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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 4:23:37 PM

KnightofMists

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

The only thing I'd note is that while I agree with your venn diagram you are discussing core stuff. I agree, at the core, it all flows from that point. But I wouldn't call someone "an IE dynamic" if there was just a tiny trickle flowing from that core.

From a trickle comes a flood. The key is knowing how to turn that tap. Many a Dominant turns the tap and what they create is a authority transfer that is externally dependent on the Dominant. But causing the s-type to turn that tap on their own accord builds that internal enslavement and turns a trickle to a flood.

My girls are compelled to serve, compelled to follow. They do so not for the external satisfactions gain by the given actions. But internal they gain a contentment and gratification far greater than any external reward or punishment for that matter. To me this is more than just emotive drive. I see it more as transcendent in its direction. We as humans largely have a deep seeded drive to connect with others. To be more than just our feelings, thoughts. Maslow described it as a need to belong. Deci and Rice called it relatedness. Regardless of what one calls it. I see it as one feeling and thinking themselves as More! There is no words I can truly give it. I do find that those who find it in their relationship understand it. When you see such people you just know they have it. This isn't about M/s. it's about those individuals that connect to each other that surpasses anything one can image. In this lifestyle, when that right D type and s type connect together they create it. It feels surreal and unbelievable at first. You feel compelled to test it and check it. At times you feel a fear of loosing it. In time you realize that it can't go anywhere. You just know! Nothing is rational about it, no feelings or thoughts can express it.

I just know! That my three slaves are mine! Just as they know they are owned. We learn to dance together to express ourselves to each other. The thing with internal external enslavement is that it goes both ways. My girls are compelled to follow me as I am compelled to lead them. To lead us. We four are one now. We use to be three and before that two and one. I am one

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 61

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 5:20:36 PM

violetchild

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/19/2010
Status: offline

Thanks A/all for this very interesting thread

quote:

1) Are you in or do you desire to be in an IE dynamic?
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

.

1. NO WAY!!

ive suffered greatly in the past due to TPE relationships where possibly some IE did go on (i say probably as the level of control the other had over me, well lots of people in this community didnt understand it at all, they thought i was being ridiculous for just not being able to break off a relationship doing me a lot of damage and just leave it. Most of this community had no understanding that i just couldnt leave (the old posts of mine are now gone, they must clear them out after a while).

Instead of being able to leave such relationships, ive become suicidal due to just NOT being able to leave when i know for my own health and sanity, i needed to leave. i couldnt leave as my inner view was i was i OWNED. i wasnt playing being owned but truely felt/believed i was. i truely did see myself as the others slave. (there was no such thing as a safe word in these relationships as why would i have one when it was the other who had the control?).

It was mental bondage that prevented me from being able to leave and even then i had to get help from others in the BDSM community before i could leave as i wasnt strong enough to stand up to him mentally cause he owned me. i would of immediately gone right back with him if i found myself facing him and he just said "you are going home" or "coming with me"". (i had no physical fear of what He'd do, so it wasnt like an abused person fearing being beat up or even a fear at all of Him, which preventing me from being able to leave without help).

From my reaction, my fear i'd come in contact with him, others thought He must of kept me locked up or beat me but He didnt need to, the chains were in my own mind and i knew He carried the power over me (the fear was with myself and my need to obey Him). i couldnt leave Him when He was there cause i couldnt disobey and when He'd leave the house and go out, He'd lock the door. Note that locked door it was one in which i could of unlocked from the inside but to me.. HE LOCKED THE DOOR, so i couldnt couldnt undo what He did, it was a mental bondage thing, thou physically i could of easily done but due to the mental, i couldnt do it. So it to me it was locking me in and prevented me from being able to leave a very bad relationship for me which was mentally damaging.

So when i did manage to break this chain briefly and flee . i cant remember now, He may of forgot to lock the door so allowed me to break the thing the locked door helped signify (i fled with no money and was in a different country to my own too where i knew no one at all so had to seek help from strangers in the BDSM community), i had to find others to put a barrier there between me and Him so i didnt end up back to Him. One word from Him and i would of again been under His total control again. as thou i'd fled, i still innerly saw myself as His.

ive lost a daughter throu putting too much control over me in anothers hands and going against what i'd known had been the right thing for me to do due to what the other wanted. Thou i completely disagreed with what He had wanted me to do, i did it anyway, working on my mind until doing that thing i'd been completely against became OK for me to do. Anyway.. this lead to the loss of my child who now wont even speak to me.

Anyway.. NO WAY again to these kinds of relationships. i will not allow myself to ever get into slave mind set again where another has total control over me cause it is highly dangerous, can lead to suicidial feels if the Dom isnt a good one or craziness. Ones mind can only take so much and everything is so very heightened when another has full control over you and you know you would do anything they say even if you dont at all believe they are correct but will instead work then hard to change your own beliefs to match theirs so anything can literally become then okay. If i'd been told to go and kill myself, i think i would of done it, i even considered if i'd kill another if i was told, i saw myself as a extension of the other and not like someone who should have any will myself (as i said, i did something which i knew i'd loose my child over, convinced myself as per my Doms wish it was actually okay). i gave away my friends for 2 of these kinds of Doms etc. ive lost a lot throu giving away my own power and my own will and thoughts.

< Message edited by violetchild -- 8/11/2013 5:49:25 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 62

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 5:32:21 PM

Domnotlooking

Posts: 249
Joined: 8/11/2013
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I'm more of an ego guy: reduce their's, purify mine.

If their's is subsumed, and mine is strengthened in a healthy, relationship-minded way, we're sorta drifting into IE-land without all the complications listed by the nice person above.

And it's a win/win. If their ego is lessened and mine is cleansed, we're good to go no matter how things shake out.

(in reply to violetchild)

Post #: 63

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 5:38:24 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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Aren't you concerned she will then have low self esteem and confidence??

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Post #: 64

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 5:48:00 PM

immoral

Posts: 99
Joined: 6/9/2006
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thankyou.....this thread has been really interesting ..I hadn't ever given any thought to the idea that some people didn't have this dynamic..for me I assumed you are owned and the trust love support nurturing etc etc etc etc......the list goes on.......just naturally engenders this kind of IE I thought everyone has it.......
.so- I learned a new thing......thankyou

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 65

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 6:03:17 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

...... ive lost a lot throu giving away my own power and my own will and thoughts.

That's the thing to me..... One doesn't give their power. In fact. To my way of thinking..... They are empowered by the internal enslavement as i am. My one girl Alandra calls it Freedom! To me... It's a power enhancing relationship to be bonded to my three girls as they are to me. We each are enriched and become empowered as we are able to be ourselves to each other in the core. We are vulnerable and invulnerable at the same time.

What you describe I see as far from being internal enslavement from what you describe. Feelings powerless is very much the opposite of what my girls have discovered.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to violetchild)

Post #: 66

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 6:38:59 PM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
IE, is that it implies internalisation and the most interesting aspect of that (from my point of view), is Identity and what exactly goes on there when this shift occurs...

To make sure I have you right, the corresponding item in our marriage is me commanding Carol to change her self-image to that of "owned property" rather than "wife".

Interestingly, I failed at that. Heh, it took me a while to figure out why but the simple answer is that's a very conceptual thought and Carol is a very experiential woman. She couldn't understand what I wanted. In point of fact, what I wanted doesn't even really exist in her world.

quote:

but as far as getting a woman to the point where her identity is, existing as an expression of my will... Noo.

For the record, perhaps someone, somewhere got to that place but I sure have not. I was given raw material to work with and I shape it as I am able. But there is no question that "as I am able" has limits as does the raw material. Carol's identity is Carol's. She's just comfortable letting me rummage around in it from time to time. There is generally a tendency to go to hyperbole which I try to avoid. I think your statement works as a goal though.

I'm not sure if you've got me right or not haha, was commanding your wife to change her self-image, meant to be taken as something you literally said? Because yer, I don't see that working...

When I talk about identity and it being an interesting thing when you start considering master/slave type dynamics, I'm really musing about things like, when someone says that the person they love is 'all of them', or when a person loses someone they love and they say things like 'a part of me died with them' or something similar...
I think it's interesting to think just how much truth is actually in those statements... Just how much do we as individuals place of ourselves into other people, or external things like position? The idea that our identity can encompass more than who we literally are like our roles and relationships...
When does attachment become entanglement, and in what way is somebody entangled? Emotional/physical needs? Becoming dependent? The relatedness/ desire to be connected, or to be something more (that KoM talks about) by becomming apart of something (or someone) 'greater' than themselves are very interesting ideas to consider.

And if it was hyperbole, I can't take credit for it... I was paraphrasing from KoM's first post, maybe he can clarify if he meant "that they are an expression of the master's will" as a kind of ideal or exageration.

I admit, I'm a fan of KoM's thinking most times, (if you couldn't already tell).

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 8/11/2013 6:59:08 PM >

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Post #: 67

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 7:20:01 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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Aries.... I think there is a key point that I haven't expressed. That is the identity factor. We all have a self identity of sorts. Some have a stronger ones than others. However, I believe that as a relationship we create an identity that we are a part of. We are all focused on putting the relationship identity first. As a Master and one with complete authority in this relationship identity. My will is the one with the hand on the wheel that steers us. Since its my will that guides this relationship they are focused and mindful to express my will in everything they do. So it is not so much an exaggeration or even an idea. It's how we live our relationship.

Now keep in mind. I am not saying this is all about me. Many I find speak about these relationships like it is about the D type. For me I seek an optimal relationship and my tag line very clear on what an optimal relationship is to me. It's not about me... It's about us!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ARIES83)

Post #: 68

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 8:46:24 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: violetchild
1. NO WAY!!

Well ok. But how do you really feel about it? :)

quote:

you know you would do anything they say even if you dont at all believe they are correct but will instead work then hard to change your own beliefs to match theirs so anything can literally become then okay.

Now THAT sounds familiar to me. Granted, your experience is the twisted and dark version of Carol's but the dynamic is the same.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to violetchild)

Post #: 69

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 9:21:10 PM

MasterofSteel

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliriuminabox

I'm not in an IE dynamic (or any dynamic at all presently) and my early experiences left a terrible taste in my mouth for quite a long time. When I was in my early 20s I tried to be in IE relationships with a few different doms and it just ended badly every single time ... Me homeless and him with a new girl because he'd gotten sick of me.

Now that I've had some time to grow up a bit and establish myself, I find that I'm curious about it but not really sure if its something I would be interested in ever trying again. I read a lot more than I post here and I've quietly observed several couples here on the forum who seem to make it work and that feeds my curiosity. Obviously when it works and its good, its very good.

I'll be reading this thread with interest. ^ ^

Not all are alike on this point, I would never throw a slave into the street, but I know it can be a problem for some slaves who have tried the experience to be thrown on the street, and especially to build new trust to a new ownership conditions.

If I get tired of a slave, or for some reason I do not want her anymore, then I find a new owner for her so she does not come out of eternal enslavement, but merely gets a new home., and a new owner .

As I see it, I would never just throw a dog out on the street, so why should I treat a slave worse than a dog, a simple answer is that I should not treat a slave worse than a dog, for me, dog ownership and slave ownership is almost the same, the difference is that I do not have sex with a dog, but I have sex with a slave, a dog is to pleas it´s owner, and it´s the same with a slave.

_____________________________

Visit my website for more info about me http://herrex.wix.com/masterofsteel Looking for slave girl to real life slavery.

(in reply to deliriuminabox)

Post #: 70

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 9:52:51 PM

MasterofSteel

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Joined: 8/5/2013
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quote:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.

It's just simple brainwashing, the technique is used by cults and sects all over the world, and of course, the technique can be used on a slave too, I personally prefer to create stockholm syndrome first, before going ahead with brainwashing techniques.

Clearly study of psychology is very useful in a slavery ownership relationship. all depend on what you want to achieve with your slave.

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Post #: 71

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 10:14:24 PM

MasterofSteel

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline

quote:

I love all things psychological. Stockholm syndrome/MK Ultra in respect to BDSM fascinates me. You can by very definition make someone believe what you want them to. If you said, slave cut off your arm. With the right manipulation you can lead them to believe their arm is foreign and needs to be cut off. It will take time to do, but it is possible.

I can not find any studies that support your theory, and what just immediately comes to mind is that you should use LSD or create a scene to get some to amputate their own limbs.

If you are doing a scene where the subject is chained and put a saw next to the subject, and set fire around the subject, so the subject think it will die, then there is a good chance that the subject will saw its own arm off.

With LSD you create artificial insanity, and can basically create the reality you want for the subject.

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Post #: 72

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 10:31:00 PM

MasterofSteel

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Joined: 8/5/2013
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quote:

1. If Jeff isn't adequately informed about something and makes an incorrect pronouncement, while Carol is fully informed and realizes that Jeff is in error, I do not believe there are circumstances under which Carol's reality will alter itself and she will believe her data is wrong merely because of what Jeff has said. The only way I think this is possible is for Jeff to have a history with Carol of being correct 100% of the time, even in the face of Carol having conflicting evidence which ultimately proved to be unfounded. But that occurs out of the experience of Jeff being right all the time and has nothing to do with Jeff right because Jeff is her Master.

2. If Jeff said it was proper to show up at funeral butt nekkid singing "Oh What a Beautiful Morning", once again we'd have to do somehow undo everything Carol has learned about what is proper and what is not, and have what Jeff says be proper because.... she knows that Jeff is right. Actually this seems like a subset of "Jeff is right".

3. Jeff likes seafood and thinks seafood is good. Carol is allergic to seafood and is in serious trouble if she consumes any and doesn't have an epi pen. I just cannot see the circumstances under which Carol would believe that seafood is good. Or if we're talking about goodness with respect to ethics, again we'd have to somehow undo Carol's lifelong experiences and re-educate her if you will

Of course you can, with the right brainwashing convince others that what you do is right, a very good exsampel is the second world war, with German propaganda that convinced an entire nation on what they did was right and morally right.

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Post #: 73

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 10:46:22 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

I'm more of an ego guy: reduce their's, purify mine.

If their's is subsumed, and mine is strengthened in a healthy, relationship-minded way, we're sorta drifting into IE-land without all the complications listed by the nice person above.

And it's a win/win. If their ego is lessened and mine is cleansed, we're good to go no matter how things shake out.

I have a problem with someone who needs their partner to feel reduced so they can feel stronger.

I prefer men who want a partner with a healthy ego.

If you only feel strong when someone is, you are the weak one.

(in reply to Domnotlooking)

Post #: 74

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 10:53:23 PM

MasterofSteel

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/5/2013
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quote:

To me, a TPE is different than IE because I've been able to walk away from a TPE relationship. I retain enough of my sense of self that if the relationship is no longer healthy for me, I can pack my bags and walk away. I couldn't walk away from an IE. Also, when the IE ended, it was much more mentally (rather than just emotionally) devestating. It was like having to learn how to live as an adult all over again. For me anyway.

We are very far from agree on what is Total Power Exchanges if a slave all of a sudden decided to stop being a slave, then I will punish her and put her in her cage until she again learned her place as a slave, I see no walking away in a TPE relationship, the terms of slavery is agree before beginning of the slavery, and stays that way.

If you can walk out of a Total Power Exchanges relationship when you want, then it's not a TPE relationship.

_____________________________

Visit my website for more info about me http://herrex.wix.com/masterofsteel Looking for slave girl to real life slavery.

(in reply to deliriuminabox)

Post #: 75

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 11:12:39 PM

MasterofSteel

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline

quote:

When I enter into a TPE/IE relationship with a sub. It's to get the complete best out of them. Lets say they are a smoker, they just can't quit. Within weeks they do. Or if they are 50lbs over weight. Within weeks, they drop down to their ideal weight.

I agree with some of the way, a slave must be trained to please her owner, and not the other way aroundso on that we can agree on. But to believe that it is possible to get a 25 kg overweight slave lose that weight in a few weeks, it is a very unrealistic goal setting

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Post #: 76

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/13/2013 11:21:32 PM

MasterofSteel

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline

quote:

I have a problem with someone who needs their partner to feel reduced so they can feel stronger.

So how do you feel if your partner needs to be reduced? Now you should not believe this is a oneway street, because it is not

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Post #: 77

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:02:00 AM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Aries.... I think there is a key point that I haven't expressed. That is the identity factor. We all have a self identity of sorts. Some have a stronger ones than others. However, I believe that as a relationship we create an identity that we are a part of. We are all focused on putting the relationship identity first. As a Master and one with complete authority in this relationship identity. My will is the one with the hand on the wheel that steers us. Since its my will that guides this relationship they are focused and mindful to express my will in everything they do. So it is not so much an exaggeration or even an idea. It's how we live our relationship.

Now keep in mind. I am not saying this is all about me. Many I find speak about these relationships like it is about the D type. For me I seek an optimal relationship and my tag line very clear on what an optimal relationship is to me. It's not about me... It's about us!

It's a very interesting topic. And I hope you family continues going (and growing!) strong.
I believe I read somewhere you were introducing a third girl into the mix. All the best!

_____________________________

530 DAYS

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Post #: 78

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:45:25 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterofSteel
It's just simple brainwashing, the technique is used by cults and sects all over the world

edited to restate
I leave discussions of brainwashing to those who believe in such things.

quote:

Original Aries:
I'm not sure if you've got me right or not haha, was commanding your wife to change her self-image, meant to be taken as something you literally said? Because yer, I don't see that working...

I don't know what to tell you... it "worked" for us. But not in that hyperbolic way that BDSM people tend to conceptualize such things. The world of external commands is very boolean as Yoda told us. The world inside someone's mind is quite a bit more nuanced, complex, and just plain squirrely and so success is never absolute.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/14/2013 7:53:09 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to MasterofSteel)

Post #: 79

RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:55:57 AM

ARIES83

Posts: 3648
Status: offline

quote:

JeffBC:
Aries: I don't know what to tell you, it was effective for us.

Stop sending me mixed messages!

quote:

JeffBC:
me commanding Carol to change her self-image to that of "owned property" rather than "wife".
Interestingly, I failed at that.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 8/14/2013 7:56:17 AM >

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530 DAYS

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Post #: 80

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