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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 4:37:15 AM

dollenburg

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Still wondering what "internal enslavement" is ...

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 5:47:48 AM

evesgrden

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quote:

IE (version 1): When the slave actually sees herself as owned property deep in her own self image and similarly for the master. In other words, we have progressed beyond "agreements" here to a more binding form of hierarchy. Note that there is no implication here about any particular span of control. This is all about internal self-image which is very binding but undefined as to the specifics.

later I moved the bar to my current definition

IE (version 2): When the control wielded by the master works on her mind as well as her body (eg: internally). In our relationship that is encapsulated in this:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.

I don't believe IE, the way you've described it above, exists.

1. If Jeff isn't adequately informed about something and makes an incorrect pronouncement, while Carol is fully informed and realizes that Jeff is in error, I do not believe there are circumstances under which Carol's reality will alter itself and she will believe her data is wrong merely because of what Jeff has said. The only way I think this is possible is for Jeff to have a history with Carol of being correct 100% of the time, even in the face of Carol having conflicting evidence which ultimately proved to be unfounded. But that occurs out of the experience of Jeff being right all the time and has nothing to do with Jeff right because Jeff is her Master.

2. If Jeff said it was proper to show up at funeral butt nekkid singing "Oh What a Beautiful Morning", once again we'd have to do somehow undo everything Carol has learned about what is proper and what is not, and have what Jeff says be proper because.... she knows that Jeff is right. Actually this seems like a subset of "Jeff is right".

3. Jeff likes seafood and thinks seafood is good. Carol is allergic to seafood and is in serious trouble if she consumes any and doesn't have an epi pen. I just cannot see the circumstances under which Carol would believe that seafood is good. Or if we're talking about goodness with respect to ethics, again we'd have to somehow undo Carol's lifelong experiences and re-educate her if you will.

Jeff, I think I have to question your definition of IE. Perhaps it's as simple as a total comfort with the hierarchy and the submissive not fearing their own dissenting opinion, but knowing deep down beforehand that their opinion, even when correct might not count for squat and that's ok with them. As long as they know when to voice it and when not, all is good. Perhaps the IE is about just being comfortable with the fact that the dominant is in charge.. no matter what and it feels right and it's natural. It become so natural and second nature that it's hardly noteworthy.

you got me thinking here :)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 6:51:45 AM

VanillaKinkTwist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:

IE (version 1): When the slave actually sees herself as owned property deep in her own self image and similarly for the master. In other words, we have progressed beyond "agreements" here to a more binding form of hierarchy. Note that there is no implication here about any particular span of control. This is all about internal self-image which is very binding but undefined as to the specifics.

later I moved the bar to my current definition

IE (version 2): When the control wielded by the master works on her mind as well as her body (eg: internally). In our relationship that is encapsulated in this:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.

I don't believe IE, the way you've described it above, exists.

1. If Jeff isn't adequately informed about something and makes an incorrect pronouncement, while Carol is fully informed and realizes that Jeff is in error, I do not believe there are circumstances under which Carol's reality will alter itself and she will believe her data is wrong merely because of what Jeff has said. The only way I think this is possible is for Jeff to have a history with Carol of being correct 100% of the time, even in the face of Carol having conflicting evidence which ultimately proved to be unfounded. But that occurs out of the experience of Jeff being right all the time and has nothing to do with Jeff right because Jeff is her Master.

2. If Jeff said it was proper to show up at funeral butt nekkid singing "Oh What a Beautiful Morning", once again we'd have to do somehow undo everything Carol has learned about what is proper and what is not, and have what Jeff says be proper because.... she knows that Jeff is right. Actually this seems like a subset of "Jeff is right".

3. Jeff likes seafood and thinks seafood is good. Carol is allergic to seafood and is in serious trouble if she consumes any and doesn't have an epi pen. I just cannot see the circumstances under which Carol would believe that seafood is good. Or if we're talking about goodness with respect to ethics, again we'd have to somehow undo Carol's lifelong experiences and re-educate her if you will.

Wow, we think alike...

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
Perhaps the IE is about just being comfortable with the fact that the dominant is in charge.. no matter what and it feels right and it's natural. It become so natural and second nature that it's hardly noteworthy.

This I think is more to the point...or at least I understand it more. Sometimes you just have to be saying the same thing in a different way for me to get it....like math (I hate math).

Anyway, I'm going to try and refrain from posting from now on unless I come up with an understanding and an actual answer to the questions originally posed.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 8:05:25 AM

kiwisub12

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I was in a relationship with a dom, where I wasn't allowed to use his bathroom.

The few times I ever did, I felt as if I was doing something wrong.

And I still have time referring to him by his first name , even though he has been dead for three years.

I don't know that this is IE. There was nothing illogical about his commands/decisions, so I feel as if there was nothing for me to "rebel" against. So how would I know that I was IE'ed?

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 9:13:43 AM

deliriuminabox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Yes yes... but for all that, what IS an "IE" dynamic in your opinion? Inquiring original posters want to know :)

I'm going to have to go back and read the rest of the thread so I apologize if I'm about to repeat something someone else has already said.

The thing that made it an IE dynamic as opposed to a TPE dynamic for me was that I could not leave him. That's an extreme over-simplification of the situation but that's really what it boiled down to. Without him telling me to go, I couldn't do it. It didn't matter how much emotional or physical distress I was in at the time, I could not simply walk out that door. The door wasn't locked. Its not as if he had me chained to a radiator.

At that time I literally lived for him. I woke up and my first thought was of him. When I went to sleep I dreamt of him. He was the absolute center of my universe so the concept of a life without him just didn't exist for me. I experienced this with three consecutive men in my late teens/early 20's. The first relationship lasted for about 16 months. The second one lasted for 3 years and the third one lasted for a little over 2. I was homeless for a few weeks to a few months in between each of these 'relationships' ... Basically until the next man came along and took me home like a stray puppy.

Each time when he was finished, he'd tell me to leave and I would go but until he actually told me to get out of his life, I couldn't even conceive of it. I was worse than Sheela (sorry, just making my point) .... I didn't entertain the idea of communication. His word was law. I didn't argue or bargain or try to work it out. There was no compromise. If he said it, that was it. He was perfect and if there were any problems in the dynamic, they were due to my flaws. That wasn't just how I thought, its what I believed. That may not be anyone else's definition of IE but for me that's the only label that seems to fit.

To me, a TPE is different than IE because I've been able to walk away from a TPE relationship. I retain enough of my sense of self that if the relationship is no longer healthy for me, I can pack my bags and walk away. I couldn't walk away from an IE. Also, when the IE ended, it was much more mentally (rather than just emotionally) devestating. It was like having to learn how to live as an adult all over again. For me anyway.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 9:23:12 AM

deliriuminabox

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Having read the rest of the thread so far, I realize I've probably opened myself up to be told that I wasn't in an IE dynamic at all but rather I was severely co-dependent. And that might be true.

At the time, I didn't consciously think in terms of:
What Master thinks is right, IS right.
What Master thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Master thinks is good, IS good.

But that is a very accurate description of how my thoughts were overwritten by those of the man I was with. I didn't question him and if someone else were to question him, I would either ignore them completely or passionately defend him because he was RIGHT. So I guess it wasn't as simple as not being able to leave him. It was deeper than that.

Like kiwi mentioned as well, I still have a hard time referring to any of those men by their given names. There are still rules and protocols I unconsciously follow.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 9:32:51 AM

catize

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Your definition of IE is pretty damn scary. I don't see how anyone can change another's core beliefs or feelings without damaging the relationship.
I hate beets. I hate the texture, the taste, I don't even like the color. If the person who is dominant to me said I had to eat beets every day, I could and I would for quite awhile. I may even get used to the texture and taste. I would understand they are good for me and it pleases him that I eat them on a daily basis. But I know, within myself, there would come a time when I would be resentful and throw them at him and walk out.
If he told me to be happy about something that always makes me sad, I'd look at him and tell him to get happiness himself with someone else.
If he told me to do something that I find reprehensible, I may do it, even get used to it, but if I end up being happy about it, then my core has been revealed, not changed.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 9:55:13 AM

deliriuminabox

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The thing to bear in mind though is that my experiences were negative. There are several people on this forum who have IE relationships that work well. Obviously there are right and wrong ways to go about it.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 10:18:50 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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FR:

The abuser/victim relationship is probably the most well known and well studied example of internal enslavement gone horribly wrong. But internal enslavement is not necessarily a negative -- internal enslavement can be a positive. In my mind, most successful relationship share aspects of internal enslavement.

But let's define our term. In my mind, internal enslavement is the process of molding and manipulating a person to the extent they are emotionally bound to the enslaver and feel they can't live w/o him/her. They have to obey and agree b/c to do anything else is to break the bond, and breaking the bond means (emotional) death.

How do others feel about this definition?

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 10:44:56 AM

littlewonder

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Kana here.
My thoughts:

I kinda agree with KoM in that I see IE as being the driver behind our interaction. I say this meaning that the control I have stems from the IE, the fact that she trusts me enough to let go and obey, a trust that has been validated over the years.

To differentiate IE from a TPE, I would say that a TPE is focused primarily on the power exchange-that it can be a straight PE only. Think of a TPE as being possibly external only, wherein she gives with her body but there is no spiritual/mental connection.

Whereas, for me, IE is more an emotive thing, an internal, so to speak.
It's digging down deep within her, setting the anchor hooks of command/control within her heart and head. It's far less about binding the body (Though that can, and often is, a big part of it) than enchaining her mind, and spirit.
Now, does this differentiate from other types of enslavement?
In some ways yes, and in some ways no. Depends on how it's enacted in the relationship.
Usually an IE blurs into lots of other areas. In fact, I think it's fairly safe to say that often IE is the locus, or at least helps form the root, of many BDSM and especially D/S relationships. In the Venn diagram of BDSM, there's a whole lot of interlocking/overlapping areas. IE is one of them.
But at the same time, a couple could exist purely within an IE. No bondage. No physical play. just straight mental control. Think something like a straight fifties household existence.

But I suspect that the latter is far less common than the prior

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 12:03:21 PM

getoutnow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Your definition of IE is pretty damn scary. I don't see how anyone can change another's core beliefs or feelings without damaging the relationship.
I hate beets. I hate the texture, the taste, I don't even like the color. If the person who is dominant to me said I had to eat beets every day, I could and I would for quite awhile. I may even get used to the texture and taste. I would understand they are good for me and it pleases him that I eat them on a daily basis. But I know, within myself, there would come a time when I would be resentful and throw them at him and walk out.
If he told me to be happy about something that always makes me sad, I'd look at him and tell him to get happiness himself with someone else.
If he told me to do something that I find reprehensible, I may do it, even get used to it, but if I end up being happy about it, then my core has been revealed, not changed.

I absolutely adore TPE/IE. It's at the core of any relationship I do. I forget the poster who said it, that sane people wouldnt ask another to cut off their arm. He is exactly right.

When I enter into a TPE/IE relationship with a sub. It's to get the complete best out of them. Lets say they are a smoker, they just can't quit. Within weeks they do. Or if they are 50lbs over weight. Within weeks, they drop down to their ideal weight.

Here is the analogy people know. guns dont kill people, people kill people. The same is said for TPE/IE, you can use it to better your relationship or you can use it to seriously screw up a sub.

I am for the former.

p.s I hate beets too and that girl/guy should have been slapped for suggesting someone eat them lol.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 1:27:00 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

1. If Jeff isn't adequately informed about something and makes an incorrect pronouncement, while Carol is fully informed and realizes that Jeff is in error, I do not believe there are circumstances under which Carol's reality will alter itself and she will believe her data is wrong merely because of what Jeff has said.

You'd be wrong about that, at least as far as behavioral output goes.

It's been well documented that people will conform to what they factually know to be incorrect data under the pressure of a group conforming to that same wrong data.

Considering how easy it is to get people to act on what they know to be incorrect data from little to no peer pressure from a group of absolute strangers, it isn't that hard to see how IE with a person capable and long standing record of being in charge could do the same with ease.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDDyT1lDhA

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

2. If Jeff said it was proper to show up at funeral butt nekkid singing "Oh What a Beautiful Morning", once again we'd have to do somehow undo everything Carol has learned about what is proper and what is not, and have what Jeff says be proper because.... she knows that Jeff is right. Actually this seems like a subset of "Jeff is right".

That's exactly the point, in order to achieve a state of mind in which "what Jeff thinks is proper is proper" Carol would have to unlearn using her own standards, or the standards people in her past have taught her to operate under.

Once you realize that nearly all the standards human beings hold to determine what is proper are artificial social constructs that have no factual basis for being proper, you'll see that doing that wouldn't be that hard.

For various nature tribes, showing up to a funeral naked wouldn't be a big deal at all, because doing so is completely culturally acceptable to them. Nearly all the standards we use are culturally determined in such a way, and by abiding by them, we are all seeking approval of our peer groups.

The way a California party girl shows up to a funeral wouldn't be the same as the way a strict religious mormon woman would, so all Jeff would have to do to make Carol comfortable with showing up to a funeral naked, is change the set of standards she uses to determine what's proper and what's not, from the common social ones, to the less common ones of a hard core nudist (of course providing we're speaking of a legal district where public nudity is legal, which isn't the case in most of the US, but is the case in a lot of other jurisdictions world wide).

Doing so wouldn't require much more than changing the peer acceptance she's seeking by abiding by norms of 'properness' from 'seeking the approval of society at large' to 'seeking the approval of Jeff'.

You can't do something like that overnight, but when you've got the right personality, and the sub has the right personality, it really isn't all that hard to accomplish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

3. Jeff likes seafood and thinks seafood is good. Carol is allergic to seafood and is in serious trouble if she consumes any and doesn't have an epi pen. I just cannot see the circumstances under which Carol would believe that seafood is good. Or if we're talking about goodness with respect to ethics, again we'd have to somehow undo Carol's lifelong experiences and re-educate her if you will.

Now you're making the rather weird assumptions that Jeff would even consider "seafood is good for Carol" when Carol is allergic to seafood, or that Jeff would want Carol to operate under the idea that "everything that Jeff deems good for himself is by default good for Carol" which isn't even implied by the statement "what Jeff thinks is good is good".

My dog loves chocolate, it's also very very bad for her. So while I think chocolate is good for me, I don't think chocolate is good for her.

With Carol and Jeff it would be the same way. If Carol is allergic to seafood, but still loves to eat it, the paradigm Jeff would have her operate under -even if he loves seafood himself- would be "seafood is bad for Carol". The fact that he happens to like it, and that she happens to like it wouldn't impact the fact that the value he'd instill in her would be "Jeff thinks seafood is bad for Carol, therefore seafood IS bad for Carol".

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 1:41:36 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deliriuminabox
Having read the rest of the thread so far, I realize I've probably opened myself up to be told that I wasn't in an IE dynamic at all but rather I was severely co-dependent. And that might be true.

I would surely hope this thread doesn't devolve into a label definition thread. Had I wanted one of those I could have asked about the difference between sub & slave :)

quote:

But that is a very accurate description of how my thoughts were overwritten by those of the man I was with. I didn't question him and if someone else were to question him, I would either ignore them completely or passionately defend him because he was RIGHT. So I guess it wasn't as simple as not being able to leave him. It was deeper than that.

*nod* Carol and I just sort of took that ball and ran with it. Sometimes Kana shoves squid up LW's cunt. Sometimes I shove ideas up Carol's mind LOL. For whatever reasons I chose to explore the limits of authority, control, and influence inside her brain... probably because I'm not that sexual but I've always been fascinated by human minds.

quote:

deliriuminabox: The thing to bear in mind though is that my experiences were negative. There are several people on this forum who have IE relationships that work well. Obviously there are right and wrong ways to go about it.
ChatteParfaitt: The abuser/victim relationship is probably the most well known and well studied example of internal enslavement gone horribly wrong. But internal enslavement is not necessarily a negative -- internal enslavement can be a positive. In my mind, most successful relationship share aspects of internal enslavement

Yeah, basically that. It IS dangerous because it requires both an incorruptible owner and at least a halfway decent leader... neither is exactly easy to find. That doesn't mean it's impossible. If I were to try to single tail Carol it'd be a bloody disaster (literally). That doesn't mean using a single tail is impossible. It just means I can't do it.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 1:46:09 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
But let's define our term. In my mind, internal enslavement is the process of molding and manipulating a person to the extent they are emotionally bound to the enslaver and feel they can't live w/o him/her. They have to obey and agree b/c to do anything else is to break the bond, and breaking the bond means (emotional) death.

This would (to me at least) roughly map to what I think of as "The BDSM version" and also my "version 1" (which was my own source material... I just upped the bar later on because that's what you do when you achieve a goal). Also, honestly, long before any collar this would probably have been mostly true of Carol and I... maybe not in an absolute obedience sense but separating/divorcing was never on the list of "possible things to do". Breaking the bond is just not a thing that's going to happen. I might as well amputate the left half of my body. I'd actually prefer that :)

PS: To everyone on this thread. Thanks for contributing and "keeping it clean" I appreciate the discussion flavor of this rather than a label war.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 1:58:53 PM

JeffBC

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Ishtar:
Basically, yes to everything, no need to requote it all.

I'd just like to add that I'm not in the habit of showing her a red square and saying, "This is blue". I think the "I'm not an idiot" bit has to factor in here somewhere.

Kana:
Big surprise here but you and I are seeing it identically. I just think I have a mind-kink the way you have a sex-kink so I explore this stuff with a lot more vigor and depth. I'm not distracted by lip stapling and blowtorches :) it's kind of obvious though reading LW's posts that you have all the same foundation as I do inside her mind. You could do a lot of the same things I do and probably the only significant difference is the "practice makes perfect" bit.

As an example, for a while there I'd give her radical viewpoint changes and a short time to get it done. So she was consciously under pressure to snap her head into a new viewpoint. You do that for a few years and the person gets faster and more comfortable doing it.

The only thing I'd note is that while I agree with your venn diagram you are discussing core stuff. I agree, at the core, it all flows from that point. But I wouldn't call someone "an IE dynamic" if there was just a tiny trickle flowing from that core.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 1:59:13 PM

DesFIP

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There's been another thread by some young girl who is being controlled in a manner that makes her unhappy.
That's TPE because she has no rights other than granted to her.

It isn't IE because she is made unhappy by it.

In IE the slave comes to feel that the Owner is almost always right, and wants to turn to the owner. Wants to do what he/she desires. It isn't inflicted on her causing her to feel trapped and unhappy.

I don't think you can point to anything and say "this is the line". It's how the person comes to think.

For us, it was very much not the end goal for either of us. He has internal objections to viewing himself as that autocratic. I sure as hell didn't sit down and say "On my list of compatible qualities, the desire for IE or O/p is high up there".

He's just constitutionally incapable of not taking over, given half a chance.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 2:01:21 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
I absolutely adore TPE/IE. It's at the core of any relationship I do. I forget the poster who said it, that sane people wouldnt ask another to cut off their arm. He is exactly right.

Just for the record, I'd expect Carol to obey that command. There are, in fact, sane situations in which that would be the right command and if I gave the command I'd hope Carol had the trust required to execute it. In real life, of course, such situations are very rare and the reasoning behind the command would almost certainly be obvious to her. In my best ability to ACTUALLY look at commands like that they are the easy ones.

quote:

Here is the analogy people know. guns dont kill people, people kill people. The same is said for TPE/IE, you can use it to better your relationship or you can use it to seriously screw up a sub.

Yeah, that. :)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 2:16:32 PM

Kana

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quote:

I just think I have a mind-kink the way you have a sex-kink so I explore this stuff with a lot more vigor and depth.

You hurt me Jeff, selling me short like that.
I'm a greedy fucker. I don't have a one or the other kink.I posses an all of it fucking kink.
I fuck with her mind. I fuck with her heart.I ravish and despoil her slut slave body.
It's all one and the same to me, each bleeds into the other and vice versa. :-)

And purely for the record, I have yet to feed her "Mouse-amari." It's actually on this weekends menu though (may take some pics, give the lilone a new main profile pic

). As of now,it's one of those mind fucks that we are discussing. The IE is that she knows that it's coming (With me she's knows that pretty much anything's game,with a few exceptions that I just find personally gross), absolutely dreads and abhors it, but will do it anyhow. And that I've been planting this seed for ages, giving it a nice proper build up.

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Post #: 38

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 2:23:52 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
You hurt me Jeff, selling me short like that.

ROFL, I'm sure I've damaged your obviously very delicate ego.

quote:

I'm a greedy fucker. I don't have a one or the other kink.I posses an all of it fucking kink.
I fuck with her mind. I fuck with her heart.I ravish and despoil her slut slave body.
It's all one and the same to me, each bleeds into the other and vice versa

. :-)

No doubt. But focus matters, neh? Then again, perhaps you have been doing specific training on this point and it just never got posted or I missed it. In the end, hardly matters since it's abundantly obvious that you could have it if you wanted it.

Oh, about the mouse-amari" -- pics or it never happened LOL

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/10/2013 2:24:13 PM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 2:26:00 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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I think the bedrock of all good marriages is the concept that breaking the bond is 'not on the list of possible things to do.' Problems and issues are handled as a team.

Which brings us to why internal enslavement has such a bad rap. Clearly, highly manipulative and controlling individuals can do a great deal of damage to someone's head. I know, I've been on the receiving end.

But not every manipulative and controlling individual is looking for a victim. And not everyone who has been internally enslaved in a negative way has a victim mentality. This kind of manipulation can be incredibly insidious.

Anyone can be internally enslaved, given the right set of circumstances, and Stockholm Syndrome is but one example.

It takes great skill to emotionally manipulate someone and achieve the outcome you planned on. You may initially achieve it, but humans are tricky creatures and you never know what strange things are going to burst forth from the subconscious, you know?

As regards some earlier questions, I don't think it's possible to separate an authority dynamic or TPE from internal enslavement, since there are too many overlaps, and each relationship will have it's own unique combination of all three.

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