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[Poll]

19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care?


He got what he deserved
  15% (14)
I would take him to Disneyland
  2% (2)
Cops are a cold hearted SOB
  20% (18)
I personally am sick of looking at grapiti
  12% (11)
Outlaw tazers
  13% (12)
More people ought to tag
  3% (3)
I want to live in a slum
  1% (1)
Kids will be kids
  11% (10)
Regulate sales of paint
  7% (7)
Buy that cop a beer!
  11% (10)


Total Votes : 88
(last vote on : 8/16/2013 2:00:10 PM)
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RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:35:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Part of officer training of using a tazer means they are tazered themself. At least in the US this is the protocal.


We could examine the use of tazers for someone who may have heart problems.


And dont presume that there isnt or wont be an investigation into the death-

Do the cops then have to ask for medical history before using a taser?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:39:55 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		How about 60 minutes Lucy...HERE

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:40:24 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

When did it become OK for the police to threaten to beat the shit out of someone if they caught them doing something again? Their job is to protect and serve, not threaten and intimidate and beat if caught again.

I spent most of my youth around the police because both my parents were in the legal profession. I understand that the kid ran. I understand that he committed a crime. I understand that he ran toward police. I understand that the cops may have felt threatened at that point and used what is supposed to be non-lethal force. I get that. What I don't get is how it escalated into a chase in the first place and why someone died over graffiti.

Let's get this into perspective. This kid was not a known felon. It hasn't come out yet but I am sure it will if the kid had a history of violence. He did not display any weapon of any kind. The police knew who he was. Graffiti is a misdemeanor crime. If a cop saw him tagging and chased him I get that. How it became a 5 cop manhunt is way beyond me over a misdemeanor especially if the cops knew who he was. The kid wasn't suspected of armed robbery, murder, assault or any violent crime. That he ran does not make the kid violent, it makes him stupid. That the cops threatened him at an earlier date is fairly damning as far as their perspective on crime goes. You can kill someone with a tissue and a tissue is non-lethal, a tazer is supposed to be non-lethal but has proven to be fatal in some cases, the cops cannot do a medical exam before using a tazer, it is a judgment call.

This is a tragic result of what I would say was bad judgement by the police and the kid. Who is at fault? The cop has to live with the kid dying and the family has to live with the stupid things the kid did that resulted in his death. Who wins? The lawyer that will sue the police department for wrongful death.

When I was his age the cops would never have threatened to beat me up, they would have just done it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:40:27 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		^ we could insist the skate boarders are licensed, and insured.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:43:11 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
When I was his age the cops would never have threatened to beat me up, they would have just done it.


And that makes it right?


_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 12:54:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Lucy here is another... I've found it is easy to find supporting evidence and proof that tasers have reduced injuries to both officers and suspects. I could post the usual twenty or thirty links but they are there if you want to look.

But again I agree maybe the police are trigger happy with this device that at least CAN still kill or injure...but in the end it has saved many more lives and injuries than it has taken... So it is better to use then not even with some abuse.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/10/2013 1:07:29 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:01:27 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I'm not saying you were stupid. I'm just saying that around criminals, that behavior you described would have probably led to you becoming "The decedent" sooner rather than later and another one would be chalked up to Darwin.
Cops have this weird desire.
They don't want their spouse to be widowed or their kids to lose a parent.


probably stupid was not the right word, let say naive. I don't say the cop acted out of the law, I don't know what says the law in the state of florida about it (I asked in another post but had no response), what I'm doing is giving a moral critic as for my cultural background an uniform brings power but also responsibilities that are not required to a civilian, being that way of dealing the problem cleary outlaw in the country I live, like many criticized the russian law that forbids gay to manifest or mention their sexual orientation. It's a matter of civil rights.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:03:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
When I was his age the cops would never have threatened to beat me up, they would have just done it.


And that makes it right?


A It puts your comment into perspective.
B You only have another taggers word for it that he was threatened.
C Police are more restrained, not less, as you implied.
D There is a lost more of this stuff going on than there was then.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/10/2013 1:07:52 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:06:24 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Lucy here is another... I've found it is easy to find supporting evidence and proof that tasers have reduced injuries to both officers and suspects. I could post the usual twenty or thirty links but they are there if you want to look.

But again I agree maybe the police are trigger happy with this device that at least CAN still kill or injure...but in the end it has saved many more lives and injuries than it has taken... So it is better to use then not.

Butch

The fact that is widely ignored here is that the taser is used TO AVOID INJURY TO THE SUSPECT, cops were not given them out of concern for the cops safety.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:10:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I'm not saying you were stupid. I'm just saying that around criminals, that behavior you described would have probably led to you becoming "The decedent" sooner rather than later and another one would be chalked up to Darwin.
Cops have this weird desire.
They don't want their spouse to be widowed or their kids to lose a parent.


probably stupid was not the right word, let say naive. I don't say the cop acted out of the law, I don't know what says the law in the state of florida about it (I asked in another post but had no response), what I'm doing is giving a moral critic as for my cultural background an uniform brings power but also responsibilities that are not required to a civilian, being that way of dealing the problem cleary outlaw in the country I live, like many criticized the russian law that forbids gay to manifest or mention their sexual orientation. It's a matter of civil rights.



Again I suggest you google Jim Masterson to see what undue concern for the suspects safety gets you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:12:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


the kid had avoided contact for the whole chasing,
.
If I was alone I don't know if I used the taser or not in that situation, probably only if the person I was chasing was bigger than me, but overnumbering I would for sure stepped back so my colleague could takle from flanks. Does it put me in danger? I think remotely but anyway for me this would be my duty instead using a painfull and dangerouse weapon.

I'm going to type this slowly so you can understand it.

He was running toward the cop (otherwise, he would have taken the shot in the ass not the chest)
It was dark.
Does that put you in danger? Damn right it does because it's DARK and you don't know what is in his hands.
Ever been cut with a knife? I have. Being cut superficially isn't that bad, the healing is a bitch. Taking one in the guts I have heard is anywhere from excruciating to fatal.
With the effective range of a tazer (under 20 feet) you have a half second to act.

The decedent was committing a crime (stupid decision #1)
The decedent led the cops on a long foot chase (stupid decision #2)
He then ran AT the officers instead of giving up (stupid decision #3)

Strike 1
Strike 2
Strike 3 He's out and chalk another one up for Darwin.

Never give the other guy an even chance if you want to go home to your family.

You are ruining this thread by applying common sense to this situation.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:19:19 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

A It puts your comment into perspective.
B You only have another taggers word for it that he was threatened.


Going off the information in the article, this is true. However, let's face it, beatings by the police are not unheard of for lesser crimes. Is it out of the realm of possibility that this tagger was telling the truth? Nope, it isn't.


quote:

C Police are more restrained, not less, as you implied.


I implied nothing, I was quite clear when the entire post is taken in context.

This was graffiti. Someone died. Somehow the two just don't add up in my mind.

You didn't answer my original question. Does it make it right or not?





_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:24:45 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Again I suggest you google Jim Masterson to see what undue concern for the suspects safety gets you.


I found a guy that died for tubercolosis in 1895 and another guy that massages horses... maybe there is some location setting so what exactly should I see?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:26:23 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

heh, I know this may be hard to believe, but I wasnt actually trying to make the comparison on the numbers, more that canada is using them with as many problems as the US:) but there is a petition calling more better/more guidelines for training police to use them, But I had a brain fart and forgot to put that in the post...
I am pretty disgusted with the police here in toronto over the shooting death of an 18 year old last week, their actions over occupy people and the G20 summit bullshit.
but the petition states that police draw their tasers 1000 times a year in canada and along with amnesty are asking for stricter guidelines and tighter restrictions
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/476/851/662/train-edmonton-police-not-to-taze-first-ask-questions-later/
theres naff all I can do about cops killing people accidentally or otherwise in the US, so Im doing what I can here in canada.


oh I know you werent making a comparison.. but I was curious on why the fairly big difference.. probably mostly a different culture (not as hard-core as the US & gun laws help too imo).. still, I am grateful the numbers are not as high and as often used as in the US.. and I expect any country whose police force uses them has the same problems cuz they are not as non-lethal as the mfrs wanna make out.. There are certain industries I find very vile and weapon mfrs are in that category, along with cig mfrs & Monsanto, etc..

I have never been east of Alberta and my experience with the "east" was thru my ex cuz thats where he was from.. he left Toronto cuz he was 18 and a cop had a hard-on for him & was harassing him, it wasnt gonna stop so his lawyer suggested he move to get away from the guy so thats what he did.. If a kid is old enough to move and get away from a situation where the cops are targeting him, then he should do that and start a new life.. sounds like the cops in FL knew this kid and were in at least some respect gunning for him..

I remember when tazers were first starting to be used in BC by cops and i didnt like it then, dont like it now either.. There seems to have been changes to taser use in BC tho.. that needs to be done across the country.. and of course, that doesnt mean zero taser deaths, just less of them..

"Expert testimony to the committee indicated Taser use had dropped 87 per cent between 2007 and 2011, in part because officers are scared to use the devices due to bad publicity."
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/b-c-mlas-satisfied-with-taser-changes-made-by-government-police-1.87290

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:28:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

A It puts your comment into perspective.
B You only have another taggers word for it that he was threatened.


Going off the information in the article, this is true. However, let's face it, beatings by the police are not unheard of for lesser crimes. Is it out of the realm of possibility that this tagger was telling the truth? Nope, it isn't.


quote:

C Police are more restrained, not less, as you implied.


I implied nothing, I was quite clear when the entire post is taken in context.

This was graffiti. Someone died. Somehow the two just don't add up in my mind.

You didn't answer my original question. Does it make it right or not?





A If it happened, exactly the way the other tagger said it did with no other contributing factors, no.
B The phrase "when did it become
implies strongly, whether you realize it or not, that it wasn't and now
it is. It also implies that this is an escalation on the part of the police.
C The taser was used for the tagger's protection, to fall back to something less dangerous to him would
require that the police stay in the station and hope he turns himself in. I suspect congenital heart
problems, for all we know the strain of running from the cops may be what killed him.
D Lets face it even minor criminals lie about the police all the time.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/10/2013 1:30:44 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Gauge)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:37:44 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Lucy here is another... I've found it is easy to find supporting evidence and proof that tasers have reduced injuries to both officers and suspects. I could post the usual twenty or thirty links but they are there if you want to look.

But again I agree maybe the police are trigger happy with this device that at least CAN still kill or injure...but in the end it has saved many more lives and injuries than it has taken... So it is better to use then not even with some abuse.

Butch

LMFAO
Thanks for the afterthoughts

Made you think and actually look for information
well done

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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:41:53 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Regarding chest shots with tazers and their 'inadvisability'.

Tazers aren't particularly accurate. The relevant part starts on page 89 http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/pdffiles/psdb09-02.pdf

They don't even shoot straight. The barbs shoot out at an angle to each other and hit a foot to 3 feet apart at normal operating ranges. Aiming anywhere but center mass is just about a guaranteed miss.

and yet...

"Taser training materials are mostly provided by Taser International, the private company that makes the weapon. Relying on a private, for-profit company that has a vested interest in promoting and selling their product for training guidelines is not only nonsensical, but dangerous. For example, though Taser International advises officers against administering a shock to the victim’s chest, it does not prohibit targeting this area. In fact, Taser minimizes the potential risk of death or cardiac trauma, instead emphasizing a need to insulate police officers – and itself – from the legal ramifications associated with a shock to the chest. The company goes on to recommend against aiming for the chest because “shots to the chest, particularly at close range, are frequently ineffective because of the lack of major muscle groups in the chest area.” It’s not difficult to see why relying on Taser International’s profit-seeking and liability-evading advice, rather than on rigorous and objective scientific evidence, is both unwise and unsafe."
http://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/tasers-no-longer-non-lethal-alternative-law-enforcement

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:43:33 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		^ ?? what else are you going to shock?

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:45:13 PM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

A If it happened, exactly the way the other tagger said it did with no other contributing factors, no.
B The phrase "when did it become
implies strongly, whether you realize it or not, that it wasn't and now
it is. It also implies that this is an escalation on the part of the police.
C The taser was used for the tagger's protection, to fall back to something less dangerous to him would
require that the police stay in the station and hope he turns himself in. I suspect congenital heart
problems, for all we know the strain of running from the cops may be what killed him.
D Lets face it even minor criminals lie about the police all the time.


Graffiti. Not violent crime. Graffiti. The police response was not proportionate to the crime committed. You do not hunt down a vandal with 5 officers. You hunt a violent offender with 5 cops, not a kid with a spray can of paint. The only response that was ultimately correct by the police was when the suspect charged the cops and they fired the tazer. The kid died... over graffiti. I cannot make that equation work in my head. I am not disputing that the kid was stupid for what he did, but the response by the police is equally questionable except for the firing of the tazer.

Whether you want to admit it or not the police did escalate the situation when they called additional units to find and subdue a graffiti suspect. The kid ran, sure, I get that... but the cops knew who he was, and the police never said he had a weapon of any kind making the situation turn from errant stupid kid with a spray can into potentially violent suspect. It would be like calling a nation wide manhunt for a shoplifter.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: 19 yr old tagger, tazed, died, do you care? - 8/10/2013 1:53:52 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

^ ?? what else are you going to shock?

ask the manufacturer that question.. its the manufacturer that is recommending against aiming for the chest.. wouldnt ya think they should know how their weapon operates and consequences?

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 160
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