RE: What do *YOU* think about cheaters? And why?

RE: What do *YOU* think about cheaters? And why? (Full Version)

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ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 9:58:52 AM)
I think there are different levels of cheating as well. A one time thing is likely a symptom of some problems. A long term affair where the person has been lying for years is another thing entirely. Trust can be rebuilt, but it takes time and patience. I think it's great your friend took steps to save the marriage. Just for the record, I'm not a 'get out and take him for everything he's worth' person. I'm a 'do everything to save the marriage' person -- if that's what they both truly want. He had to have been motivated to change, and she had to be tough even though it must have been very difficult at times.

theshytype -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:02:27 AM)
I was in the same situation. In the other thread, I mentioned I had been cheated on. Well, I'm still with that man. As I stated before, we had both contributed to a failing relationship. He took a cowardly way out. We separated for a while and I had filed for divorce. Because of that break, we were able to think more clearly. Communicated much better. If it hadn't been for the kids, I probably wouldn't have given him a second chance. I am glad I did. We're much happier than we were before and learned from our past mistakes. Before that happened to me, I had someone very close to me cheat on his wife, who was also close to me. My advice to both of them was the same "It's really none of my business and whatever you decide, I'll be there for you". According to them, something I said made them work it out. I'm still not sure what I said that was so incredibly helpful, but they did not need me lecturing or bashing. I did not take sides or share my opinions.

AAkasha -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:05:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Why is it any of my business? That's what I think. Doesn't it become your business if it effects you? What it you found out your sister or your brother or your best friend were being cheated on?. Would it still not be your business? What if they were the cheater, and expected you to keep their secrets a/o lie to cover for them. Would you be willing to do that, since it's not your business? What if it were your son or your daughter? (The cheater or being cheated on.) That's a different question entirely than a wide open discussion allowing people to broadly judge "cheaters" and get in a moral high horse so they can feel quite good about themselves by judging a group of people by putting them into broad circumstances without any situational paramenters - at all. And whereby it's none of their business. It just gives everyone an opportunity to be nosy neighbors, busy bodies, gossips, and know-it-alls. And everyone is eating it up. Do you see how petty you all are? There is no simple answer to what a "cheater" is. Yet, everyone is very excited to judge the broad term - again, and to be very judgmental (and pick their own very private moral ground, conveniently, since this has not been defined what kind of cheating we are talking about). The very definition of judging other people's situations, shortcomings, dirty laundry, etc. and gossip, etc. is extremely petty and reeks of high school. And now that you can't get enough of it in real life - you just make it up hypothetically. Then this thread explodes. Boggles the mind. I think I need to start a few more threads about strapons, face sitting, CBT and chastity. Some people may whine that my rent is due, but at least we can have some discussion about S&M instead of petty gossip. Akasha

JeffBC -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:07:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I'm not sure I 'condemn' those who cheat, that's a strong word. I do think they need to take a long hard look at themselves. My thoughts align with yours CP. And, like you, I do not condemn such people. I do recognize that they aren't operating from a standpoint of honor. The caveat to that is... people change. If I found someone cheated at the age of 23 and they are now 45 and it hasn't happened in any intervening relationships I'd still have some yellow-flags waving but it'd be worth investigating. Someone who cheated in their most recent relationship or recently would be entirely unacceptable to me. The thing is, by my reading, it isn't just the cheating. The affects of "no honor" span everything. I don't really need to know "what goes on in their relationship". I only need to know that they broke what is, to me, the most important vow they could ever make. The extenuating circumstances are meaningless. And yes, I've been in sexless marriages and the marriage. I rode the celibacy out through the last year of marriage, and the year of separation, and all the way up to the moment I called her and said, "I want a divorce." I don't condemn them but I don't trust them either... and not just about cheating.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:14:45 AM)
You ask a question, and Missokyst just opens a vein for you. I have seen some tragic things happen with my older sister as well. She's been married 9 times to 7 different men. (yes, she married the same guy twice...twice). She cheated on all of them. She has great kids but they are incapable of trusting in relationships, and that's sad.

Reform -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:19:16 AM)
Just to give a different view: Cheating was the best thing I ever did for myself. Yes it was wrong, and low, but it was a choice I made for myself in a situation that had left me with little choice. After I cheated, I was able to leave an abusive relationship and move on with my life. It gave me strength and opened my eyes to the fact I could do something about it, and that continuing to wait was not going to help. I certainly didn't plan on ever being a cheater, and don't plan on doing it in the future, but I really do think it was a great choice and experience for me at the time.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:19:41 AM)
I should preface this by saying that I have no problem with polyamory. I have been in several poly relationships, and have served two married Dommes. So IMO, going outside of the confines of your "main" partner is not an issue if all parties agree to it. Having said that, I don't agree with "cheating". IMO, healthy relationships (should) have a foundation of trust and communication. "Cheating" goes against both principles. So I don't see how it can foster the health of the relationship. There are unquestionably reasons why one partner might become frustrated in a relationship. We've all probably been there. Relationships can be challenging. There may even be times when the relationship becomes so taxing that one or both parties may be (extremely) unhappy. But if the relationship is built upon trust and honest communication, they can usually work through those issues. Working through those issues may ultimately lead to terminating the relationship. And that's fine. What's NOT fine (IMO) is when one party essentially terminates the relationship (by cheating) without having the integrity to tell the other partner. There are many undesirable consequences that can come from cheating. I have a very close friend who contracted HIV due to her partner's cheating. She never asked for that. And it was unfair of him to bring that into their relationship without her knowledge. I'm certain that she would have rather had a divorce than AIDS. In fact, she told me as much. But he never gave her that option. Instead, he tried to "have his cake and eat it too". And in doing so, he hurt all 3 parties, and destroyed BOTH relationships (the person that he cheated with apparently didn't know that he was married). Since break-ups/divorce, open relationships, and polyamory exist as viable alternatives (and there are probably others), I just don't see the need for cheating. But of course, cheaters have been with us since the dawn of time, so it would be naive to think that cheating will ever be eradicated.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:22:09 AM)
I wish you had answered my subsequent questions, as opposed to going on your own tangent about how petty we are for judging those who admit to cheating. You know, talking about how you feel about cheating is not gossiping, it's talking about how you feel about something that many find very dishonest. I came clean about cheating in the past, and I'm not the only one who has done so. People can and do change. I think those who have rebuilt a relationship after such devastating dishonesty deserve major kudos. BTW: I purposely left the topic rather broads so the discussion could flow organically. In any case, I do appreciate your right to air your perspective.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:23:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl I had a ring side seat watching two of my best friends deal with being cheated on. It was devastating. They felt worthless, betrayed, shamed, embarrassed, unlovable, etc. It positively destroyed one of them. She tried to kill herself, then spent 5 or 6 years thinking that sex (in pretty much any form) could fill the hole. It took a really long time for someone to come along that could show her that she really deserved to be loved. I truly think that when you cheat, you're saying that your orgasm is more important than the well being of the person that you've made a vow to. I had to requote this for those who think cheating doesn't have consequences. Thanks, OGirl!

Rochsub2009 -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:32:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha ...... allowing people to broadly judge "cheaters" and get in a moral high horse so they can feel quite good about themselves by judging a group of people by putting them into broad circumstances without any situational paramenters - at all. And whereby it's none of their business. It just gives everyone an opportunity to be nosy neighbors, busy bodies, gossips, and know-it-alls. And everyone is eating it up. Do you see how petty you all are? Actually, you're the one who seems a bit judgmental here. It's as viable a topic as any. Frankly, I don't think I can stomach one more discussion about financial Dommes, or another thread with a male sub begging any random female to "cuckold him". Moreover, who says that it's none of our business? I'm sure that many (most?) of us can draw upon personal experience when discussing this topic. I've been cheated on, and I've been the partner of a cheater (although I can honestly say that I've never cheated on one of my partners). So it is only your personal interpretation of the topic that makes it appear to be "none of your business". If you read my earlier response, you'll see that I tried to be nonjudgmental. I recognized that relationships are difficult. I even acknowledged that I have been in several poly relationships (and some may perceive polyamory to be immoral). So for me, it's not a question of being judgmental, but rather, I am genuinely puzzled by why cheating becomes the top option when there are so many other options to explore. I do understand that the financial and emotional implications of divorce make it a non-option to some. I also understand that many won't agree to the idea of participating in an open or poly relationship. And it's those limitations (along with many others that I've probably forgotten) that make this topic so personal. It's going to differ for every single person. Frankly, I don't see that perspective as being nosey, gossipy, "holier-than-thou", or petty. But you may disagree.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:32:42 AM)
Some additional quotes, most of which I've snipped for brevity's sake, offering a variety of perspectives. quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Cheating is only one form of deceit, but it's deceit and that's what I take issue with. I don't necessarily think that all people who cheat are unhappy. I think there are a lot of "don't ask don't tell" relationships out there. I think there are folks who really don't want to know and turn a blind eye and they're good with that. I even believe that there are people who cheat and really love their spouse.. for companionship and maybe sex too, but they're wired for variety. And of course there are those who look elsewhere because they are very unhappy with the person they married, but for whatever reason don't want a divorce and fessing up would result in a divorce. And in all of the above here, I still believe that the deceit has corrosive consequences even when folks are quite content to live with those consequences rather than end things. quote: ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2 You never know another relationship from the inside out except for your own, and even that knowledge is limited by our own perceptions. The only people I am willing to judge on this issue are myself and my partner. quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 I shoulda cheated on my ex (cuz he stopped wanting sex) but never did.. cuz I decided I didn't want to live a double life and have it eat away at my soul like that (perhaps its easier for guys to ignore that aspect?).. I eventually told him its over, I want out.. I don't regret that at all, he was wrong for me.. now if I meet the right guy I can jump him.. errr.. I mean we can live happily ever after.. [:D] What I think about cheaters is that everyone loses.. and that they should decide to either fix what's wrong and be in the marriage/relationship & faithful or get out of it so everyone can find their own path.. quote: ORIGINAL: theshytype Before that happened to me, I had someone very close to me cheat on his wife, who was also close to me. My advice to both of them was the same "It's really none of my business and whatever you decide, I'll be there for you". According to them, something I said made them work it out. I'm still not sure what I said that was so incredibly helpful, but they did not need me lecturing or bashing. I did not take sides or share my opinions.

FelineRanger -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:34:44 AM)
You could make a case that my opinion on monogamy is created by a string of bad relationships, including my one and only marriage, and I wouldn't argue with you at all. I think the problem with "cheating" isn't really the act itself, but the cultural construct of monogamy. Like it or not, humans, Homo Sapiens as scientists would say, are still part of the animal kingdom and pair bonding for life is actually very rare. IIRC the only great apes who do this are orangutans. And, yes, contrary to the religious blowhards most fervent declarations, Homo Sapiens are still part of the great apes. Now, all of that being said, we also have the ability to make choices. Whether you agree to monogamy through negotiation or marriage vows or some other way, you have made a choice to live under this restriction. I do also agree with those who said that cheating is an indicator of unhappiness. If you've agreed to live under the rules of monogamy and you're unhappy, you really need to talk to your partner first before going outside the relationship. Basically, monogamy and the phrase " 'til death do us part" has become such a cultural juggernaut that few are willing to confront it and their unhappiness.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:34:58 AM)
Thank you for weighing in, LadyP. To no one's shock and awe, I agree with you. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact (snipped) Unlike Aakasha, I don't believe that it doesn't effect anyone else. That person that got hurt has other people that are important in their lives and it does have a ripple effect. Many people carry the baggage of being cheated on and it makes it difficult to trust others in future relationships. When the lies are exposed, it can be rather devastating. We talk a lot here about the tenets of honesty, communication, and consent. If you actually believe in those, they aren't relegated to just scenes or play time.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:37:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC The caveat to that is... people change. If I found someone cheated at the age of 23 and they are now 45 and it hasn't happened in any intervening relationships I'd still have some yellow-flags waving but it'd be worth investigating. Someone who cheated in their most recent relationship or recently would be entirely unacceptable to me. The thing is, by my reading, it isn't just the cheating. The affects of "no honor" span everything. I don't really need to know "what goes on in their relationship". I only need to know that they broke what is, to me, the most important vow they could ever make. The extenuating circumstances are meaningless. And yes, I've been in sexless marriages and the marriage. I rode the celibacy out through the last year of marriage, and the year of separation, and all the way up to the moment I called her and said, "I want a divorce." I don't condemn them but I don't trust them either... and not just about cheating. Back in my late teens when I cheated, I was not someone who a person should trust with their emotions. There was something broke in me, and I used other men to try and fix it. The truth is, I wasn't good relationship material. That I cheated was a symptom of that.

OsideGirl -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:40:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger I think the problem with "cheating" isn't really the act itself, but the cultural construct of monogamy. We have pretty much an open marriage. That does not mean that we have sex with whom ever we want. It means that if we meet someone that we're interested in, we talk about it and have an approval process. I'm less concerned about the act. I'm more concerned about whether he lies to me or forms an emotional attachment without informing me. I would consider that cheating. I'm also willing to bet that most poly families that also would take a dim view on cheating as well. It's not something that is locked into monogamy.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:43:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger I think the problem with "cheating" isn't really the act itself, but the cultural construct of monogamy. Like it or not, humans, Homo Sapiens as scientists would say, are still part of the animal kingdom and pair bonding for life is actually very rare. I agree with this completely. Very good post! I believe that most people find their actual desires and their "morals" in opposition far more often than they care to admit.

evesgrden -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:51:46 AM)
quote: There is no simple answer to what a "cheater" is. Yet, everyone is very excited to judge the broad term - again, and to be very judgmental (and pick their own very private moral ground, conveniently, since this has not been defined what kind of cheating we are talking about). The very definition of judging other people's situations, shortcomings, dirty laundry, etc. and gossip, etc. is extremely petty and reeks of high school. Ethics --- not just for teenagers anymore. I spoke of cheating as deceit, and so it is. How can deceit not involve morality? By definition it involves decption, abuse of trust, implicit harm.. this is not an appropriate topic for grownups? It doesn't matter what form the deceit takes; dicky dipping, depends on what "is" is., emotional intimacy, drinking; when you (generic) cheat you are betraying trust. Can I come up with situations where I could certainly understand and even possibly support someone doing that? Yes. Not in this situation, but I surely can and indeed have. Doesn't make it any less corrosive. Doesn't make it moral. Doesn't make it good. As for judging people's dirty laundry, if I come to a public forum and say "here's my dirty laundry.. how can I make people think it's clean without soap and water" I need to expect that some folks are gonna say "get of yer ass and just do the frigging laundry.. you're stinking up the joint". As for gossip, it's kinda hard to talk behind the OP's back when you're responding to their post in a public forum... .where they aired their dirty laundry one sock at a time. Am I judgemental? Well my opinon is something that I have judged to be so. I can live with that. Yet you see nothing amiss in calling a whole group here petty, juvenile, and so forth; also judgemental no? We all have opinions, and when someone posts something here they are inviting opinions, and indeed offering to make it anyone's business who might be interested in making a commment.

Spiritedsub2 -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:52:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger I think the problem with "cheating" isn't really the act itself, but the cultural construct of monogamy. Like it or not, humans, Homo Sapiens as scientists would say, are still part of the animal kingdom and pair bonding for life is actually very rare. I agree with this completely. Very good post! I believe that most people find their actual desires and their "morals" in opposition far more often than they care to admit. Sure, and part of being civilized is choosing to override some of our actual desires with our ethical principles. Desire for multiple sexual partners when in a monogamous relationship is just one example of that. If I were not so civilized, there would be a few mangled corpses trailing in my wake [:D]

OsideGirl -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 10:57:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Ethics --- not just for teenagers anymore. This was a wonderful post!

sexyred1 -> RE: What do YOU* think about cheaters? And why?* (8/16/2013 11:02:42 AM)
First off, this thread is not about the construct of monogamy in humans, and ChatteParfait please correct me if I am wrong, and it is not about gossip. It is a very good topic for a thread since it is not about any particular OP, but more about your own personal philosophy, as I see it. In my opinion, cheating is a cowardly, hurtful thing. I understand that some attribute what they view as very valid excuses for cheating, but to me, nothing is valid in any case. Why? Because the person is LYING. Lying to a partner is just wrong. Sorry, you can sugarcoat it however you want, but it is wrong. It is wrong because it takes away your choice to remain with that person or to fix whatever might be wrong. If someone cheats on you you can choose to stay, but you first have to KNOW about it. There are a myriad reasons why people cheat. I have personal experience with someone who cheated on me despite our awe inspiring sex life. But he did not cheat because of that, he cheated because he felt not good enough for me and yet did not want to break up with me. While I understood his reasoning, his behavior just went on instead of being a man and ending it for good. His cheating represented his efforts to feel more adequate with me on the other levels besides actual sex. Again, while I intellectually understood this, it still hurt me very much as I had never been cheated on before. And as always, when someone continues to proclaim their love for you and still cheats, it is the actions that count over the words. I am judgemental to cheaters. I have seen lives ruined, and people damaged, including kids. The only correct thing to do if you want to cheat is to share that with your partner and face the consequences so you can give them a CHOICE TO ACCEPT OR NOT ACCEPT IT. Anything less is cowardly, self indulgent and hurtful.

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