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19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?


He got what he deserved
  15% (14)
I would take him to Disneyland
  2% (2)
Cops are a cold hearted SOB
  20% (18)
I personally am sick of looking at grapiti
  12% (11)
Outlaw tazers
  13% (12)
More people ought to tag
  3% (3)
I want to live in a slum
  1% (1)
Kids will be kids
  11% (10)
Regulate sales of paint
  7% (7)
Buy that cop a beer!
  11% (10)


Total Votes : 88
(last vote on : 8/16/2013 2:00:10 PM)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:54:39 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

A If it happened, exactly the way the other tagger said it did with no other contributing factors, no.
B The phrase "when did it become
implies strongly, whether you realize it or not, that it wasn't and now
it is. It also implies that this is an escalation on the part of the police.
C The taser was used for the tagger's protection, to fall back to something less dangerous to him would
require that the police stay in the station and hope he turns himself in. I suspect congenital heart
problems, for all we know the strain of running from the cops may be what killed him.
D Lets face it even minor criminals lie about the police all the time.


Graffiti. Not violent crime. Graffiti. The police response was not proportionate to the crime committed. You do not hunt down a vandal with 5 officers. You hunt a violent offender with 5 cops, not a kid with a spray can of paint. The only response that was ultimately correct by the police was when the suspect charged the cops and they fired the tazer. The kid died... over graffiti. I cannot make that equation work in my head. I am not disputing that the kid was stupid for what he did, but the response by the police is equally questionable except for the firing of the tazer.

Whether you want to admit it or not the police did escalate the situation when they called additional units to find and subdue a graffiti suspect. The kid ran, sure, I get that... but the cops knew who he was, and the police never said he had a weapon of any kind making the situation turn from errant stupid kid with a spray can into potentially violent suspect. It would be like calling a nation wide manhunt for a shoplifter.

Kid is less likely to do something stupid with 5 cops than with one.
Would you feel better if one cop had tried to chase him down and had a heart attack?
The taser was less likely by far to cause serious harm than any other tool they had available.
What is it about the cops could have been right that you have a problem with.
If the 5 had jumped him you would call that excessive.
If just one had been there he would have had to use the taser, same outcome.
If he didn't use the taser he would have had to hurt the kid and you would be mad about that.
So we are back to waiting at the station in case he choose to turn himself in.
The fact that they knew who he was would not have stood up in court they had to apprehend him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 2:00:30 PM   
maletoytx


Posts: 9
Joined: 5/16/2009
Status: offline 		Not really..

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 2:02:54 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		If you had bothered to read the article you would know
that the boy was a sculptor, painter, writer and photographer.
Graffiti wasn't his only means of expression. His teacher a
man educated in art saw his talent as did others.

Are shoplifting and armed robbery equivalent crimes?
Shoplifting is very costly to business owners, armed
robbery often causes death or the very least injury
and trauma. What has the greater value money in the
pocket or a human life?

And don't even attempt to pull that I don't respect men
and women in the police crap on me. My brother in law
is in law enforcement. I don't know a braver or more
honorable man. I am fully aware that every time he goes
to work he might not return home to my sister and their
children. Let me tell you something that those of us who
have loved ones in law enforcement and the armed forces
who are honorable and competent know. They hold
themselves and their colleagues to a much higher standard
of conduct than their groupies hold them.

And if you think poor neighborhoods aren't neglected and
sometimes virtually abandoned by the police you are
at best naive. I remember a man who was a reporter for
a city newspaper who investigated a series of rapes that
were occurring in a poor neighborhood. Rapes that had
been going on for almost three years with the police
doing little or nothing about. The victims were working
poor women who were often targeted at night when they
were coming home from their shit jobs. The police weren't
sending two police officers much less five to patrol their
neighborhood.

And as far as guarding my personal property that's pretty
much up to me. We have a town constable but I'd hate to
wake him up.

_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 2:16:19 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: maletoytx

Not really..

oh they most definately know.. which is why they attempt to cover their legal arse by not recommending that cops aim at a persons chest.. they want to produce and profit from these weapons but not be involved in any messy wrongful death lawsuits...

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(in reply to maletoytx)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 2:23:01 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Kid is less likely to do something stupid with 5 cops than with one.


That worked well, didn't it?

quote:

Would you feel better if one cop had tried to chase him down and had a heart attack?


What? You seem to think I am against the cops. I am not.

quote:

The taser was less likely by far to cause serious harm than any other tool they had available.


Did you miss the part where I said the cops were justified using the tazer because he charged them?

quote:

What is it about the cops could have been right that you have a problem with.


I have been very clear. No more need to explain that to you if you haven't gotten it by now.

quote:

If the 5 had jumped him you would call that excessive.


Don't put words into my mouth. The kid charged toward the cops. Their response was justified. The kid died and that is unfortunate.

quote:

If just one had been there he would have had to use the taser, same outcome.


Or the kid would have gotten away. We can play the "What if" game all day but that is pointless.

quote:

If he didn't use the taser he would have had to hurt the kid and you would be mad about that.


You must be psychic or at least think you know what my thoughts are. Also, I am not mad, angry, mildly distressed or irritated. In fact, I am obnoxiously neutral.


quote:

So we are back to waiting at the station in case he choose to turn himself in.


Bah, another "what if" scenario... that game won't work. Where did I say the cops should wait at the station? One cop chasing the kid, maybe two. What part of my statement about a proportionate response was unclear to you?

quote:

The fact that they knew who he was would not have stood up in court they had to apprehend him.


If the cops knew who he was then he had either been caught before or there was word around the streets as to the kids identity. We don't know. And you are correct about it not holding up in court that he would have had to be caught in the act. So, if they truly knew who he was, one cop chases him and another is dispatched to the suspects home to pick him up. A cops word against a known vandal in a Magisterial Court? The kid would have been fined or maybe sentenced to community service cleaning graffiti and then let go. I know the court system all too well and I know what Magistrates can do even if the cop really cannot totally prove his case. Weak case, kid gets off with community service. Strong case, kid gets fined and community service.

I am obviously not going to change your mind and I certainly am not going to change mine. I've made my points and there is no need for me to rehash them 30 times because they won't be any different than they are now. So unless you agree to meet me half-way or offer something new to discuss there is no more need for this to go on.





_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 3:33:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Did you miss the part where I said the cops were justified using the tazer because he charged them?


Once you admit this the rest is just nitpicking.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 3:56:09 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

If you had bothered to read the article you would know
that the boy was a sculptor, painter, writer and photographer.
Graffiti wasn't his only means of expression. His teacher a
man educated in art saw his talent as did others.


The teacher also failed him. Of she advised him to tag the city she goofed, she did not guide him properly.



(in reply to Winterapple)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 4:22:55 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		The teacher was male.

_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 4:30:06 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Graffiti. Not violent crime. Graffiti. The police response was not proportionate to the crime committed. You do not hunt down a vandal with 5 officers. You hunt a violent offender with 5 cops, not a kid with a spray can of paint.

Sorry, the kid was known to the police (as you rightly acknowledge).
He is a known runner and a multiple previous tagger.
They wanted him caught - so you would need more than just the odd one or two cops once they knew where he was operating and could possibly catch the little fucker in the act doing his damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
The only response that was ultimately correct by the police was when the suspect charged the cops and they fired the tazer. The kid died... over graffiti. I cannot make that equation work in my head.

Yes, the kid (unfortunately) died.
Killing him was not the objective otherwise they would have used proper guns.
How or why, what appears to be a healthy young juvenile managed to die from a tazer is under investigation.
The fact that it was graphitti is a red herring - he was breaking the law and causing criminal damage to someone else's property; whether that was with a spray can or a pick axe is irrelevant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
I am not disputing that the kid was stupid for what he did, but the response by the police is equally questionable except for the firing of the tazer.

I don't think so.
I think they acted quite appropriately.
Unfortunately, there was a tragic accident that couldn't be easily anticipated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Whether you want to admit it or not the police did escalate the situation when they called additional units to find and subdue a graffiti suspect. The kid ran, sure, I get that... but the cops knew who he was, and the police never said he had a weapon of any kind making the situation turn from errant stupid kid with a spray can into potentially violent suspect. It would be like calling a nation wide manhunt for a shoplifter.

They didn't know whether he was armed or otherwise carrying any weapon until after the fact.
And just because they knew who he was didn't give them enough evidence to prove it was him to make a successful case.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 4:45:50 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

The teacher was male.


It takes a whole village- which in this case- did not pan out.

(in reply to Winterapple)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 6:19:20 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Do I care? Well, I'm sorry he died of course.

But on the other hand, he's better off than he would have been if I'd caught him spray-painting my car.


How much worse off could he be?

As an aside and more of an FR it is interesting to me that so many on this board who are civil libertarians when it comes to the perceived big brother conspiracies of the government will when given the opportunity become stern law n order types and applaud agents of that government killing a kid who was committing a misdemeanor crime and posed danger to no one. Fucking baffling.




what is fucking baffling to me is that you seem to have found so many posts applauding the cop and I can't find one. Are you sure you aren't just talking out of your ass again? Now I have found several that suggest the kid brought this on himself by running and others that say the cop didn't mean to kill the kid, but that's about it.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 6:32:35 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

500 people in the United States have died since 2001

Amnesty International says 17 people have died in Canada since 2001 after stun-guns were used by police.

So if Canada had the same population as the US does, that would equate to about 170 deaths compared to 500 in the US.. hmmmm... it would be interesting to find out the actual reasons for that difference..



Maybe they just like using guns more than stun guns. Maybe if they had tried the stun gun in this case the kid would still be alive..

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sammy-yatim-teen-killed-on-toronto-streetcar-honoured-during-funeral-1.1393221

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 6:49:18 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing,
.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

I'm going to type this slowly so you can understand it.

He was running toward the cop (otherwise, he would have taken the shot in the ass not the chest)
It was dark.
Does that put you in danger? Damn right it does because it's DARK and you don't know what is in his hands.
Ever been cut with a knife? I have. Being cut superficially isn't that bad, the healing is a bitch. Taking one in the guts I have heard is anywhere from excruciating to fatal.
With the effective range of a tazer (under 20 feet) you have a half second to act.

The decedent was committing a crime (stupid decision #1)
The decedent led the cops on a long foot chase (stupid decision #2)
He then ran AT the officers instead of giving up (stupid decision #3)

Strike 1
Strike 2
Strike 3 He's out and chalk another one up for Darwin.

Never give the other guy an even chance if you want to go home to your family.


I understood what your point is, it's just I don't agree with that.
I told you what I would have done in that situation, do you think I'm stupid for that? fine, maybe I am.
Is it what I told the behaviour my culture and the law I live under require in this situation? yes, so for me it's natural to see it this way.




You did tell us what you would do. You said you would step back and let your colleague take care of it. And then you go on to tell us that you would do that because that is what your culture and law require. So if everyone in your group is following that same thought and you all step back and let someone else handle it, who is actually going to stand up and deal with the situation?

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 6:56:57 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		It is a shame he died, but his own actions set the course of events that caused it.

Vandalism, not wise. Running from cops, definitely not wise.

It is a tragedy though, and I feel for his family.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:03:07 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Maybe they just like using guns more than stun guns. Maybe if they had tried the stun gun in this case the kid would still be alive..

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sammy-yatim-teen-killed-on-toronto-streetcar-honoured-during-funeral-1.1393221

there will always be unfortunate deaths when cops are trying to do their job.. digging up one of those stories still does not give an answer to the question.. I am not going to look up the stats on gun shot deaths by cop but I expect those are also considerably lower than in the US..

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:07:34 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Maybe they just like using guns more than stun guns. Maybe if they had tried the stun gun in this case the kid would still be alive..

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sammy-yatim-teen-killed-on-toronto-streetcar-honoured-during-funeral-1.1393221

there will always be unfortunate deaths when cops are trying to do their job.. digging up one of those stories still does not give an answer to the question.. I am not going to look up the stats on gun shot deaths by cop but I expect those are also considerably lower than in the US..



I looked it up because my uncle mentioned it to me yesterday and Lucy mentioned it today. Didn't take a lot of digging. I wonder if your reaction would have been the same if the story had been about US cops? Somehow I get the feeling it wouldn't have been.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:09:34 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

500 people in the United States have died since 2001

Amnesty International says 17 people have died in Canada since 2001 after stun-guns were used by police.

So if Canada had the same population as the US does, that would equate to about 170 deaths compared to 500 in the US.. hmmmm... it would be interesting to find out the actual reasons for that difference..



Maybe they just like using guns more than stun guns. Maybe if they had tried the stun gun in this case the kid would still be alive..

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/sammy-yatim-teen-killed-on-toronto-streetcar-honoured-during-funeral-1.1393221


Currently, the weapon(tazers) can be used only by tactical officers and by front-line supervisors.
There is also a call to have regular officers to use tazers, in conjunction with tighter restrictions and guidelines for said tazer use.



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(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:14:49 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		--FR--

I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened, but "the kid charged and so he was tased" story is only one version of what happened that night. A version given by a group of cops that had just killed someone (rightly or wrongly).

There is a second version, given by the kid that was supposed to be the lookout. He said the cops had caught the tagger and had "thrown him up against the wall" shortly before the tagger fell to the ground. If that is the case, then the cops had already initiated physical contact with the suspect, and if he was tased after being thrown against the wall it was most likely unnecessary.

Now, who is most likely to have a need to embellish their story; cops that may have just used a taser unnecessarily on someone resulting in that someone's death, or some kid having just witnessed the event?

I'm not saying it happened in this case, but cops can and often do lie to cover their ass, so I'm unwilling to simply automatically assume that their version is the true version.

I have zero love for taggrs, but I also have zero love for dishonest cops.



_____________________________

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(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:18:14 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened, but "the kid charged and so he was tased" story is only one version of what happened that night. A version given by a group of cops that had just killed someone (rightly or wrongly).

There is a second version, given by the kid that was supposed to be the lookout. He said the cops had caught the tagger and had "thrown him up against the wall" shortly before the tagger fell to the ground. If that is the case, then the cops had already initiated physical contact with the suspect, and if he was tased after being thrown against the wall it was most likely unnecessary.

Now, who is most likely to have a need to embellish their story; cops that may have just used a taser unnecessarily on someone resulting in that someone's death, or some kid having just witnessed the event?

I'm not saying it happened in this case, but cops can and often do lie to cover their ass, so I'm unwilling to simply automatically assume that their version is the true version.

I have zero love for taggrs, but I also have zero love for dishonest cops.





yes cops can and have lied, but so have kids. Are you suggesting you can't think of any reasons why that boy might have made up shit?

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/11/2013 7:29:33 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I looked it up because my uncle mentioned it to me yesterday and Lucy mentioned it today. Didn't take a lot of digging. I wonder if your reaction would have been the same if the story had been about US cops? Somehow I get the feeling it wouldn't have been.

Lucy seems to have answered why the cop used a gun, sounds like he didnt have a taser so it wasnt a choice of one or the other.. I also dont know how Toronto cops operate (as I said previously, I have never been east of Alberta).. There are a lot of articles on US cops gone bad, abusing there position in various ways, some of them end up in jail eventually themselves, some get away with criminal offences that would land you or I in jail.. that doesnt mean all cops are like that but it does create a distrust in me about them.. I would never date a cop (no matter if he was a US cop or a Canadian one)! lol

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(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 180
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