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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 9:13:22 PM   
VanillaKinkTwist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
I absolutely adore TPE/IE. It's at the core of any relationship I do. I forget the poster who said it, that sane people wouldnt ask another to cut off their arm. He is exactly right.

Just for the record, I'd expect Carol to obey that command. There are, in fact, sane situations in which that would be the right command and if I gave the command I'd hope Carol had the trust required to execute it. In real life, of course, such situations are very rare and the reasoning behind the command would almost certainly be obvious to her. In my best ability to ACTUALLY look at commands like that they are the easy ones.

quote:

Here is the analogy people know. guns dont kill people, people kill people. The same is said for TPE/IE, you can use it to better your relationship or you can use it to seriously screw up a sub.

Yeah, that. :)


True. There could be such a situation in which amputating your arm is the correct response. Rare but possible. I stand corrected. ... And the person who first posted that is a she.. :p ;)

When I think of the definitions of IE here...whoever said they are damned scary... I agree. They are totally terrifying if you think of all that could go wrong (which I often do) and yet IE is a thrilling and desired experience if thought of and executed in the right way. Sort of a two bodies, one mind thing.

1. Are you in an IE relationship?

No.

2. Do you desire to be in an IE relationship?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. To that effect I will say that I desire to be able to experience IE at least once even if it turns out not to be for me for the long term.

3. Is there a difference between IE and other authority based relationships?
Yes because while IE is a type of authority based relationship it is not the only type of authority based relationship. If I screwed up the question I will fix it later but I am typing from my phone so I can't write a reply and see the original post at the same time.

Edit:
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
2) What separates an IE dynamic from other authority dynamics?

From the definition used, TPE may also be IE but it doesn't have to be. What separates an IE dynamic from others is the level of mental control.

< Message edited by VanillaKinkTwist -- 8/10/2013 10:00:08 PM >


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/10/2013 11:33:14 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

quote:

IE (version 1): When the slave actually sees herself as owned property deep in her own self image and similarly for the master. In other words, we have progressed beyond "agreements" here to a more binding form of hierarchy. Note that there is no implication here about any particular span of control. This is all about internal self-image which is very binding but undefined as to the specifics.

later I moved the bar to my current definition

IE (version 2): When the control wielded by the master works on her mind as well as her body (eg: internally). In our relationship that is encapsulated in this:

What Jeff thinks is right, IS right.
What Jeff thinks is proper, IS proper.
What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.

In other words, when my thoughts can overwrite hers. The phrase, "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it" would fail my IE test. This also covers the earlier definition because If I think it's right that she is property then ... well ... it IS right in her eyes... or she fails the IE test.


I don't believe IE, the way you've described it above, exists.

1. If Jeff isn't adequately informed about something and makes an incorrect pronouncement, while Carol is fully informed and realizes that Jeff is in error, I do not believe there are circumstances under which Carol's reality will alter itself and she will believe her data is wrong merely because of what Jeff has said. The only way I think this is possible is for Jeff to have a history with Carol of being correct 100% of the time, even in the face of Carol having conflicting evidence which ultimately proved to be unfounded. But that occurs out of the experience of Jeff being right all the time and has nothing to do with Jeff right because Jeff is her Master.


2. If Jeff said it was proper to show up at funeral butt nekkid singing "Oh What a Beautiful Morning", once again we'd have to do somehow undo everything Carol has learned about what is proper and what is not, and have what Jeff says be proper because.... she knows that Jeff is right. Actually this seems like a subset of "Jeff is right".

3. Jeff likes seafood and thinks seafood is good. Carol is allergic to seafood and is in serious trouble if she consumes any and doesn't have an epi pen. I just cannot see the circumstances under which Carol would believe that seafood is good. Or if we're talking about goodness with respect to ethics, again we'd have to somehow undo Carol's lifelong experiences and re-educate her if you will.

Jeff, I think I have to question your definition of IE. Perhaps it's as simple as a total comfort with the hierarchy and the submissive not fearing their own dissenting opinion, but knowing deep down beforehand that their opinion, even when correct might not count for squat and that's ok with them. As long as they know when to voice it and when not, all is good. Perhaps the IE is about just being comfortable with the fact that the dominant is in charge.. no matter what and it feels right and it's natural. It become so natural and second nature that it's hardly noteworthy.

you got me thinking here :)



Eh, but what healthy reasonable person would submit to the kind of person you're describing - someone that wants you to go to a funeral naked or that thinks that risking a deadly allergic reaction is a "good" their partner should subscribe to? I think if you're an emotionally healthy person seeing another emotionally healthy person, someone that's genuinely looking out for your well-being and knows you well enough to allow them to do that, and you both really want the same kind of relationship, you're not so likely to have those problems.

As far as I've seen in life, problems (in any relationship) come when you have emotionally unhealthy people acting without regard to (or expressly contrary to) their partner's best interest. I know that some "dominants" cultivate relationships with an extreme level of power imbalance because they're fucked up and want someone that will enable them, an easy victim, and I think the emotional/physical/financial/etc consequences of giving up that kind of control to that kind of person can be pretty serious. So it's something that you've got to be real careful about. But I don't think it's inherantly impossible or unhealthy.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 12:37:17 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
Eh, but what healthy reasonable person would submit to the kind of person you're describing - someone that wants you to go to a funeral naked or that thinks that risking a deadly allergic reaction is a "good" their partner should subscribe to? I think if you're an emotionally healthy person seeing another emotionally healthy person, someone that's genuinely looking out for your well-being and knows you well enough to allow them to do that, and you both really want the same kind of relationship, you're not so likely to have those problems.

Yeah, pretty much that. I had all these same "what if" fears when I was pondering this path for Carol and I. I had a longer answer typed up. But instead I think I just want to quote agirl. This was from a thread some time ago basically asking, "Would you strip in a public restaurant if your master commanded it?" She said "Yes" and got roasted for it. Her answer was perfect.

"Happily, I didn't give myself to an asshole so the bills get paid and the children get fed even if I do obey."

I think that pretty much sums it up. Her reasoning for "Yes" was simply that she trusted him above the evidence of her own senses. I admired that and used it as a role model for Carol.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/11/2013 12:38:07 AM >


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 3:53:54 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

What separates an IE dynamic from others is the level of mental control.


All consensual power dynamics have a high level of mental control. *I* would restate that as 'What separates an IE dynamic from others is the level of emotional control. You don't have to *just* be inside someone's head, but their heart too -- in order to establish IE.

This is JMO

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 6:23:57 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

You'd be wrong about that, at least as far as behavioral output goes.

It's been well documented that people will conform to what they factually know to be incorrect data under the pressure of a group conforming to that same wrong data.

Considering how easy it is to get people to act on what they know to be incorrect data from little to no peer pressure from a group of absolute strangers, it isn't that hard to see how IE with a person capable and long standing record of being in charge could do the same with ease.


I'm very familiar with that (in fact my ex was one of the "stooges" in one of those studies back in the 70's). But conforming verbally is not indicative of a change in belief. In fact, those studies are now considered unethical because of the trauma they caused the subjects. Many of the subjects would leave those trials in tears. They couldn't withstand the pressure, but they knew what they saw. They did not come out of there believing they saw a circle when looking at a triangle. They came out of there realizing that they couldn't say "triangle" when the others were so convinced that the shape on the screen was a circle.

Verbal behavior and belief don't always coincide. A classic example: it's easier to say what someone wants to hear.

quote:


That's exactly the point, in order to achieve a state of mind in which "what Jeff thinks is proper is proper" Carol would have to unlearn using her own standards, or the standards people in her past have taught her to operate under.


But I think the whole point about IE is that one doesn't have to train out old norms, but rather that the there is an omnipotent quality attributed to the master so that whatever Master/Mistress says, is so. It is impossible to conceive of the D as being incorrect. Two plus two is now five. Seriously?

You can get someone to respond "as if" the D would never err... but to believe it? Nope, just don't see that happening.

D: The invitation you sent out says dinner is at 6 pm.
S: yes (if he says so, it must be so)
D: oops.. I meant to say 6:30.
S: yes (if he says so, it must be so)

Now.. did the slave put 6 or 6:30 on the invitation?

I can only believe the existence of IE within the context of the D being charge as simply the default of all things. The s is used to compliance and that has generalized to anything that the D requests. But you'd drive someone insane trying to make them believe that every utterance from the D is right, is proper, is good.

Because everyone is wrong at times. And everytime the D is wrong and the s believed them, it will elicit doubt instead of trust. You can trust that someone will always have your best interests at heart, but I submit it's impossible to trust that someone will always be correct about everything.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 6:27:20 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

Eh, but what healthy reasonable person would submit to the kind of person you're describing - someone that wants you to go to a funeral naked or that thinks that risking a deadly allergic reaction is a "good" their partner should subscribe to? I think if you're an emotionally healthy person seeing another emotionally healthy person, someone that's genuinely looking out for your well-being and knows you well enough to allow them to do that, and you both really want the same kind of relationship, you're not so likely to have those problems.


The point is not whether it's a smart or healthy state to get into, the question (for me) is whether it can done.. according to Jeff's definitions.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 7:45:29 AM   
ARIES83


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I'm not a fan of hypotheticals, but I might throw some definitions of my own into the mix...

Hmm, well my thoughts on the relationship between Internal Enslavement and Total Power Exchange are that... They are different terms... What TPE describes seems to me, pretty self explanatory... TPE could be applied to things like slavery... and... IE can be used to describe, a state, but it also implies some of the mechanisms that can come into play there in some cases.
IE seems to have a bit of ambiguity surrounding it in this discussion so far and I don't think I will be much help in clarifying it...

I would call the term IE, really just a descriptor for a state in which many ideas can come into play, like...

Emotional Dependancy, some aspects of Emotional Attachment, Self Image even possibly the idea of Psychological Bondage.
But I think the most important thing to consider with IE, is that it implies internalisation and the most interesting aspect of that (from my point of view), is Identity and what exactly goes on there when this shift occurs...

I will add that I've never really set about to internally enslave someone before, I'm not a stranger to a lot of the concepts that may be involved with this topic, but as far as getting a woman to the point where her identity is, existing as an expression of my will... Noo.

But I may have to write that on the bucket list, because that does sound interesting.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 9:27:18 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
All consensual power dynamics have a high level of mental control. *I*

Would you care to elaborate on that CP? Because honestly that flies in the face of my experience rather dramatically. In what way do you see "mental control" in all power dynamics.

quote:

would restate that as 'What separates an IE dynamic from others is the level of emotional control. You don't have to *just* be inside someone's head, but their heart too -- in order to establish IE.

*nod* That's why I use the word "visceral" sometimes. I agree. The things I think about when I talk "IE" are quite a few layers down below things like "conscious thought".


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 9:31:50 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
But I think the whole point about IE is that one doesn't have to train out old norms, but rather that the there is an omnipotent quality attributed to the master so that whatever Master/Mistress says, is so. It is impossible to conceive of the D as being incorrect. Two plus two is now five. Seriously?

*nods* I was having a discussion with a friend in the real world about this. Actually, the real world element of that astonishes me because he could watch us in action but he could not "get it". He kept trying to convince me that there was no "magic mind control ray" and I kept trying to explain that nobody was talking about anything magic. I've learned to avoid such debates. So I'm content with "You don't believe it's possible"

quote:

I can only believe the existence of IE within the context of the D being charge as simply the default of all things.

Thanks. This pretty much answers my question on what you think IE is. I'd loosely say, "In your mental constructs IE and TPE are synonymous."


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 9:37:44 AM   
deliriuminabox


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FR~

I don't remember who made the comment about cutting off your arm because you were told to but ever since I read that, I keep thinking about the potential of a zombie apocolpyse. If I got bit by a zombie, I would sure as hell hope to be internally enslaved by someone with the balls to tell me to cut off my own arm to save my life! I don't think I could do it any other way. *ahem*

Sorry. I couldn't resist. Please carry on with the intelligent discussion.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 9:38:29 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
IE, is that it implies internalisation and the most interesting aspect of that (from my point of view), is Identity and what exactly goes on there when this shift occurs...

To make sure I have you right, the corresponding item in our marriage is me commanding Carol to change her self-image to that of "owned property" rather than "wife".

Interestingly, I failed at that. Heh, it took me a while to figure out why but the simple answer is that's a very conceptual thought and Carol is a very experiential woman. She couldn't understand what I wanted. In point of fact, what I wanted doesn't even really exist in her world.

quote:

but as far as getting a woman to the point where her identity is, existing as an expression of my will... Noo.

For the record, perhaps someone, somewhere got to that place but I sure have not. I was given raw material to work with and I shape it as I am able. But there is no question that "as I am able" has limits as does the raw material. Carol's identity is Carol's. She's just comfortable letting me rummage around in it from time to time. There is generally a tendency to go to hyperbole which I try to avoid. I think your statement works as a goal though.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 10:13:13 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

But I think the whole point about IE is that one doesn't have to train out old norms, but rather that the there is an omnipotent quality attributed to the master so that whatever Master/Mistress says, is so. It is impossible to conceive of the D as being incorrect. Two plus two is now five. Seriously?

You can get someone to respond "as if" the D would never err... but to believe it? Nope, just don't see that happening.

D: The invitation you sent out says dinner is at 6 pm.
S: yes (if he says so, it must be so)
D: oops.. I meant to say 6:30.
S: yes (if he says so, it must be so)

Now.. did the slave put 6 or 6:30 on the invitation?

I can only believe the existence of IE within the context of the D being charge as simply the default of all things. The s is used to compliance and that has generalized to anything that the D requests. But you'd drive someone insane trying to make them believe that every utterance from the D is right, is proper, is good.

Because everyone is wrong at times. And everytime the D is wrong and the s believed them, it will elicit doubt instead of trust. You can trust that someone will always have your best interests at heart, but I submit it's impossible to trust that someone will always be correct about everything.


Well, sure. But what you're talking about is just another way the D could be an asshole, and a self-sabatoging one at that. Everybody is human and has incorrect data sometimes, or forgets something, or makes a mistake, and while it's possible to make someone believe you're infalliable for a while (see: cult leaders), I don't think that's a healthy or realistic foundation for a lasting relationship. (Also, who would want their s to not tell them information that they need, like the time when dinner guests are coming over? "Yes" is not a useful or good answer in that situation.)

But to me, the kind of internalization that we're talking about isn't "D is never wrong about anything ever", but "D's judgement is sound and, with good information, their decision is always the correct one". Which is not the same thing at all.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 10:22:11 AM   
getoutnow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: deliriuminabox
I don't remember who made the comment about cutting off your arm because you were told to


Its not just a case for being told to. If there would be such a situation, it would ultimately be the subs choice to go through it.

Let me give you a better less harmful example.

I was with a sub. We were a mix of TPE and IE. She had an aversion to needles and everything pierced. She knew I loved subs who had their tongue pierced. I actually said it was no big deal. However, I inject trickery into all my relationships. Every time we watched porn together, it was always with women who had pierced tongues. She had a friend who had hers done, I always complimented her on it and told my sub that she was really hot.

There were other subliminal messages that I made sure were received by my sub without actually stating that she should get it done. She even asked a few times if she should and I always said no.

After about 9 months, she came home one day with it done. Why? She said it was another way of pleasing me and being closer to my image of beauty. She wanted to be all that she could be for me and also that she could serve in other ways from then on in.

The human mind is a fascinating thing. With enough work and with the skilled Dom, you can create any sort of relationship you desire. It's also a very dangerous skill to have.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 10:48:14 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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In order to really control someone's body, you have to have their mind. The brain is the biggest and most expressive sexual instrument, is it not?

This is why lw endures pain for Kana. She doesn't like pain, physically she's not there, but she loves the power and control. And that is a mental control being experienced as physical.

So experiencing pain makes her hot, even though she doesn't like pain, per se. She does, however, like experiencing pain for HIM. Mental control and IE are so closely intertwined.

And yes, I totally agree that IE requires someone responding to you in a primal or visceral way -- their 'snake mind' which is so deep in the unconscious. Which is why it's so hard to break away from an IE relationship.



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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 10:51:43 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
The human mind is a fascinating thing. With enough work and with the skilled Dom, you can create any sort of relationship you desire. It's also a very dangerous skill to have.

That whole story makes me shiver and say "ewwwwwwwwwww". I do agree though that being good at manipulation is a dangerous skill to have as your own post clearly demonstrates. After such treachery and deceit this woman trusted you? Did she ever find out? For myself anyway I choose paths of honor and integrity. I'd like to believe they are more effective but that might be wishful thinking.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 12:52:28 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

I can only believe the existence of IE within the context of the D being charge as simply the default of all things. The s is used to compliance and that has generalized to anything that the D requests. But you'd drive someone insane trying to make them believe that every utterance from the D is right, is proper, is good.

Because everyone is wrong at times. And everytime the D is wrong and the s believed them, it will elicit doubt instead of trust. You can trust that someone will always have your best interests at heart, but I submit it's impossible to trust that someone will always be correct about everything.


You're operating from false premises. The D doesn't need to be correct all the times, all he needs is to be right more often than the s type would have been in the areas where he actually commands her instead of drawing on her talents and following what she thinks is right.

Lets say that Jeff (sorry for using you as an example, but it's easier than just typing D and s all the time Jeff) is great at managing money, numbers and planning ahead on a macro scale.
He's better at all those things than Carol is.
Let's say that Carol is great at cooking, driving, and planning ahead on micro scale.
She's better at all those things than Jeff is.
They're both excellent at social skills and reading people.

Jeff controls Carols mind, to the point that 'what Jeff X is X', so the daily operation of things would look something like this (if we assume Jeff is a sensible human being):

Carol drives everywhere, but has a standing order to let Jeff know when she's fatigued, or otherwise unable to drive at the best of her capabilities.
Carol cooks, and when Jeff sees her make what he thinks is a mistake while baking (getting salt instead of sugar for instance) he'll ask her "did you mean to get that salt" instead of telling her she's wrong.
Carol plans the household on a micro scale (planning groceries runs, managing the household supply and pantry, managing when and how to clean the house) with little or no input or interference from Jeff, except to cross reference with each other on budget and so on. If one day Jeff wants to throw off the entire schedule cause he wants to do X instead that day, he'll ask Carol what she had planned for that day, and the coming days, to evaluate if him throwing off her schedule will cause unwanted ripples in the long run that lead to undesirable outcomes.
Carol trusts Jeff to take care of the money, and what he says on that she accepts as a fact.
Carol trusts Jeff to plan on a macro scale, and what he says on that she accepts as fact.
When in a social situation, where reading people is important, they collaborate, by Jeff asking Carol's opinion, and after gathering all the available data, making a call.

Now look at that for a moment, and think about it.

Every single point where Jeff knows Carol is better than him, he won't just go in an assume that he can overrule her, because he knows that she is more likely to be right about the finer details than he is. Instead, he draws on her talents, and uses them to his advantage, so that, by doing so, Carol and Jeff as a team are less likely to be wrong than they would have been as individuals.
On every single point Carol knows Jeff is better than her at it, she trusts him to make the right call, because she knows that the likelihood of him being wrong is smaller than the likelihood of her being wrong. If she has a question she asks it, but if he insists he's right, she doesn't push the issue, because statistically she knows that it's more probable that he's right in that area, than that she is right.
By doing so, Carol and Jeff as a team are less likely to be wrong than they would have been as individuals.

Mix in the fact that Jeff is good at managing people, and Carol doesn't like to lead, and now you easily have a scenario in which "what Jeff X is X" IS the best possible outcome for them as a couple, because despite the fact that Jeff can be wrong, because of him drawing on the strengths of both of them, they as a couple are less likely to be wrong when working under the preset than "what Jeff X is X" than if they were not working under that preset.

Jeff doesn't need to be right 100% of the time for this to work... all he needs it for them as a couple to have a higher success rate at being right if Carol obeys him, than they would as two individuals on equal footing.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/11/2013 12:54:10 PM >


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 1:13:52 PM   
littlewonder


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Here's the thing. I know Master isn't always correct but he is the majority of the time...more often than not. But even if I feel he's wrong about something I still do it. Why? Because I trust him to know better than me and I trust him that if it is wrong, he will fix it if he can. If he can't then I just trump it up to a mistake and "oh well, that's life"...yes, even if that means some kind of major damage. Accidents happen. Shit happens. The same thing could have happened if we went with my ideas. I don't expect him to read my mind. I don't expect him to always be right. I expect him to be human and own his part and to him, his part is all of me.



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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 3:09:32 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Here's the thing. I know Master isn't always correct but he is the majority of the time...more often than not. But even if I feel he's wrong about something I still do it. Why? Because I trust him to know better than me and I trust him that if it is wrong, he will fix it if he can. If he can't then I just trump it up to a mistake and "oh well, that's life"...yes, even if that means some kind of major damage. Accidents happen. Shit happens. The same thing could have happened if we went with my ideas. I don't expect him to read my mind. I don't expect him to always be right. I expect him to be human and own his part and to him, his part is all of me.






This makes sense to me. He is not right all the time. What he thinks is proper, is not necessarily always proper. But.. kana has more than enough credibility with mouse for her to reflexively/unquestioningly comply and to concede... but not necessarily always concur.

Odds are for you, Kana is right, and what Kana says is proper is proper, and what Kana says is good is good. Odds are. That is very different from accepting these as a fait accompli.. and it seems to me that others here operate on the assumption the slave doesn't have room in their head for the possiblity of the D being wrong, hence IE.

In my IE, there's an undercurrent of reflexive compliance, but there is no assumption that a belief or pronouncement of mine is a priori correct 100% of the time.



_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 3:13:56 PM   
getoutnow


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
That whole story makes me shiver and say "ewwwwwwwwwww". I do agree though that being good at manipulation is a dangerous skill to have as your own post clearly demonstrates. After such treachery and deceit this woman trusted you? Did she ever find out? For myself anyway I choose paths of honor and integrity. I'd like to believe they are more effective but that might be wishful thinking.


Of course she knew. She knew exactly what I was doing from Day 1. The subs that I take are in professional careers and with degrees. They aren't stupid.

I've had a lot of subs tell me blatantly that THEY want me in their mind. They want their mind twisted to my will and to be in the state where they will do anything for me.

I don't know what it is with you trying to say you choose paths of honor and what not. Who cares if what you have with carol works or not. You aren't the poster boy/couple for the right way in the lifestyle. Stop acting like you are. All your postings have this undertone. Cut it out.

< Message edited by getoutnow -- 8/11/2013 3:14:18 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/11/2013 4:13:36 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


By doing so, Carol and Jeff as a team are less likely to be wrong than they would have been as individuals.

...all he needs it for them as a couple to have a higher success rate at being right if Carol obeys him, than they would as two individuals on equal footing.


I love these lines; it is definitely what we try to achieve in our life and with the addition of Danielle to our family we are even more likely to be right. Love it

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 60
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