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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:07:18 AM   
JeffBC


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Status: offline 		ROFL... I actually almost answered to that point rather than the one we were discussing.

In the example you mentioned the failure wasn't because such things aren't possible. THe issue was that Carol is SO experiential that she didn't have any mental reference hook to hang the command on. I might as well have been speaking in Swahili to her. It was a communication problem not a D/s, strength, intent, or honor problem.

Even so, I readily acknowledge that internal commands are way less certain than external commands. That's why I don't hold her to the same standards of 100% absolute obedience on the internal stuff. I couldn't measure up to that bar. Nobody I know can. Ergo I don't hold her to it either. I do, however, expect a good-faith effort and that effort pays out more often than not.

Me: I want you see yourself as my owned property.
Her: What does that look like.
Me: Uh.... it doesn't LOOK like anything. It's just like that pencil over there. I own it.
Her: What does the pencil feel like?
Me: Uh.....

That ought to give you a glimpse into why that one failed.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:19:00 AM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		Thats pretty much how I imagine it playing out with most people.


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:52:57 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
Thats pretty much how I imagine it playing out with most people.

Huh. That's interesting. I wonder if I'm just way more conceptual than most? The flip side of that same command for me wasn't that hard. I wanted to see myself as Carol's owner. Sure, it took maybe a year of work but I got there.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 1:21:43 PM   
foundq


Posts: 7
Joined: 8/13/2013
Status: offline 		I'll ask for a bit of tolerance here, as I hope my questions don't come off silly or ignorant. I'm simply having trouble differentiating some of the concepts discussed here from what I'd consider to be a normal master-slave relationship. I have a minor degree of bdsm experience, but I'd actually never heard of the term "Internal Enslavement" before I saw this thread, and so I'm here to hopefully learn something and sate my curiousity.

What you're describing is what all master-slave relationships tend toward, isn't it? Even if they don't begin there?

I think there is an early period during which most slaves either obey out of physical compulsion (I don't want to do it, but I will obey to avoid being whipped) or a desire to maintain their identity (I don't want to do it, but I want to try hard to be this person's slave). Some slaves who haven't been truly owned don't realize they're doing things for those reasons (it seems "real" to them), but those are the two most superficial forms of submission. If you have a relationship with trust and love in it, though, doesn't that naturally evolve into something deeper, into what I'd consider true submission? If nurtured enough, don't relationships eventually arrive at the point where the desires of the master, once known, genuinely and truly become the desires of the slave? At that point, who would even want to disobey? It would be like rebelling against yourself. Then it's no longer even about "making sacrifices" or "tolerating pain," it's just doing doing what you need to do to accomplish what you want to do, and it becomes easy. I don't get where advanced conditioning/training techniques or separate goals beyond the norm in Master-slave relationships come in.

It seems to me like "internal enslavement" is the endpoint in normal master-slave relationships and "external control" (if that's even a term) is what you pass through to get there. Then again, I don't have a huge amount of experience, which is why I'm asking for clarification. I was mostly a scene player in my early 20's, and I've only been in one real master-slave relationship (which I've been in for the last three years, having been collared for one of those). It's very possible I'm simply missing something due to a lack of experience.

On a separate note, you guys make some of this stuff sound so horrible. Some of the words I've seen used in this thread make consensual slavery sound like something terrible that happens to poor, unspecting girls or guys in the dark corners of the world.

I mean, I've had ppl try to fit me into the role of "girlfriend." And I could do it. Conforming to someone's expectations and wants, even outside of the context of BDSM, isn't that hard if you know how to be observant and obedient toward somebody's spoken and unspoken desires. You can even do it without seeming outwardly submissive. But even though they thought I was great, and a few swore up and down that I was "the one," THAT was the lousy experience for me. I honestly found relationships like that confusing, exhausting, and emotionally draining. I could do vanilla, but I could never do it and be happy. BDSM, and especially the master-slave relationship, is what I find liberating. And yeah, I've had those moments. I know there are hard parts. I've been whipped to the point where I couldn't hold my composure and was a sobbing mess. I've had the moments where I spent an hour crying alone because my master had told me I hadn't been doing a good job of obeying him lately, and I couldn't handle that crushing weight. But maybe I want that and need that? Maybe I'm really, really happy that way? After everything that has happened, I still can't help but smile every time he looks at me, and the life I have with him has been the happiest and most free part of my life.

-q

< Message edited by foundq -- 8/14/2013 1:33:24 PM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 1:59:38 PM   
Kana


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quote:

We are very far from agree on what is Total Power Exchanges if a slave all of a sudden decided to stop being a slave, then I will punish her and put her in her cage until she again learned her place as a slave, I see no walking away in a TPE relationship, the terms of slavery is agree before beginning of the slavery, and stays that way.


Errr,no.
Matter of fact, that's the worst possible answer, an epic fail of infinite size.
First, and most importantly, what you are doing is called unlawful detainment and it's a felony. At worst, it's kidnapping and it's a class A drop. Slap her and it's A&B. Beat her with an instrument and it's ADW, and a prosecutor might just slap an attempted with a deadly weapon on ya. And god help you if you have sex, because that's straight up rape.
That's purely the physical consequences. We ain't even discussed the mental/emotional ramifications at all.

Suffice to say that, to my eyes,resorting to such tactics demonstrates failure on his behalf, not hers.
Look, I don't dominate her because I command her (Though I can and do), I dominate her because I'm a man worth serving. The day I have to resort to holding her against her will is the day this stops being fun for me.
She serves because she can't imagine playing any other role in my life. That's where she feels comfort, that's where she feels safe, it gives her a clearly delineated role in life, proper perspective on exactly who and what she is, where she stands in the relationship, it helps define her as a person (Note that I'm segueing into KoM's awesome posts simultaneously).
She doesn't lose identity in serving, she gains it. She isn't lessened, but rather has over the years become more her.More herself, more who and what she was made to be.
Me? I'm just the sculptor chipping away all the loose stone that isn't her essence, freeing her of the blockage that prevents her from being/achieving/110% being/ the awesome person that she is.
That's why she serves.
She serves not out of fear, but out of respect, devotion, fealty, love, loyalty, joy. She serves that the purity of her service may honor me, and in doing so, honor herself.

That's the exchange. She gives all of who and what she is to me, and in turn, I funnel myself back through her via orders, dominion, structure, accountability, love-in other words, i give all of me. When properly done, as KoM has defined, the exchange forms a closed loop, no power is squandered and instead, it grows and feeds upon itself as it does so.
We give of self to the other and in doing so, we both grow.Not just in the relationships, not just within the roles we've defined, but as people, as lovers, as man and woman. The interaction of the TPE has embiggened us.

If I have to hold her against her will, I've already thrown all that stuff away. And I ain't willing to do that.
In fact, the base rule of our relationship is, "The door is always open."
Which is a rule that swings both ways I might add.
She can leave whenever she wants.
(Why would I want her otherwise? WTF am I-That Castro Cleveland cat? I have way too much ego to want to have anything to do with a chick who didn't want to be with me. You're with me cuz u wanna or you ain't there at all. Simple shit)
But then again, so can I.
That's the nuclear bomb in the relationship. I can always jet And I would if I thought it was the right thing to do, no matter how much it hurt. Done it in the past. Am willing to do it in the future (Though really really hope never to have to, as all good partners should). You can bet your bippies she knows it to.

I digress. The point is that good leaders create situations where others want to follow.You don't have to give orders, you have to command, and there's a world of difference between the two.



< Message edited by Kana -- 8/14/2013 2:01:51 PM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 2:20:56 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
quote:

We are very far from agree on what is Total Power Exchanges if a slave all of a sudden decided to stop being a slave, then I will punish her and put her in her cage until she again learned her place as a slave, I see no walking away in a TPE relationship, the terms of slavery is agree before beginning of the slavery, and stays that way.

Errr,no.

I'd have to agree with everything you said. Carol does not play games with me. Ergo, odds approach 100% that if I did what was suggested here I'd be in prison. The legal system really doesn't have much of a sense of humor at all about kidnapping and/or illegal detention.

Aside from that, there's this question of what sort of game am I playing in that situation. Carol has clearly already become unenslaved. Why am I going through the motions of treating her like something she is not?

That whole concept is the world of BDSM... agreements and roles and consent and all that stuff. I prefer to deal in reality. I see anything other than reality as fantasy.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 2:30:52 PM   
JeffBC


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At least to my eye nothing you said was stupid and I pretty much agree with it all. I've always speculated that something M/s-ey is the terminal destination for any couple that wants D/s (outside the bedroom) and where the relationship works over a long period unless, for whatever reasons, that couple wishes to stop short. But there's this whole thing of "Hey, if D/s worked maybe we should do some more of it."

The business about directly commanding Carol's mind as well as her body is, in my experience, much less common. The more common viewpoint looks something like this:

"He can make me do something but he can't make me like it."

_____________________________

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 6:48:56 PM   
foundq


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Status: offline 		To JeffBC and Kana,

Thank you for your most recent posts. I think I feel a little better about this topic now. Some of the other stuff posted by doms in this thread is kinda confusing (and a little depressing) to me. It's hard to distinguish whether those are things they would do/have done in reality or mental constructs they've created of what D/s should be.

"She serves because she can't imagine playing any other role in my life. That's where she feels comfort, that's where she feels safe, it gives her a clearly delineated role in life, proper perspective on exactly who and what she is, where she stands in the relationship, it helps define her as a person (Note that I'm segueing into KoM's awesome posts simultaneously).
She doesn't lose identity in serving, she gains it. She isn't lessened, but rather has over the years become more her.More herself, more who and what she was made to be."
- Kana

That part of what you said sums up my experience almost exactly.

And to JeffBC, I'm wondering if it's really that uncommon. I've never been in the dom role, so maybe I'm just not aware of the full spectrum of types of subs, but I remember when "He can make me do something but he can't make me like it." was my attitude. I wasn't really aware of it then, and I wouldn't have agreed if you told me I was doing it, but it was true. I think it's sometimes hard for subs to identify the source of their submission while they're in a given moment. Looking back, that was just me struggling: slightly against him but mostly against myself. But if a master provides a positive environment, and is firm and constant in the face of that kind of resistance, the struggle eventually grows tiring for the slave and fades away. At that point, you surrender not only your body and actions, but you giver over some piece of your thoughts and emotions. That was the moment of true liberation for me. That's when my REAL relationship with him started, and when I began to experience the true rewards of BDSM. What's funny is that I was never truly aware of the difference before that. Did you go through a similar process with your sub?

I guess I'm really wondering whether it's truly rare in slaves, or whether it's a case of some doms not bothering to get their slaves to that point.

As for locking somebody in a cage when they really want to leave, that sounds a little scary (and illegal). Don't get me wrong. If it's a Master/slave relationship with no stated limits, then I don't think the slave should be able to walk away without warning whenever they want. But that's VERY different from having no option for exit. Let me clarify, as I don't want to sound like I'm condoning something I'm not. Before I met my master, I had a little bit of a dysfunctional past (possibly an understatement), and most of my "relationships" didn't stick. I told my master pretty early on that I had a tendency to run away from relationships that get too emotionally intense. And he told me very directly that if I went dark one day and stopped responding without warning, he would simply come to my place, break down the door, drag me outside, and give me a whipping. And he was telling me the truth. That might sound crazy, but he was getting at a specific point. He wasn't to get to let your relationship be unstable. That certainty was one of the things which enabled me to get to where I am, a point where I'm far happier as a person. But there's an enormous difference between temporarily stopping a slave from panicking or running away in a fit of pique, which I would consider good stewardship of subs who are a little more emotionally volatile, and stopping a slave who is genuinely determined to leave. If I ever came to a considered decision that I wanted to end our relationship, I've always had the option of exit. It just has to be done properly, on his terms.

I also don't understand where all this talk of "eternal slavery" and stuff comes from. That doesn't even make sense to me. Even if we're talking TPE, or any type of relationship where a slave is required to obey all hard commands (those given without the option of negotiation), we're still talking about something which is, at its core, a relationship. As far as I can tell, while you can have people who very much need and want to fill the role of slave to feel emotionally fulfilled, slavery ITSELF is not a state. It's a link between two people which they maintain and pursue every day, not a permanent attribute carved into a slave. Yes, I can't imagine being any other way than the way I am now with my master, but if my relationship with him ended for whatever reason, I wouldn't be able to suddenly feel the same way with another dom.

-q

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:45:07 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

It's a very interesting topic. And I hope you family continues going (and growing!) strong.
I believe I read somewhere you were introducing a third girl into the mix. All the best!


Yes that is correct. Her flowing into the family as been great for everyone. We are very much looking forward to many years to come. Thank you very much for your well wishes.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:49:07 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: foundq
I also don't understand where all this talk of "eternal slavery" and stuff comes from.

It comes from here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: foundq
It's hard to distinguish whether those are things they would do/have done in reality or mental constructs they've created of what D/s should be.


You'll find a great deal of commonality no matter how the relationship is labeled among the couples that are actually making it work over the long-term. It's interesting to note that "eternal slavery" sort of flies in the face of the word "dynamic" which implies change over time. My observation is that much of online BDSM is done in theory and in theory things are pure and pristine and come wrapped up in nice neat little boxes with bows. The real world is somewhat messier :) My advice is that when you are reading posts here make sure you know if the post relates to an actual couple actually doing whatever they say or is it in theory. Profiles for the win :)

Insofar as being depressing, my general observation is that those who make something TPE/Ms/Ie-ish work are very happy. Those who try it and fail are very unhappy. It is a crucible of sorts.

Really, at least to my eye, you're tracking the program quite well.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 7:50:35 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Yes that is correct. Her flowing into the family as been great for everyone. We are very much looking forward to many years to come. Thank you very much for your well wishes.

Ok, that's all happy and shit but isn't there a quota or something on this.. kinda like fishing licenses? :)

_____________________________

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:00:30 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


She doesn't lose identity in serving, she gains it. She isn't lessened, but rather has over the years become more her.More herself, more who and what she was made to be.
Me? I'm just the sculptor chipping away all the loose stone that isn't her essence, freeing her of the blockage that prevents her from being/achieving/110% being/ the awesome person that she is.
That's why she serves.
She serves not out of fear, but out of respect, devotion, fealty, love, loyalty, joy. She serves that the purity of her service may honor me, and in doing so, honor herself.

That's the exchange. She gives all of who and what she is to me, and in turn, I funnel myself back through her via orders, dominion, structure, accountability, love-in other words, i give all of me. When properly done, as KoM has defined, the exchange forms a closed loop, no power is squandered and instead, it grows and feeds upon itself as it does so.
We give of self to the other and in doing so, we both grow.Not just in the relationships, not just within the roles we've defined, but as people, as lovers, as man and woman. The interaction of the TPE has embiggened us.



I almost agree with everything Kana has stated. I quote the above to put out a slight different perspective. It might be point of semantics to some for me it is not. I love the description of what Kana states in the quote above. But I don't see this as power exchange. I see this concept and process as a Power Enhancement Relationship. It's like bringing to molecules together. If its the right molecules and done in the right circumstances it creates a new molecule. A new identity, Essentially it's more than the sum of its parts. It's a multiplication that keeps expanding exponentially.


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:02:58 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I almost agree with everything Kana has stated. I quote the above to put out a slight different perspective. It might be point of semantics to some for me it is not. I love the description of what Kana states in the quote above. But I don't see this as power exchange. I see this concept and process as a Power Enhancement Relationship. It's like bringing to molecules together. If its the right molecules and done in the right circumstances it creates a new molecule. A new identity, Essentially it's more than the sum of its parts. It's a multiplication that keeps expanding exponentially.

Much as I've never liked "power exchange" (I can't figure out what exactly is meant by power and how it's being exchanged) I still get both views and in fact seem them as a part of a complex gestalt. I think it's looking at the same thing, exactly as you said, from a different perspective. Both perspectives are valuable. Honestly, had they called it a "loyalty exchange" that make much more sense to me.


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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:03:10 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Yes that is correct. Her flowing into the family as been great for everyone. We are very much looking forward to many years to come. Thank you very much for your well wishes.

Ok, that's all happy and shit but isn't there a quota or something on this.. kinda like fishing licenses? :)


Mmmm damn I hope not.... But I was never a rule follower anyways ;)

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:12:07 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Me: I want you see yourself as my owned property.
Her: What does that look like.
Me: Uh.... it doesn't LOOK like anything. It's just like that pencil over there. I own it.
Her: What does the pencil feel like?
Me: Uh.....

That ought to give you a glimpse into why that one failed.



ha ha that was good! That's basically how I feel everytime someone asks me what it's like to be a slave. I dunno! It's just who I am. I can't explain it because it's not something I ever deliberately thought about. I didn't wake up one day and say "I wanna be a slave. I want to feel like that". It's just who I am as a person. It's not really a role...it's just my personality and how does one really describe what it feels like to be "you"?

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:21:23 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: foundq
As far as I can tell, while you can have people who very much need and want to fill the role of slave to feel emotionally fulfilled, slavery ITSELF is not a state. It's a link between two people which they maintain and pursue every day, not a permanent attribute carved into a slave. Yes, I can't imagine being any other way than the way I am now with my master, but if my relationship with him ended for whatever reason, I wouldn't be able to suddenly feel the same way with another dom.

-q



For some of us it is a state. If I wasn't with Master I would still be a slave to someone else. It's just my personality. Any man I have ever been with I was his slave, whether he knew it or not, whether he ever heard of bdsm or not. It's how I operate on a 24/7 basis as my core being, my personality.

That's not to say I don't have a deep bonding with Master. I do. I love him very much and why I do more for him than anyone else I have ever been with and why he is able to do the things he does to and for me, but I also know who I am as a person and that person is a slave mentality. That slave mentality just might not be quite as in sync with someone else. I don't know because I can't see the future and have no desire to. But He also isn't the first man I've ever been with or been in love with before.

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:27:35 PM   
AAkasha


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So much work, emotional thought and effort goes into defining the power structure of a relationship.

If it works for two people, that is what matters.

Ultimately, who controls the power is the one who has the power to walk away while the other is madly in love. In a long term relationship it's a nice healthy balance based on love, friendship, trust and a healthy sex life. But come on, pull back the drapes of sexual fantasy for a moment.

If a relationship goes through a transformation after 15 or 16 years. If Carol loses interest in Jeff (hypothetically) sexually. If communication breaks down. If ANY of the million "stressors" that hit vanilla relationships collapses into BDSM relationships (ours are not immune), the person in power is the person who is the one willing to walk away. That could be the sub.

Unless you are saying the desire to be "owned" by a person you "may have fallen OUT of love with" (it happens - again, BDSM relationships are not immune) is greater than outside influences, acts of god (if you believe in that kind of thing) hormonal shifts in the female body that can completely change sex drive through menopause, tragedies, infidelity, etc.

Vanilla relationships have crises that demand many things be put on "HOLD." I think 'IE" would be one of them. By it's very definition "IE" would not be on the table to be put on hold. But if the slave in the equation woke up one day and said, "I don't love my partner anymore," yet the partner loved her with all his heart, who is the slave?




Akasha

< Message edited by AAkasha -- 8/14/2013 8:29:18 PM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:38:03 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Personally the whole "the one who walks away has the power" is stupid.

It has nothing to do with power and everything to do with responsibility. And responsibility is a human thing, not a Dom/sub/power thing.

Neither holds any kind of power. It just says that one of the people does not wish for the issues to proceed further and realizes they must take responsibility for it for both parties and not just him/herself.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 8/14/2013 8:39:21 PM >

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RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:42:28 PM   
foundq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: foundq
As far as I can tell, while you can have people who very much need and want to fill the role of slave to feel emotionally fulfilled, slavery ITSELF is not a state. It's a link between two people which they maintain and pursue every day, not a permanent attribute carved into a slave. Yes, I can't imagine being any other way than the way I am now with my master, but if my relationship with him ended for whatever reason, I wouldn't be able to suddenly feel the same way with another dom.

-q



For some of us it is a state. If I wasn't with Master I would still be a slave to someone else. It's just my personality. Any man I have ever been with I was his slave, whether he knew it or not, whether he ever heard of bdsm or not. It's how I operate on a 24/7 basis as my core being, my personality.

That's not to say I don't have a deep bonding with Master. I do. I love him very much and why I do more for him than anyone else I have ever been with and why he is able to do the things he does to and for me, but I also know who I am as a person and that person is a slave mentality. That slave mentality just might not be quite as in sync with someone else. I don't know because I can't see the future and have no desire to. But He also isn't the first man I've ever been with or been in love with before.


I guess I understand what you mean, to some extent. I could never be anything but submissive with the men I was with, and while it might change in the future, that part of me doesn't seem to be going anywhere for now. Even with the few who thought our relationship was vanilla, I was always trying to please them, to be what they wanted. I think that's why a lot of them thought I was something special, at least until our relationships spectacularly imploded (I'm sure some of them curse my name now). That's probably also why not getting domination in return was so frustrating to me.

I guess I just think of being a slave as something different. I'm not sure how to explain, but I'll try.

Don't you feel like there's something different when you're owned and collared by someone, and you've truly given in to them? Something beyond simply being obedient and compliant and eager-to-please? Like a connection where their thoughts and feelings are inside you? I'm probably picking the wrong words. For me, in my current relationship, a moment arrived when it all clicked into place in a relatively short period, and I knew that we shared after that was "different," even from the early part of our relationship. I guess that "different" part of it was the thing I meant wasn't a trait and couldn't easily be transplanted.

Does that make any more sense? I know there's no universal truth to BDSM, and since I'm a big weirdo, this could all be me. :P

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Let's talk internal enslavement - 8/14/2013 8:47:38 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I've been wanting to get to this thread, just been so dang busy I haven't had time to dive in. But I cruised through it a bit and want to share some thoughts - some of it may be thinking out loud so to speak, or...thinking while typing...

I was internally enslaved before, by the wrong person for me. So I know of which Chatte speaks - in the wrong hands it can be quite detrimental.

What he thought was right, was right - - until it wasn't.

But it took me a long time to realize it wasn't. Granted, I entered the relationship from an unhealthy place to begin with. But I was at a point with him where I *would* do whatever. He hurt me physically, to the point of needing medical care. It didn't bother me, as he did what he wanted to do, and that was simply the consequence of it. The way I saw it, HE was the one with a partially damaged toy, and he needed to fix it. Or not. He hurt me emotionally, in ways that took years after the relationship to heal. But since I saw myself as his property, I honestly and deeply believed that was his prerogative to do.

I very strongly felt I could not leave. My heart would not let me, even though I eventually came to see how unhealthy he was for me, over all. I did not have the emotional or mental where-with-all to walk away. I figured that was just what my life had come to, and that was that. I became very depressed, but resigned to the conclusion that that was my place. Since I had made him (at his direction, leadership and manipulation) my center. My foundation.

So when he abruptly let me go, because he no longer wanted a damaged toy, I really felt my whole life was coming apart. I had no foundation left.

OK so that was IE gone wrong. You don't want to speak of brain washing, but he *did* do that. I knew he was doing it at the time, and gave in to it. He knew it, too. And I was enslaved to him, through and through.

Today I am in a much different relationship. I doubt that I *could* be internally enslaved again because my journey into the healthy me after my last relationship brought me to a level of self awareness that nobody, not even him, knows me better than I know me. There are things I know are emotionally unhealthy for me, that only four years into it, he is still discovering. So if I say something he wants is going to be bad for me, it's not lip service or fear, it's a very secure knowledge about myself that yes, it is going to be harmful to me.

For us...what WE know is right, is right. It's a combined knowledge. It's listening and trusting and hearing and raw honesty. Twice in our relationship I have dug my heels in hard, saying there was no fucking way I can go "there" (the place he wanted me to go), and let me tell you, there was friction between us then, and it was hard as hell to say no I can't do that, but I had to say it, to stay true to myself. Even if that meant leaving the relationship.

Together we know what is best. And we're ok with that. It's a combined knowledge and understanding. Blended wisdom and intuition. And it works for us. He still leads, and he considers my input, and he decides from there.

Now. Am I so enslaved to him I could not leave? To my own surprise I have, at times, considered bending to his will when I knew it would be compromising who I was. Given my history, that concerned me, very much. The result was that I told him I would do it, but it felt very much like a self compromise. The result of that was that he chose a different route to get there, and it worked out.

But as for whether I'm so enslaved I could not leave? I'd like to say I could. But honestly these days I don't see the point in contemplating it. I am happy beyond imagination, and I trust him and his love, and I know without a doubt (because of our history) that any hurdle in the road will be worked through. I know I still have my own identity, and that if he decided to go away I'd recover and be just fine. But there's something in me that still hangs onto *me*, which I think prevents me from IE or from ever being able to be so enslaved.

I say this now, of course. Ask me in a few months when we've merged households.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 100
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