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RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 12:54:04 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Precisely what I said. There was no capture, but there was pursuit. There is no capture in pursuit, they are different concepts.

From the dawn of time and their incorporation into the English language....follow and pursuit are describing the concept of one after another........that is all.

You have convicted youself out of your own mouth in agreement, but have not convinced yourself out of your own mouth, I warrant.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 1:11:04 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Precisely what I said. There was no capture, but there was pursuit. There is no capture in pursuit, they are different concepts.

From the dawn of time and their incorporation into the English language....follow and pursuit are describing the concept of one after another........that is all.

You have convicted youself out of your own mouth in agreement, but have not convinced yourself out of your own mouth, I warrant.

Pursuit requires following, following does not require pursuit.
You, and others, understanding that to pursue you must follow do not or will not see that to follow you do not have to pursue.
Pursuit is a precise form of following and not accurate in this instance.
Further since he had lost contact with Martin and was returning to his truck it is irrelevant.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 1:45:24 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Pursuit requires following, following does not require pursuit.

No.

Following requires following, pursuit does not require pursuit. I have made an equvalently ludicrous example of your work.


They are interchangeable words. Period.

they both mean one after another.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 2:42:24 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		The first definition for "follow" applies to a temporal context. The second defintion is:

to go or come after; move behind in the same direction

To "pursue" has a very different connotation in this context:

to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase

Zimmerman followed Trayvon.

Sources:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/follow
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pursue

K.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 3:14:19 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Zimmerman pursued Trayvon.

They are not being used (either one in a temporal form) although they do relate to a series of events in order, as a necessary and sufficient condition of their making any fucking sense as words, which forbids time as we know it flowing from present to past. Or the cart before the horse.

They are the same frame of reference.

It matters not. The order of the nuances of dictionary definition have absolutely no import.

follow is a synonym for pursue, and pursue is a synonym for follow.

You and I are using the same dictionary (and it is the best of the online I find, with an occasional foray into Merriam) but no OED online I can afford.

They are equivalent words. You follow?

Edited to add:

Upon further reflection, pursue is often used to convey more intensity of purpose. So, given that case I will say; Zimmerman pursued Martin, therefore; Zimmerman did not follow him.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/23/2013 3:27:07 PM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 5:11:47 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The first definition for "follow" applies to a temporal context. The second defintion is:

to go or come after; move behind in the same direction

To "pursue" has a very different connotation in this context:

to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase

Zimmerman followed Trayvon.

Sources:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/follow
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pursue

K.



Precisely.

Some more words from an expert on such matters:

"The evidence indicates that Zimmerman didn’t get out of his car until the operator asked where the suspicious person was, and where the police should meet Zimmerman, the complainant. Taking that as a request for information, Zimmerman obligingly got out of the car to gather the intelligence that seemed to have been implicitly requested of him. He was, after all, the elected (not self-appointed) captain of Neighborhood Watch, and his function as Eyes and Ears of the Police had been drilled into him and the other Watch members through the Police Department itself. When the call-taker asked if he was following the man, Zimmerman replied in the affirmative. He was then told, “You don’t have to do that.”

The evidence indicates that he stopped following Martin at that moment. His former rapid breathing returned to normal and wind noise from his phone stopped, consistent with his testimony that he stopped following and had lost sight of Martin. The dispatcher did not “order” him to stop following, and later admitted in court that he had no authority to do so. Nonetheless, it was clear that Zimmerman was simply following Martin to keep him in sight and report his whereabouts, not “pursuing” with any intent to “confront.”

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/17/zimmerman-verdict-part-3-who-started-it/

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 5:14:30 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


He would have had no need to defend himself had he not been pursuing a course for which he was not professionally qualified, nor legally empowered, and for which he had been specifically been directed by an agent of authority to not pursue.



All of this is either disproven by evidence or by law.




None of what I pointed out has been disproved, certainly not by any evidence.




Untrue. 1) He was legally within his rights to follow Trayvon. 2) Evidence shown in court shows he ceased following when advised to do so.
3) Your "agent of authority" said under oath that he in fact had no authority.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 5:23:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Pursuit requires following, following does not require pursuit.

No.

Following requires following, pursuit does not require pursuit. I have made an equvalently ludicrous example of your work.


They are interchangeable words. Period.

they both mean one after another.

Then you have not problem with someone saying that Zimmerman followed Martin?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 11:06:21 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
He could not have defended himself if he were not attacked.


quote:

Had there been proof , even evidence that Zimmerman was too unstable to own a gun the prosecution would have mentioned it.


Not enough evidence for you, perhaps, but more than enough for the rest of a sane society.
If you want that guy in your neighborhood, you can have him, but the conjecture here is that your sanity-posessed neighbors would direct a stern eye towards you for inviting him, which you seem to be more than willing to do.


Ah, no. Last I understand zimmermans gun rights are unabridged. Ergo sane society finds you ... wrong.

As for stand your ground laws - I applaud them. Law abiding citizens do not have an obligation to retreat in the presence of thuggery. Thats the lesson of Zimmerman. Zimmerman exercised his rights - and was subject to scrutiny for them.

In the end, he was found not guilty OF ANY CRIME.


(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/23/2013 11:08:27 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


He would have had no need to defend himself had he not been pursuing a course for which he was not professionally qualified, nor legally empowered, and for which he had been specifically been directed by an agent of authority to not pursue.



All of this is either disproven by evidence or by law.




None of what I pointed out has been disproved, certainly not by any evidence.




Untrue. 1) He was legally within his rights to follow Trayvon. 2) Evidence shown in court shows he ceased following when advised to do so.
3) Your "agent of authority" said under oath that he in fact had no authority.




Putting it more directly, it was said under oath that the police did not direct Mr. Zimmerman to not follow him.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 2:19:31 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As for stand your ground laws - I applaud them. Law abiding citizens do not have an obligation to retreat in the presence of thuggery. Thats the lesson of Zimmerman. Zimmerman exercised his rights - and was subject to scrutiny for them.

Zimmerman did not stand his ground. He defended himself when a thug out to seriously harm him or kill him continued to attack him, despite Zimmerman's obvious defeat and surrender.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 2:29:05 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Owner, I just wanna say FU very much for making a post with the angle on the Zman
way to completely destroy the OP


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 6:39:37 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Pursuit requires following, following does not require pursuit.

No.

Following requires following, pursuit does not require pursuit. I have made an equvalently ludicrous example of your work.


They are interchangeable words. Period.

they both mean one after another.

Then you have not problem with someone saying that Zimmerman followed Martin?



Well, I didn't until we started chewing on this. Now I do. He pursued him.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 10:39:21 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		He wanted to stir up the Zimmy stuff again. If shit sits too long then the smell starts to go away, so you take a stick and stir it some more, maybe add some other ingredients.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

What the fuck has this to do with dumbass Zimmy?



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 12:36:34 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Pursuit requires following, following does not require pursuit.

No.

Following requires following, pursuit does not require pursuit. I have made an equvalently ludicrous example of your work.


They are interchangeable words. Period.

they both mean one after another.


No wonder you have so much problem with posting here. Your grasp of English is poor, and/or you are willing to ignore obvious truth to stick with a dogmatic position.

Here, let me make it clearer for you:

First example: The pursuit of happiness.
Second example: His lifelong pursuit was racial equality for all.

As the first example shows, one may pursue an an unattainable goal; similiarly one may pursue an occupation or passion. His pursuit was racial equality for all. The object of ones pursuit may be a vocation or following. It may be unattainable.

Third example: The police are in red-hot pursuit of a stolen vehicle. As in the first example, pursuit has the color of urgency, passion, or immediacy which following does not have.

Replace the words "the following of happiness". It doesn't mean the same, nor does it have the same color.

Following someone does not have the speed implied behind pursueing someone.

Pursuit comes from the word- to prosecute. Its synonyms (dictionary.com) are chase, stalk. It can mean to follow closely, to overtake, chase or kill

Clearly, if it means to follow with the intent to overtake, chase or kill - it cannot mean the same as 'to follow".




(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 12:39:08 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

He wanted to stir up the Zimmy stuff again. If shit sits too long then the smell starts to go away, so you take a stick and stir it some more, maybe add some other ingredients.

Another corpse?


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 12:42:21 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
As for stand your ground laws - I applaud them. Law abiding citizens do not have an obligation to retreat in the presence of thuggery. Thats the lesson of Zimmerman. Zimmerman exercised his rights - and was subject to scrutiny for them.

Zimmerman did not stand his ground. He defended himself when a thug out to seriously harm him or kill him continued to attack him, despite Zimmerman's obvious defeat and surrender.


Completely agree.

Nonetheless, I stand by my statement that the effect of the SYG laws have been that citizens do not have to retreat in the presence of thuggery.

I think it is quite clear that their is a significant grass roots movement to stand up for the rights of citizens and the rights of gun owners, and the SYG laws are an outpouring of this.

Here to now, gun owners had a moral obligation to retreat. People that were in a position to do something, could not. The SYG laws have served to better enumerate and codify that people do not have an obligation to retreat - despite the fact that no SYG defense was asserted in the Zimmerman case.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 1:31:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Owner, I just wanna say FU very much for making a post with the angle on the Zman
way to completely destroy the OP


That wasn't a derailment, the purpose of this thread was to rehash Zimmerman via the backdoor of another incident, just look at the name.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 1:34:16 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		FFS you read minds too???
I already swore at him for using zimmys name, on a thread to rehash the shit.... with the usual idiots appearing...
you dont think the actual story had any merit on its own????
I did, but sod trying to discuss it with the zimmy freaks onboard

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: For fans of George Zimmerman..... - 8/24/2013 1:47:19 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FFS you read minds too???
I already swore at him for using zimmys name, on a thread to rehash the shit.... with the usual idiots appearing...
you dont think the actual story had any merit on its own????
I did, but sod trying to discuss it with the zimmy freaks onboard

The title is an open invitation to tie in Zimmerman.
The case has little merit or food for discussion as the minuteman clearly screwed up.
There is no defense for him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 60
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