already knew who he was and there was no reason why they had to pursue him and take him down on the spot. Once they saw him, all they had to do was go pick him up at home the next day. It's not as if he was committing an act of violence.

The young man was running at the officers.
Tasers are typically used at ranges well under 20'.
A running person can cover 20 feet in a bit over a half second.
You have a tazer.
You are under a half second from possibly getting a shank in your guts.


Oh, no problem, we know who he is. We'll just go arrest him at home tomorrow after he has had a chance to dispose of the evidence assuming I'm not on the ground coughing up blood first.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SadisticDomCpl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:12:47 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There might be legitimacy in calls for police to be better at hand-to-hand takedown skills or in grappling. There is probably a "better" way to take down a kid when you have numbers advantage, too.

There might be calls for some police training is what I'm thinking. We talk about things like tazers as if they were toys and they are not... as is clearly demonstrated here. Ditto with all the other "non-lethal" weaponry. This is jut another saga in the militarization of the US police force. It's the same thing as using a SWAT team to ask a few questions.

These cops fired a weapon at an unarmed civilian and killed him. I would treat about the same as if it was a gun they had fired.

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:16:08 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		FR

Miami will mercifully be able to sleep tonight now that this
dangerous, hardened, master criminal has been taken down.
High Five!

An unarmed, scrawny teenager whose only brush with the
law was a shoplifting offense. And they send 5 cops after
a kid committing a nonviolent, victimless crime? Crime rate
is that low in Miami these days? And in the end there
was a victim.

This boy wasn't a gang member or violent and the police knew
that. It's all the more sad that the young man was talented,
had goals and was trying to make something of his life.

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A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
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(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:16:11 AM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline 		Probably some of the people who said, "If Zimmerman had only listened to the Police........," that incident would not have happened.
Are the same people who are giving this kid a pass for NOT listening to the Police who ordered him to stop!

(in reply to SadisticDomCpl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:24:06 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

An unarmed, scrawny teenager whose only brush with the
law was a shoplifting offense. And they send 5 cops after
a kid committing a nonviolent, victimless crime?

A They don't know he is unarmed
B Graffiti is victimless? Lemme just come over to your house with a few buckets of paint this weekend. Do you like fuscia, lavender or chartreuse?

No criminal act = he is still alive.
He complies with the officers orders = he is still alive.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Winterapple)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:27:47 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
And the part of it being commercial or abandoned property- does not make it any better- as people in the community have to look at it.


Someone earlier gave me the impression that they thought that since it was a building owned commercially that it was no big deal that they would have to clean up the mess. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a franchised building and that McDonald's didn't have to foot the bill anyway, leaving it up to the person that had owned the franchise, though to be honest I don't know for sure how that would work. What I do know is that if the building was privately owned, then that owner would have to pay the bill. But if it was owned by McDonald's, they aren't going to foot the bill...their customers are by having to pay higher prices in order to offset McDonald's cost of doing business.

And yes, regardless of who owns it, the public does have to put up with the eyesore.

Franchised owners dont tend to shut down their business, especially one like McDs.. it is usually the company owned ones that gets moved to a better location or shut down..

Things like vandalism are part of doing business & tend to be calculated in already, just as the cost of insurance would be, just as the cost for any other maintenance would be, just as the cost of theft would be.. when was the last time McDs raised prices? its not usually cuz of a bit of graffiti, its usually cuz their costs for product and wages increase..

There are ways of reducing the opportunity for graffiti or any vandalism.. putting up a high fence.. planting prickly shrubs like barberry bushes against the building.. painting with anti-graffiti paint.. installing a $20 motion activated light.. signs that state the property is under video surveilance (even if thats not true), signs that say trespassers will be prosecuted (then actually doing that).. etc.. If you value your property you do these kinda things..

eta- re: the eyesore.. so you call up the city and they send a notice to the owner to clean it up or they will and send them the bill.. it no longer is an eyesore.. what i find as an eyesore are those homeowners, mechanics & business owners that dump drywall, reno garbage, old sofas, matresses, tires, etc along the road somewhere.. I see that quite frequently and much more than i see graffiti

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/9/2013 9:30:38 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/9/2013 9:29:14 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

Probably some of the people who said, "If Zimmerman had only listened to the Police........," that incident would not have happened.
Are the same people who are giving this kid a pass for NOT listening to the Police who ordered him to stop!

I'd bet that not one person blaming Zimmerman and the police instead of Martin and the kid has ever or will ever put themselves in Zimmerman's or the police's shoes.

(in reply to papassion)
Profile   Post #: 40
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