RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (Full Version)

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OsideGirl -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 8:21:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Here's how I see this.......

It's a forum. On a forum, the idea is to discuss various opinions. The idea isn't to just feed folks happy, happy sunshine. That means that people are going to give opinions that others may not like.



This.

I'm another one that doesn't subscribe to labels, though.

One of my personal views is that I think the term consensual slavery is an oxymoron and find using the term slave to describe myself as offensive.

None of the regulars here have told me that I'm wrong. They have presented why they feel it's valid, I accept that they feel it's valid for themselves, but no one questioned my right to call myself what ever I wanted.

What I've found out over time here, is that usually the most unflexible people are the ones that lack experience, are extremely fantasy driven and not in an actual relationship themselves.



AaNiMaLl -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 8:57:44 AM)

Has anyone read the novel Blind Faith by Ben Elton?



Missokyst -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 10:06:24 AM)

I don't care how people do BDSM. I have done things that supposedly could have killed me. I admit I did things (by others standards) the wrong way. And I had fun doing it.



JeffBC -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 10:13:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
What ibringchocolate said...A long time ago, I was a mod on a firearms/shooting board, and what transpired over on that other thread was tame compared to what some of those geezers would do to what they perceived as a 'stupid question' or someone who didn't do things 'their way'. I occasionally peeked in over there to see the fireworks. It wasn't pretty, that much I can say.

ROFL.. and any gamer knows that video game discussion boards make CollarMe look like thoughtful and intelligent discourse. There's a "one true way" debate going on in one of the gamer forums I read that totally blows away anything I've seen here.



WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 10:59:50 AM)

MariaB,

That was a finely crafted response, and right on the mark, IMO. It actually spurred some self-reflection on my part. Although I am open to varying opinons and respect everyone's right to their said opinion, my personality makes it difficult for me to take a passive stance when challenged directly. I am an A-type personality, with dominant tendencies, a natural leader, and have spent my adult life in careers that involve meeting force with superior force. That is not to say that I am a violent person by nature. I'm not. And anyone that knows me would tell you the same. I do, however, have a propensity for violence when necessary and my personality traits make it difficult to walk away from direct confrontation. I practice conflict avoidance / resoltuion right up to the point that it becomes evident that conflict is imminent, and then I change gears and meet force with force.

Your post allowed me to see how at times, in certain settings, this could be a draw back, so it is something that I will reflect on.



WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 11:05:13 AM)

MasterCaneman,

Excellent advice! The problem with advice is that it is only helpful if the user can put it into practice...so I will work on it. LOL!

Thanks for your input!



sexyred1 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 11:16:08 AM)

If you are on a message board and feel prone to violence when challenged, you may have issues that really need work.

I don't believe there is one way to do anything and you always have to remember that every reply will be filtered through the poster's own experience with BDSM, relationships, etc. There is almost no way to reply without doing so.

I try to be objective when I reply to someone but always know that my insights are mine due to what I have experienced, so if it comes off as judgemental, etc. that cannot be helped.

I endeavor to try and reply in a more objective manner if possible.



OsideGirl -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 11:27:45 AM)

There's a whole bunch of thoughts on that one starting with "Sometimes the better part of valor is discretion".

Seriously, I don't care if anyone else thinks I'm submissive. I don't care if anyone else thinks we have a "real" D/s relationship. The only opinions that matter are the two of us. Especially when it comes to the internet.

If the defense is "He started it" and you can't just shrug your shoulders and walk away from someone else's words, it makes me question things. And I'll be honest when I see Dominant men get into pissing matches with other Dominants on the internet, it causes me view them as not really Dominant.



WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 11:41:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Some more thoughts.....

I don't have the exact quote but it goes some thing like for evil to triumph good men do nothing. For me it is one of the more powerful quotes or concepts that I listen to and heard. This quote is not just about speaking upon in the face of evil. Can be as simple as speaking up when you see a friend making a huge mistake in your opinion.


It was Edmund Burke that said, "The only necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing." That quote is very powerful and is used often in the military. I agree with that mindset as well...to a point. I bolded that last sentence fragment for this reason...yes, I think that it is reasonable to speak up if I see my friend making a huge mistake. I even think it is a responsibility to do so, otherwise I wouldn't be much of a friend. But after I point out the mistake, and the potential damage that could happen, and my friend chooses to make the mistake anyways, I have to respect that the fact that he is an adult and thus entitled to not only his opinion or views, but he is also entitled to make mistakes, because at the end of the day, he will face the consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality

Dude, it's the Internet


Another good point. And that is why people feel so liberated to talk to people any way they choose. Because in reality when you walk around speaking disrespectful to people, it will at best earn you some free dental work, and these days maybe worse. I guess not everyone conducts themselves online, as they do in the real world. Shocking!

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

What I've found out over time here, is that usually the most unflexible people are the ones that lack experience, are extremely fantasy driven and not in an actual relationship themselves.


I would take it a step further to say that the most inflexible people are those trying to mask or compensate their own insecurities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AaNiMaLl

Has anyone read the novel Blind Faith by Ben Elton?


I have not. Is there something in the novel that is relevant to the discussion? Please elaborate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I don't care how people do BDSM. I have done things that supposedly could have killed me. I admit I did things (by others standards) the wrong way. And I had fun doing it.


And that is the personal nature of this journey into self exploration! What is bizarre to some, is the ultimate experience to another.




WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 12:00:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

If you are on a message board and feel prone to violence when challenged, you may have issues that really need work.


Perhaps I didn't articulate that clearly enough. I am not prone to violence AT ALL. Especially when online. The internet is full of keyboard tough guys. I said that my own personality and experiences will cause me to meet force with force when I am provoked into doing so. Obviously online, that force would be words, as that is what is available at the time, and it is an appropriate level of force, as that is the force being used against me.

I also went on to say that in hind sight I can see how this could be a drawback in settings other than my normal daily environment, and it is something I will reflect on. The fact that I am open to idea and opinion, and prone to self evaluation, leads me to believe that I have a pretty healthy grasp on myself and reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

And I'll be honest when I see Dominant men get into pissing matches with other Dominants on the internet, it causes me view them as not really Dominant.



Think about that for a moment...A sub needs to give up control, just as a Dominant needs to assert control. That is the symbiotic nature of the D/s dynamic. But what happens when there are two Dominants, each attempting to assert control over the other, because it is in their nature to do so? Well, IMO, hopefully the two Dominants have enough intelligence to communicate their differences, and if nothing else, agree to disagree. A stalemate. But the reality is that when communication breaks down, human beings inherently resort to violence, whatever the level. To say that they are not really Dominant for displaying Dominant traits, is like saying a sub isn't a sub if she gives up control to another.



MariaB -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 12:09:21 PM)

It made me self reflect as well WarMachine904 because like you, taking a passive stance isn't something that comes naturally to me either!. The problem is, on forums such as this, many have the fighting stance of a martial arts black belt, and Ill include myself there!

On-line I'm charming enough to be tolerable until someone intentionally tries to humiliate me, at which point I become confrontational. Its only when I walk away from the computer that I understand the silliness of it all!
In the real world I don't like confrontation. I'd say I'm a fairly diplomatic individual who is confident and assertive. Why then, on-line do I become morose, pessimistic and stubborn about so many things?!?! Perhaps on-line attitudes are infectious ? certainly if you spend too much real time around aggressive, mean people, you risk becoming the same.

Fortunately there are some nice people here too. Those that are always bubbly, happy and bright don't go unnoticed by any of us [;)] they help to balance things out and encourage us to return again and again.






OsideGirl -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 12:10:48 PM)

I'm going to disagree.

IMO: I view a good Dominant as a good leader. That means he should know when force is appropriate and when the better move is to walk away. Trying to assert dominance over a stranger on a forum is futile. It doesn't prove dominance. It doesn't prove strength. It just proves an inability to judge situations. And I will take quiet strength and good judgement over chest thumping aggression. (dominant vs domineering)



KnightofMists -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 12:20:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WarMachine904

, because at the end of the day, he will face the consequences.


Yes.. And another washed his hands of it all as well. As much as people want to wash their hands of it because its not their consequences. The fact remains when the pebble is thrown in the water all in the water will feel its ripples. For some its will be noticeable others not so much. The abuses of others in thee name of this lifestyle affect us all. Absolutely stupid views and theories by individuals that have Never applied their great ideals to a successful level affect us all.

I am jaded, seen way to many follow the oil snake salesman and suffer their consequences. I seen way to many call themselves natural dominant s and all that jazz, but their experience and resume is would be better to be flipping burgers at MacDonalds. Hell recently I know of a person that calling himself a Sexual Educator without any training in educating and I dont see knowing where to stick his dick as sufficient experience or training in in the field of sexuality.

It's hard enough to make these relationships work by reasonable and intelligent people that don't have their egos as their filter to their brains. Lots of close minded in ideals who get alittle knowledge and become damaging to those around them. No I will not wash my hands. I will stick it out and when they suffer the consequences of their choices. I will be around to help and sometimes that help will be as simple I told you so. Ironically, the best lesson I learned since being in this lifestyle is learning to be open minded. This not about it being ok that everyone walks their own path. Being open minded is that when challenged, I sit back and see it from a different point of view. In fact actually look to prove myself wrong. I learned that lesson not because I was left to my own consequences. But because I was challenged to be better than I am. I was told.... I told you so! I was made sure I learned the lesson I needed to learn. We all suffer our consequences... But that does mean we will learn the lessons from them. Sometimes we need a hand with that. I know I do!



WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 12:58:29 PM)

A good point. And I probably should have elaborated my point further. For my friends or someone I care about, I would not wash my hands. I would be there to help them in dealing with the consequences. But in a forum setting, where I am interacting with people that I do not really know, and their personal situations which I am not completely familiar with, all I can do is give my advice. For me, that satisfies my moral obligation. I am not here to save the world.

If your morals dictate that you must go further, I respect your view. But you will find that some will not welcome your gesture, even though it appears to have good intentions.

And so we must agree to disagree. And that is ok, too!



KnightofMists -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:03:36 PM)

You continue to miss the point. But that's ok too



JeffBC -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:16:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Yes.. And another washed his hands of it all as well. As much as people want to wash their hands of it because its not their consequences. The fact remains when the pebble is thrown in the water all in the water will feel its ripples.

Wow... is this that once a year occurrence when I disagree with you?

I gotta go with WarMachine on this one. Anyone who is my friend I respect. Anyone I respect I must cede the authority over their own life to. If I did not do that then they would no longer be my friend because it would mean I had no respect for them. If they were not my friend and nobody I respect then it's unclear to me why I'd be involved at all. Good god... you BDSM folks (and humans in general) do a lot of nasty stuff to each other. I'm not about to start trying to police it all.

That all being said it is certainly possible that someone ignoring my advice might also fall out of respect and therefor out of my friend's circle. It has happened in rare instances. I'm pretty brutal about the pruning & gardening of my social circle.



KnightofMists -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:26:54 PM)

Jeff... There is a difference between trying to force ones will on another as compared to holding to ones view and being their when the cards play out. To often we are afraid to tell I a friend... Your full of shit. Or call them on when they are being stupid on something. This doesn't mean we can't be respecting their ability to take their actions. But, be there when the cardslay put. Maybe one wrong and you need to eat crwow and can learn something as result. Maybe you are right and can be there to give a hand out of it.

I don't need friends when the sun is out and beautiful. I need them when it's storming! I need them to be there when they can call me of my bullshit just as much as I need them to be able to say they are wrong too. I do the same for them as well. If you want a cheer leader or some to kiss your ass as a friend well all the power to you. But i want someone to call me on my shit. That is actually the best part of my girls ... It's why they are my best friends.

Edited to add....

Another thought to expand upon. And really the major point of my previous post. We need to learn to listen! To often on these boards we stop listening. Shit gets called all the time. Often, it's called on in a pretty good way. But after a time it's rather clear the person isn't posting to learn. They are posting to get their view supported or seeking justification to their actions. But when they don't get what they want to hear all hell breaks loose.

We don't listen that well sometimes.... And when we finally do.... Sometimes it's to the wrong people.... I think that happens a lot because they are still looking for the message that supports their in we view. We don't listen and we don't challenge our own view enough. I have been guilty of it... Still am at times.... Expect I always am. But every now and again... Someone calls me on my shit... I am a better person for it.



HarryVanWinkle -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:33:17 PM)

quote:

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?


This is much more prevalent among members of the so called "online BDSM community" than it is in the real-time community. In fact, it's almost non-existent there. I often refer to it as "The One True Way Syndrome". Most of the people who espouse it don't actually do BDSM. What they do is live in a fantasy world, hiding behind their computers with one hand on the keyboard and the other between their legs. They defend their "One True Way" so vehemently because those who challenge it threaten to destroy their fantasy worlds.



KnightofMists -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:46:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

This is much more prevalent among members of the so called "online BDSM community" than it is in the real-time community. In fact, it's almost non-existent there. I often refer to it as "The One True Way Syndrome". Most of the people who espouse it don't actually do BDSM. What they do is live in a fantasy world, hiding behind their computers with one hand on the keyboard and the other between their legs. They defend their "One True Way" so vehemently because those who challenge it threaten to destroy their fantasy worlds.



Actually.. I don't think so. I would agree that in the personal communities it is a lot more suppressed and less vocal. But I think that one trueism as you call it is rather apparent if you watch closely enough. But because it is louder in the online environment we perceive it larger than it really is.



MariaB -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/16/2013 1:50:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

quote:

Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised?


This is much more prevalent among members of the so called "online BDSM community" than it is in the real-time community. In fact, it's almost non-existent there. I often refer to it as "The One True Way Syndrome". Most of the people who espouse it don't actually do BDSM. What they do is live in a fantasy world, hiding behind their computers with one hand on the keyboard and the other between their legs. They defend their "One True Way" so vehemently because those who challenge it threaten to destroy their fantasy worlds.


I think people are more aggressive about it on-line but its certainly no less prevalent within the real life BDSM community that I know.

On-line seems to be very polarised because its much easier to create an on-line persona that's actually bullshit. In rl you have to at least be a real person but that aside, there are some huge egos that believe and promote the one true way. You only have to sit in a club with a small crowd and listen to them whispering and gossiping about how Jack knows shit about how to flog lilly's breasts and how lilly isn't a 'real' sub because of the way she interacts with others.

Its nature, Its the way people are, not only on the scene but in anything where people congregate with similar interests or views. Some people are very good at influencing others and some people are very easily influenced.



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