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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/15/2013 8:37:25 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Not all of them but a damn sight more of them than in your post where you said.

"different in kind from referring to Muslims who haven't killed anybody as "bloodthirsty murdering terrorists". "

I think the analogy is good enough to hold. Ken refers to pro-lifers as "forced birthers," and slanders "forced birthers" as bloodthirsty murdering terrorists. What proportion of the 45% of Amercians who are pro-life aid and abet murder?

K.

But you see, semantics plays a role here. A birther is one who steadfastly maintains a right to be born but NOT a right to life...once one is. Too many wish for laws that would have the state compel women to bring all births to term. Funny how the 'conservatives' don't see far too much state control in that.

Because of those beliefs, violation of the laws of the land is not justified in threatening those who exercise other laws they seek to change. To take that on frees us from the traditional restraint in just how we choose to describe them.

I seem to recall that Texas was wanting to opt out of Obamacare by using language that said in part "We feel that all health care decisions should be between a patient and doctor without government interference"
Someone pointed out that the statement was in agreement with the Pro Choice folks and it was quickly removed.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/15/2013 9:19:40 AM   
DomKen


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"Pro life" implies an opposition to anything that ends life. Very few forced birthers actually reach that level. Beyond the ones who support or engage in violence meant to kill there are very few of their organizations which also oppose capital punishment.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/15/2013 10:35:57 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think the analogy is good enough to hold. Ken refers to pro-lifers as "forced birthers," and slanders "forced birthers" as bloodthirsty murdering terrorists. What proportion of the 45% of Amercians who are pro-life aid and abet murder?

I'm with you. This is no different than "Obummer" or "Mittens" or "Obamacare". It's an attempt to win a debate with spin. I'm unimpressed. While I am pro-choice I don't need vast swaths of empathy to understand the pro-life mindset. We're talking about at least a potential human life here. Some good scrutiny on questions of ending that potential seem warranted. I just wish it was possible to have such discussions but it seldom is. Like most political debates it gets swept up in dogma. I become a murderer and you become a "forced birther".

The conversation I'd like to have with a pro-life person is "and then what?" If I agree that the woman must carry to term what are we doing with these unwanted children? The system, as it stands, isn't an answer in my mind. I'd find a lot more sympathy for the pro-life viewpoint if it also came attached with answers which would necessarily start with enhancing the social safety net. All too typically though, the same groups that want to bring this life into the world want to doom it do a living hell. I'd rather kill it.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/15/2013 11:47:20 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I'd find a lot more sympathy for the pro-life viewpoint if it also came attached with answers which would necessarily start with enhancing the social safety net. All too typically though, the same groups that want to bring this life into the world want to doom it do a living hell. I'd rather kill it.

This.
Good luck getting a reply from any of the anti-choicers in this thread though.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/15/2013 11:51:50 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think the analogy is good enough to hold. Ken refers to pro-lifers as "forced birthers," and slanders "forced birthers" as bloodthirsty murdering terrorists. What proportion of the 45% of Amercians who are pro-life aid and abet murder?


The Venn diagram boggles the mind. Capital Punishment overlaps, fuck the social safety net not my tax dollars overlaps, all for corporations at any cost overlaps, Iraq for freedom overlaps.


We are into the puce color of the diagram here.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/15/2013 11:52:22 AM >

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 5:03:55 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You asked for forced birth groups that advocate violence and insurrection. You were given them. You then demanded to know what they had done. So yet more information was given to you. Now you come out with a non sequitur. I'll just take that as an admission that you were wrong when you claimed forced birth groups were not violent.

You're making shit up again. I asked what pro-life groups advocated murder and engaged in armed insurrection. Aside from flakes, I know of no group actively engaged in carrying out murders. The latest headline I could find involving The Army of God was from 1997. And I asked how big they were, what their budgets were. But you've posted nothing, let alone anything that would reflect support by nearly half the population of the United States. Which leads me to what I actually claimed, as opposed to the lie in your post, which was that slandering 45% of the American population as "bloodthirsty murdering terrorists" is hateful nonsense.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 5:13:18 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

"Pro life" implies an opposition to anything that ends life. Very few forced birthers actually reach that level. Beyond the ones who support or engage in violence meant to kill there are very few of their organizations which also oppose capital punishment.

In the context in which the term is used, "pro-life" denotes opposition to abortion, i.e., the taking of innocent life. Dragging it into a broader context implies that you have nothing to offer (besides name-calling, of course) except word games.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 5:14:22 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Who causes all the violence associated with women's health clinics? The forced birth movement.
Has this specific clinic known violence because of forced birthers? 1 murder, 1 attempted murder, 1 major arson and numerous lesser crimes.


All in all, what you have is 1 murder. Now, how many abortions have there been?


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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:08:54 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Who causes all the violence associated with women's health clinics? The forced birth movement.
Has this specific clinic known violence because of forced birthers? 1 murder, 1 attempted murder, 1 major arson and numerous lesser crimes.


All in all, what you have is 1 murder. Now, how many abortions have there been?


That's only for that one clinic.

Remember Eric Rudolph, the Atlanta Olympic bomber?

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:20:30 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Who causes all the violence associated with women's health clinics? The forced birth movement.
Has this specific clinic known violence because of forced birthers? 1 murder, 1 attempted murder, 1 major arson and numerous lesser crimes.


All in all, what you have is 1 murder. Now, how many abortions have there been?


That's only for that one clinic.

Remember Eric Rudolph, the Atlanta Olympic bomber?



Okay. So Rudolph equaled up the tally did he?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:23:05 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Abortion is legal
murder isnt


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:32:06 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Abortion is legal
murder isnt


Don't tell that to the people who are sympathetic to terrorists.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:36:35 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I'd find a lot more sympathy for the pro-life viewpoint if it also came attached with answers which would necessarily start with enhancing the social safety net. All too typically though, the same groups that want to bring this life into the world want to doom it do a living hell.

This brings to mind a powerful bit of Marge Piercy's poem Right to Life:

You value children so dearly
that none ever go hungry, none weep
with no one to tend them when mothers
work, none lack fresh fruit,
none chew lead or cough to death and your
orphanages are empty. Every noon the best
restaurants serve poor children steaks.

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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:38:15 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So if someone in Afghanistan is only making and burying an IED, he isn't a bloodthirsty murdering terrorist because he hasn't succeeded yet?

Maybe you should change that to "hasn't attempted or contributed to the effort to kill someone"


Defending one's country from invaders is considered terrorism????who knew?

Most IEDs and terrorist attacks in Afghanistan are designed to kill their own countrymen.


Cite please.
quote:


I daresay that after we leave that forsaken place, they won't magically stop.


What evidence is there that we will leave?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:40:47 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Quite aside from the fact that most of the Taliban are Pakistanis rather than Afghans: they're no more "defending their country" than the fucking coalition.

How do we know most of the taliban ae pakistnis?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:42:29 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So if someone in Afghanistan is only making and burying an IED, he isn't a bloodthirsty murdering terrorist because he hasn't succeeded yet?

Maybe you should change that to "hasn't attempted or contributed to the effort to kill someone"


Defending one's country from invaders is considered terrorism????who knew?

Most IEDs and terrorist attacks in Afghanistan are designed to kill their own countrymen.


Cite please.
quote:


I daresay that after we leave that forsaken place, they won't magically stop.


What evidence is there that we will leave?


According to the UN, the Taliban kills more civilians than coalition forces with IED's and the UN isn't exactly our friend seeing as who is on the security council. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/10/21/taliban-bombs-afghan-deaths/1647133/

As for your second question, the US won't be around forever. Therefore, by definition, we must leave some time.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:45:55 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think the analogy is good enough to hold. Ken refers to pro-lifers as "forced birthers," and slanders "forced birthers" as bloodthirsty murdering terrorists. What proportion of the 45% of Amercians who are pro-life aid and abet murder?

I'm with you. This is no different than "Obummer" or "Mittens" or "Obamacare". It's an attempt to win a debate with spin. I'm unimpressed. While I am pro-choice I don't need vast swaths of empathy to understand the pro-life mindset.


Correct me if I misunderstand but isn't the pro life mindset that their imaginary friend does not approve and therefore everyone must abide by the decissions of their imaginary friend?
quote:


We're talking about at least a potential human life here. Some good scrutiny on questions of ending that potential seem warranted.


Why? Do you lso wish to scru;tinize masturbation as it too is "at lest potential human ....???

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:54:19 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

In the context in which the term is used, "pro-life" denotes opposition to abortion, i.e., the taking of innocent life.

K.[/font][/size]


If it were "the taking of innocent life" Then it would be murder. So far we don't have a lot of real doctors saying that a fetus is a human being and that terminating a pregnancy is "the taking of innocent life". What we do have are people who are not doctors and don't even play one on tv, telling me that their imaginary friend told them that he does not approve.
I do not need an imaginary friend to make my choices.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:57:57 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie




All in all, what you have is 1 murder. Now, how many abortions have there been?


Last time I checked murder was illegal...so what is the relationship between an illegal act and a legal one that you and your imaginary friend disaprove of?

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Forced birthers reach for a new low - 8/16/2013 6:58:04 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Quite aside from the fact that most of the Taliban are Pakistanis rather than Afghans: they're no more "defending their country" than the fucking coalition.

How do we know most of the taliban ae pakistnis?

We read the occasional newspaper.


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 60
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