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19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?


He got what he deserved
  15% (14)
I would take him to Disneyland
  2% (2)
Cops are a cold hearted SOB
  20% (18)
I personally am sick of looking at grapiti
  12% (11)
Outlaw tazers
  13% (12)
More people ought to tag
  3% (3)
I want to live in a slum
  1% (1)
Kids will be kids
  11% (10)
Regulate sales of paint
  7% (7)
Buy that cop a beer!
  11% (10)


Total Votes : 88
(last vote on : 8/16/2013 2:00:10 PM)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:03:31 AM   
Wendel27


Posts: 162
Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		''Ive seen three cops take down a drugged up ass hole weilding a pickaxe, he was bruised and had broken ribs at the end of it, he went away for five years.that was in the UK, they didnt have stun guns, they didnt have guns, they had training. ''

And that's a vindication of that training but being able to do that and being forced to is very different. Just because something can turn out fine is no indication that it always will nor that it is the best way to deal with a situation. Having been the role of one of the three officers in your scenario Lucy I can say there are many times that the result is far less agreeable. Taser is a decent supplement to unarmed tactics. It doesn't come without risks but no solution to such problems does. Certainly simply fighting with someone has just as many drawbacks...often for both parties.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:04:11 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

I really don't understand how the 95yo situation is different from this one, and just to say if I could choose between being tckled or tazed I'll go for the first one even for some of you is so much insensitive and dangerouse

my

A 95 year old standing (or sitting as one account says) in a well lit room is a lot less likely to stick something lethal into your guts than an 18 year old who is running at you at night and will arrive in under a half second if you don't do something.

As for being tackled, are you going to tackle someone who might be armed if you have a tazer?

Remember the old adage about never giving the other guy an equal shot. People die that way.

He made stupid decisions.
He died because of them.
It's called evolution in action.


bullshit the 95yo guy was having such an aggressive behaviour that nursing staff could not handle and had to call the cops, the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing, the elder man was using for sure a cane to keep people at a distance the teen never draw any kind of weapon.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:10:08 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Some numbers.
http://www.graffiti911.com/costs.php

As of 2008, annual removal costs were 25 BILLION/year. This does not count more billions in loss of value to properties seen as 'blighted'.
That money comes out of the pockets of people. Most of those people are homeowners and small businessmen who don't have money to spare in the first place.
Others are lucky. They have enough money to remove it but they now must forgo hiring a new employee or 2 so we have more unemployment.

Bernie Madoff cost investors about 2/3 this amount and deservedly is going to rot in jail but some of you folks see these little fucks who steal more from the American public every year than Madoff did in a lifetime as harmless.

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:16:14 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

''Ive seen three cops take down a drugged up ass hole weilding a pickaxe, he was bruised and had broken ribs at the end of it, he went away for five years.that was in the UK, they didnt have stun guns, they didnt have guns, they had training. ''

And that's a vindication of that training but being able to do that and being forced to is very different. Just because something can turn out fine is no indication that it always will nor that it is the best way to deal with a situation. Having been the role of one of the three officers in your scenario Lucy I can say there are many times that the result is far less agreeable. Taser is a decent supplement to unarmed tactics. It doesn't come without risks but no solution to such problems does. Certainly simply fighting with someone has just as many drawbacks...often for both parties.


From http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jul/14/taser-use-police-forces-uk-data
Newly released figures reveal the frequency of British police officers firing Tasers at suspects' chests, despite explicit warnings from the weapon's manufacturer over the dangers of causing cardiac arrest. Which forces are included and what did we find?

906 times is the total number of times the taser have been used ..518 times they have been shot in the chest.
Contrary to medical advice and manufacturer's warnings, UK police are firing Taser stun guns at the chests of suspects in the majority of cases, according to newly released data.

There is evidence to suggest that shots to the chest are more dangerous because they can result in cardiac arrest. The manufacturer's own training guidance states: "When possible, avoid targeting the frontal chest area near the heart to reduce the risk of potential serious injury or death."

57% of shots to the chest

Of the 45 UK police forces that were asked about taser gun use, 18 replied with statistics. The original freedom of information request included questions about the total number of uses and the number of times that an individual had been hit in the chest area by a Taser weapon between 2009 and 2012.

On average, 57% of all Taser discharges resulted in an individual being hit in the chest. There were however large differences between police forces - from 100% of three Taser uses by City of London police, to 17% of the 24 occasions that Suffolk police used the weapon.

theres more info and graphs....

If everyone is missing what IM advocating, is better training and guidelines... and less deaths for BOTH parties


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(in reply to Wendel27)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:18:13 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		The PPLs in this country are attempting to disarm us with cries of: "The police will protect you" and then, they bitch when the police do their job.

There really is no irony like reality.

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Profile   Post #: 125
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:20:42 AM   
Wendel27


Posts: 162
Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		 I'm not Taser trained but i'd imagine the reason that a large percentage of hits are to the chest is because it represents the easiest target to hit in fluid situations...no matter the training involved.

''If everyone is missing what IM advocating, is better training and guidelines... and less deaths for BOTH parties
 ''

Fair enough but I commented on your post  which said about the Metpol officers disarming a pickaxe armed suspect with combatives and a succesful outcome. I just put forward he view that this is not alwasy the case and their is a gul of difference between choosing such a tactic and having to use it due to lack of tactical options.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:21:07 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing,
.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

I'm going to type this slowly so you can understand it.

He was running toward the cop (otherwise, he would have taken the shot in the ass not the chest)
It was dark.
Does that put you in danger? Damn right it does because it's DARK and you don't know what is in his hands.
Ever been cut with a knife? I have. Being cut superficially isn't that bad, the healing is a bitch. Taking one in the guts I have heard is anywhere from excruciating to fatal.
With the effective range of a tazer (under 20 feet) you have a half second to act.

The decedent was committing a crime (stupid decision #1)
The decedent led the cops on a long foot chase (stupid decision #2)
He then ran AT the officers instead of giving up (stupid decision #3)

Strike 1
Strike 2
Strike 3 He's out and chalk another one up for Darwin.

Never give the other guy an even chance if you want to go home to your family.

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:32:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		...if he has lived- he would be tagging the next day. Doing what he does best... he and his skate board friends....

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:34:17 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		No, I haven't seen his work but that really isn't relevant.
Firstly, art is more than something pretty to hang over
the sofa. It can be ugly, it can be angry. But the article
offers some testimony that people other than his mother
thought he was talented and took art seriously. His high
school art teacher said he it was an honor to work with
him. The article states he had won awards and that his
work had been shown at local galleries and museums.

But even if none of that was true and he was a anti social
misfit who was destined to be nothing put a pimple on the
ass of humanity the events that led to his death should be
looked at and examined. Anytime a person is killed by the
police or dies in police custody it needs to be investigated.
Certainly, internally by the police and probably by an outside
investigation. Procedures need to be examined and sometimes
need to be changed. Some may see this as an open and shut
case. But for others there are questions. And the police are not
above being questioned or asked to explain their actions.

A crime that is nonviolent is no less of crime than a violent
one? So jaywalking is the same as stabbing someone?
Shoplifting is the same as armed robbery?

I don't think the intent of the officers was to kill the boy.
But you can't say it wasn't their intent to hurt him because
when you make the decision to use a taser on someone it
is going to hurt them. Whether the perceived benefits of using
a taser outweigh the risks of using it is one of the questions
a case like this raises.

Nothing turns a neighborhood into a slum quicker than graffiti?
I tend to think economic woes and the near abandonment
of some neighborhoods to violent crime by the police push
things in that direction quicker than spray paint.

I wonder if they send five policeman out to a poor neighborhood
when a resident is mugged, raped or their house is broken into?
I wonder if five policemen would have pursued someone who
vandalized a mom and pop store in a poor neighborhood?







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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:36:46 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I still say that in this case, a tazer was the best option given the circumstances.

A tackle could easily have resulted in serious injury (and maybe death through injuries) just as a by-product of a tackle.
A normal hand gun would probably have been just as lethal, if not more so.

The fact that this youngster died as a (relative) fluke of a tazer deployment doesn't sit well with me for people to make tazers out as a WMD or dangerous and purposefully blown out of all proportion for the sake of discussion.

People die falling off a horse.
Do we ban the riding of horses because of it? No, we don't.
People die in car accidents.
Do we ban the use of cars? No, we don't.
People get electrocuted and die in their homes.
Do we ban electricity and go back to gas lights? No, we don't.
People have been known to die from over-eating.
Do we now ban all food on the planet? No, we don't.

Everything in proportion.
I think the overtly and deliberate use of provocative words and statements about the deadliness of tazers is just completely out of proportion.
Sure, accidents happen. They happen all the time.
But to make a song-and-dance about it doesn't make the point any better or clearer or more justified.

The death, however tragic, was an accident. Pure and simple.


ETA: to answer some of apple's comments above...
It matters not a jot whether his art was good or bad or if he was famous or not.
The point is, he was vandalising someone else's property.
That is a criminal offence, it's as simple as that.
When confronted by police, he didn't give up peacefully either.
He made them chase him.
And it wouldn't matter how many police surrounded him, he can only charge in one direction.
That means that a very limited number of police would have been able to tackle him with any sensibility - probably only one or two at best.
They didn't know if he had any other weapon with him when he charged them.
The officer at most risk of being injured, or possibly killed, had at best, maybe half a second to evaluate the situation and make a decision as to how to deal with a charging and determined criminal trying to escape.

I don't know if it is also true of the US, but most taggers caught here have been known to use their spray paint like CS gas and many are also caught with knives as well. I would surmise that with guns being fairly common in the US, that would also have to be taken into consideration by the officer having to make that determination.

As it happens, the tagger didn't appear to have a gun or other weapons.
But the officer didn't know that at the time.
It's a calculated risk at any time.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 8/10/2013 11:54:07 AM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:40:00 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Part of officer training of using a tazer means they are tazered themself. At least in the US this is the protocal.


We could examine the use of tazers for someone who may have heart problems.


And dont presume that there isnt or wont be an investigation into the death-

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:51:26 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Regarding chest shots with tazers and their 'inadvisability'.

Tazers aren't particularly accurate. The relevant part starts on page 89 http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

They don't even shoot straight. The barbs shoot out at an angle to each other and hit a foot to 3 feet apart at normal operating ranges. Aiming anywhere but center mass is just about a guaranteed miss.

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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 11:54:50 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with Tasers either during their arrest or while in jail


I think it has been proven that tasers will not injury reasonable healthy adults... And that the deaths are generally the result of not obvious health conditions. For instance a suspect resisting arrest full of PCP's or crack and there goes the heart. What you and others are not considering are the deaths and injuries SAVED by not having to use brute force as in the past. Otherwise a shock from a taser would be less lethal than a nightstick up along side the head or a load of buckshot. So in affect deaths and injuries among police and those resisting could be less than before the tasers use. Otherwise even with the deaths from tasers fewer people die or are injured because of their use.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/10/2013 12:19:33 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:01:32 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing,
.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

I'm going to type this slowly so you can understand it.

He was running toward the cop (otherwise, he would have taken the shot in the ass not the chest)
It was dark.
Does that put you in danger? Damn right it does because it's DARK and you don't know what is in his hands.
Ever been cut with a knife? I have. Being cut superficially isn't that bad, the healing is a bitch. Taking one in the guts I have heard is anywhere from excruciating to fatal.
With the effective range of a tazer (under 20 feet) you have a half second to act.

The decedent was committing a crime (stupid decision #1)
The decedent led the cops on a long foot chase (stupid decision #2)
He then ran AT the officers instead of giving up (stupid decision #3)

Strike 1
Strike 2
Strike 3 He's out and chalk another one up for Darwin.

Never give the other guy an even chance if you want to go home to your family.


I understood what your point is, it's just I don't agree with that.
I told you what I would have done in that situation, do you think I'm stupid for that? fine, maybe I am.
Is it what I told the behaviour my culture and the law I live under require in this situation? yes, so for me it's natural to see it this way.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:04:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

No, I haven't seen his work but that really isn't relevant.
Firstly, art is more than something pretty to hang over
the sofa. It can be ugly, it can be angry. But the article
offers some testimony that people other than his mother
thought he was talented and took art seriously. His high
school art teacher said he it was an honor to work with
him. The article states he had won awards and that his
work had been shown at local galleries and museums.


Will the CNN story showed the so called art he did on the McDonalds... I could do better. 99.99 percent of tagging is no more art then yellow piss in the snow.

quote:

A crime that is nonviolent is no less of crime than a violent
one? So jaywalking is the same as stabbing someone?
Shoplifting is the same as armed robbery


Destroying someone's property...costing them perhaps hundreds or thousands of dollars is a more serious crime then jaywalking ...no comparison at all.

quote:

I don't think the intent of the officers was to kill the boy.
But you can't say it wasn't their intent to hurt him because
when you make the decision to use a taser on someone it
is going to hurt them. Whether the perceived benefits of using
a taser outweigh the risks of using it is one of the questions
a case like this raises.



No the intent is to stop the suspect's violent actions without injuring him. As I said if the taser killed him, which we do not know for sure yet, what would be the result of a bunch of policemen with night sticks subduing him?

quote:

violent crime by the police


Tell this to the dedicated men and women of the police forces in America that risk their life every day to protect you and your property... just so you can defame them...what crap.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/10/2013 12:33:38 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:04:25 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing,
.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

I'm going to type this slowly so you can understand it.

He was running toward the cop (otherwise, he would have taken the shot in the ass not the chest)
It was dark.
Does that put you in danger? Damn right it does because it's DARK and you don't know what is in his hands.
Ever been cut with a knife? I have. Being cut superficially isn't that bad, the healing is a bitch. Taking one in the guts I have heard is anywhere from excruciating to fatal.
With the effective range of a tazer (under 20 feet) you have a half second to act.

The decedent was committing a crime (stupid decision #1)
The decedent led the cops on a long foot chase (stupid decision #2)
He then ran AT the officers instead of giving up (stupid decision #3)

Strike 1
Strike 2
Strike 3 He's out and chalk another one up for Darwin.

Never give the other guy an even chance if you want to go home to your family.


I understood what your point is, it's just I don't agree with that.
I told you what I would have done in that situation, do you think I'm stupid for that? fine, maybe I am.
Is it what I told the behaviour my culture and the law I live under require in this situation? yes, so for me it's natural to see it this way.


I'm not saying you were stupid. I'm just saying that around criminals, that behavior you described would have probably led to you becoming "The decedent" sooner rather than later and another one would be chalked up to Darwin.
Cops have this weird desire.
They don't want their spouse to be widowed or their kids to lose a parent.

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(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:17:30 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I dont think it has Butch...I think you have nothing to back up your assumptions such as hard figures, as usual. I most certainly have considered it.
I still believe the subject of tasers needs looking at.
Ive given facts and figures, not just my personal opinion that the subject of tazers needs to be addressed.

and ive mentioned i give a shit about BOTH parties...... that is people tazed and the cops who taze them and why.



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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:23:31 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		You are right I don't have hard statistics and not sure they could be easily figured... But I do think common sense says that they would be safer on the whole than previous methods to subdue uncooperative suspects. But I do agree that we should be looking for better or even safer ways than tasers if possible.

Ps... I said "could"...because I had no statistics. I never make claims of something being true without proof... but like you I am entitled to a reasonable thoughtout opinion.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/10/2013 12:37:22 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:27:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oneechan

A tazer should only ever be used in the exact same situation a handgun would be used, if the target is at a close enough range

five officers versus one suspect means a tazer is unreasonable to use. it is an unacceptably high level of force, unless that suspect is some kind of elite special forces guy and is armed.

The point your clearly missed is that the suspect is far more likely to sustain injury when subdues by the 5 guys jumping on him than by a taser.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:33:50 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		When did it become OK for the police to threaten to beat the shit out of someone if they caught them doing something again? Their job is to protect and serve, not threaten and intimidate and beat if caught again.

I spent most of my youth around the police because both my parents were in the legal profession. I understand that the kid ran. I understand that he committed a crime. I understand that he ran toward police. I understand that the cops may have felt threatened at that point and used what is supposed to be non-lethal force. I get that. What I don't get is how it escalated into a chase in the first place and why someone died over graffiti.

Let's get this into perspective. This kid was not a known felon. It hasn't come out yet but I am sure it will if the kid had a history of violence. He did not display any weapon of any kind. The police knew who he was. Graffiti is a misdemeanor crime. If a cop saw him tagging and chased him I get that. How it became a 5 cop manhunt is way beyond me over a misdemeanor especially if the cops knew who he was. The kid wasn't suspected of armed robbery, murder, assault or any violent crime. That he ran does not make the kid violent, it makes him stupid. That the cops threatened him at an earlier date is fairly damning as far as their perspective on crime goes. You can kill someone with a tissue and a tissue is non-lethal, a tazer is supposed to be non-lethal but has proven to be fatal in some cases, the cops cannot do a medical exam before using a tazer, it is a judgment call.

This is a tragic result of what I would say was bad judgement by the police and the kid. Who is at fault? The cop has to live with the kid dying and the family has to live with the stupid things the kid did that resulted in his death. Who wins? The lawyer that will sue the police department for wrongful death.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 140
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