RE: Bored in Oklahoma (Full Version)

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Rule -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/24/2013 2:09:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The US has the world's highest incarceration rate, with over 2 million currently in prison, and another >4 million in the criminal justice system, presumably on parole or serving non-custodial sentences. So, whatever it merits or demerits, imprisonment isn't working.

Two million people with evil alleles are (temporarily) prevented from reproducing. Hm, it seems to me that it is working fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
At the very least we might agree that it has no discernible deterrent value.

Deterrent value? [:-]
You mean that you want to introduce the sharia?
You mean that you have given up on humanity and that you have accepted that all humans are evil and are without a conscience?

Whereas we know that some of us do have a conscience. Evolution theory predicts that if those with a conscience are given a reproductive advantage and if those without a conscience are made to have a reproductive disadvantage, that the former will become the larger fraction of the population and the latter the smaller fraction.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The second point is that, compared to other countries, the US welfare system is minimal. It seems reasonable to infer that levels of desperation among the marginalised are greater, which can be expected to feed into the crime rate.

That is not reasonable. It is baseless fantasizing at best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I hope that all sides of this discussion can agree that limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain is at the core of this discussion. Perhaps concentrating on this might enable a more productive conversation.

Nope. This side of the discussion does not agree.

People with a conscience could not care less how many guns are lying about. So it does is reasonable to conclude that those who want to limit the availability of guns are without a conscience.




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/24/2013 1:36:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Whatever the rights and wrongs seriously of it, Zonie's point - that political forces will prevent any attempt to impose serious gun control -reflects today's political reality. So where does that leave us? Are there any points of agreement that will allow us to form a strategy that might successfully put a dent in gun crime and violence?

To begin with, I would like to draw attention to two points that seem to me to be relevant but rarely get mentioned in these discussions. The US has the world's highest incarceration rate, with over 2 million currently in prison, and another >4 million in the criminal justice system, presumably on parole or serving non-custodial sentences. So, whatever it merits or demerits, imprisonment isn't working. At the very least we might agree that it has no discernible deterrent value.

The second point is that, compared to other countries, the US welfare system is minimal. It seems reasonable to infer that levels of desperation among the marginalised are greater, which can be expected to feed into the crime rate.

I hope that all sides of this discussion can agree that limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain is at the core of this discussion. Perhaps concentrating on this might enable a more productive conversation.


Your post ignores the fact (which to be fair you may be unaware of) that while coverage has increased crime in the U S has been cut in half in the last two decades. It isn't perfect but clearly it is headed in the right direction.




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/24/2013 1:43:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The US has the world's highest incarceration rate, with over 2 million currently in prison, and another >4 million in the criminal justice system, presumably on parole or serving non-custodial sentences. So, whatever it merits or demerits, imprisonment isn't working.

Two million people with evil alleles are (temporarily) prevented from reproducing. Hm, it seems to me that it is working fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
At the very least we might agree that it has no discernible deterrent value.

Deterrent value? [:-]
You mean that you want to introduce the sharia?
You mean that you have given up on humanity and that you have accepted that all humans are evil and are without a conscience?

Whereas we know that some of us do have a conscience. Evolution theory predicts that if those with a conscience are given a reproductive advantage and if those without a conscience are made to have a reproductive disadvantage, that the former will become the larger fraction of the population and the latter the smaller fraction.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The second point is that, compared to other countries, the US welfare system is minimal. It seems reasonable to infer that levels of desperation among the marginalised are greater, which can be expected to feed into the crime rate.

That is not reasonable. It is baseless fantasizing at best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I hope that all sides of this discussion can agree that limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain is at the core of this discussion. Perhaps concentrating on this might enable a more productive conversation.

Nope. This side of the discussion does not agree.

People with a conscience could not care less how many guns are lying about. So it does is reasonable to conclude that those who want to limit the availability of guns are without a conscience.

When I was in high school most homes had loaded gun lying around.
This did not lead to crime.
They also taught values, this also did not lead to crime.
Crimes like this are caused by what Kirata calls feral teenagers, having no values and no respect.
This is what we need to address, even though it is much harder than just passing a law.
Perhaps if we focused on this the conversation could be more productive.




tweakabelle -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/24/2013 7:30:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Whatever the rights and wrongs seriously of it, Zonie's point - that political forces will prevent any attempt to impose serious gun control -reflects today's political reality. So where does that leave us? Are there any points of agreement that will allow us to form a strategy that might successfully put a dent in gun crime and violence?

To begin with, I would like to draw attention to two points that seem to me to be relevant but rarely get mentioned in these discussions. The US has the world's highest incarceration rate, with over 2 million currently in prison, and another >4 million in the criminal justice system, presumably on parole or serving non-custodial sentences. So, whatever it merits or demerits, imprisonment isn't working. At the very least we might agree that it has no discernible deterrent value.

The second point is that, compared to other countries, the US welfare system is minimal. It seems reasonable to infer that levels of desperation among the marginalised are greater, which can be expected to feed into the crime rate.

I hope that all sides of this discussion can agree that limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain is at the core of this discussion. Perhaps concentrating on this might enable a more productive conversation.


Your post ignores the fact (which to be fair you may be unaware of) that while coverage has increased crime in the U S has been cut in half in the last two decades. It isn't perfect but clearly it is headed in the right direction.

Generally crime rates are headed south throughout the West. The US is no exception.

No one has produced a definitive analysis identifying the reasons for this trend. Some economists have identified the peak in crime with the period when Baby Boomers were reaching adulthood ........




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/24/2013 8:00:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Whatever the rights and wrongs seriously of it, Zonie's point - that political forces will prevent any attempt to impose serious gun control -reflects today's political reality. So where does that leave us? Are there any points of agreement that will allow us to form a strategy that might successfully put a dent in gun crime and violence?

To begin with, I would like to draw attention to two points that seem to me to be relevant but rarely get mentioned in these discussions. The US has the world's highest incarceration rate, with over 2 million currently in prison, and another >4 million in the criminal justice system, presumably on parole or serving non-custodial sentences. So, whatever it merits or demerits, imprisonment isn't working. At the very least we might agree that it has no discernible deterrent value.

The second point is that, compared to other countries, the US welfare system is minimal. It seems reasonable to infer that levels of desperation among the marginalised are greater, which can be expected to feed into the crime rate.

I hope that all sides of this discussion can agree that limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain is at the core of this discussion. Perhaps concentrating on this might enable a more productive conversation.


Your post ignores the fact (which to be fair you may be unaware of) that while coverage has increased crime in the U S has been cut in half in the last two decades. It isn't perfect but clearly it is headed in the right direction.

Generally crime rates are headed south throughout the West. The US is no exception.

No one has produced a definitive analysis identifying the reasons for this trend. Some economists have identified the peak in crime with the period when Baby Boomers were reaching adulthood ........

A theory for which I was roundly ridiculed when I brought ir up seven or eight months ago.
The sharp rise and the drop were predicted well before the peak making the theory more valid.
It is one thing to look back and say these coinciding facts must be cause and effect. It is quite another to say A will lead to B and then to C and have it happen.
The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.




tweakabelle -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 3:37:30 AM)

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 1:20:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]

Right you instill values and respect for human life by dealing with inanimate objects which have no effect on either.
Besides as you admit it is already illegal for most of them to have guns anyway.
You are back to we can't stop the guilty so lets penalize the innocent




tweakabelle -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 4:39:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]

Right you instill values and respect for human life by dealing with inanimate objects which have no effect on either.
Besides as you admit it is already illegal for most of them to have guns anyway.
You are back to we can't stop the guilty so lets penalize the innocent

Empty meaningless cliches that add up to an awful lot of nothing.

For all the pontificating, it appears that you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 4:48:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]

Right you instill values and respect for human life by dealing with inanimate objects which have no effect on either.
Besides as you admit it is already illegal for most of them to have guns anyway.
You are back to we can't stop the guilty so lets penalize the innocent

Empty meaningless cliches that add up to an awful lot of nothing.

For all the pontificating, it appears that you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.

The problem is the lack of values.
The fact thjat I see the problem from a different angle than you does not mean I have nothing to contribute any more than your empty platitudes about guns makes your input meaningless.




dcnovice -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 4:55:27 PM)

Another heartbreaker:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57600120-504083/la-boy-8-allegedly-shoots-kills-90-year-old-caregiver-after-playing-video-game-authorities-say/




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 4:59:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Another heartbreaker:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57600120-504083/la-boy-8-allegedly-shoots-kills-90-year-old-caregiver-after-playing-video-game-authorities-say/

You are right, some adult screwed up this time.




Kirata -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 6:15:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The problem is the lack of values.

Or rather, having the wrong values. Another case in point:

Cops: 20-Year-Old Man Killed 99-Year-Old NY Woman
Police Make Arrest in Cold-Blooded Senseless Murder

K.




Zonie63 -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 6:44:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]


My proposal would be to start by decriminalizing drugs (or at least marijuana to start), which would then bring it out of the underground gang environment and into the area of legitimate commerce. The War on Drugs (another inanimate object) should end. That may not deal directly with incidents such as the OP, but it will free up police resources (and prison space) so that they can deal with the more serious violent crimes.

BamaD is correct in that instilling values will help to some degree. But it's also about instilling the knowledge that committing a crime with a gun can entail severe consequences, up to and including getting shot by someone else who might have a gun. And the police will always outnumber you. If you're smart enough to realize that the chances of getting away with it are pretty slim, just basic common sense should keep most gun owners from doing anything crazy or stupid.

But somehow, some people think they can get away with it - or even if they do get caught, they won't really have to face any severe penalties. Hell, I remember experiencing a sense of dread about having to tell my father I got a traffic citation, but some people don't fear prison at all. Make the consequences something to fear, and maybe that will cause some to think twice.




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 7:27:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The problem is the lack of values.

Or rather, having the wrong values. Another case in point:

Cops: 20-Year-Old Man Killed 99-Year-Old NY Woman
Police Make Arrest in Cold-Blooded Senseless Murder

K.


True although I was thinking a lack of positive values




tazzygirl -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 7:36:01 PM)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/john-henry-spooner-sane-shooting-darius-simmons_n_3624423.html





BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 7:41:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/john-henry-spooner-sane-shooting-darius-simmons_n_3624423.html



No surprise.
This is one of those with no disagreement




tweakabelle -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 9:58:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The overwhelming factor in US crime rates are gangs (populated with feral teens) and drugs which finance the gangs. This is the problem that needs to be solved.


Precisely how do you propose to accomplish that with out "limiting the availability and use of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain"? [8|]


My proposal would be to start by decriminalizing drugs (or at least marijuana to start), which would then bring it out of the underground gang environment and into the area of legitimate commerce. The War on Drugs (another inanimate object) should end. That may not deal directly with incidents such as the OP, but it will free up police resources (and prison space) so that they can deal with the more serious violent crimes.

BamaD is correct in that instilling values will help to some degree. But it's also about instilling the knowledge that committing a crime with a gun can entail severe consequences, up to and including getting shot by someone else who might have a gun. And the police will always outnumber you. If you're smart enough to realize that the chances of getting away with it are pretty slim, just basic common sense should keep most gun owners from doing anything crazy or stupid.

But somehow, some people think they can get away with it - or even if they do get caught, they won't really have to face any severe penalties. Hell, I remember experiencing a sense of dread about having to tell my father I got a traffic citation, but some people don't fear prison at all. Make the consequences something to fear, and maybe that will cause some to think twice.

Your first proposal - to decriminalise marijuana - is an excellent idea. It will free a lot of resources up for dealing with nasty crimes of violence

Decriminalising marijuana will remove lots of youths from criminal environments, which can only be a good thing. One of the reasons why laws are broken so regularly is that existing criminal penalties for possession and use of grass bring the Law into disrepute. So this will help turn that situation around.

The suggestion of instilling values into these kids is also good. But where will this happen? Obviously it isn't happening at the moment in the places where it should happen - at home and in school.

Following decriminalisation there will be a lot of youths and gangs who have lost a major source of their income. Decriminalisation offers an opportunity to intervene and turn many of these lives around. It might be worth considering using the income generated by taxing grass on programs specifically designed to help these youths escape the gang culture/lifestyle. This would also offer a second chance to instill some of the values we're talking about into these kids.






TheHeretic -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 10:09:48 PM)

FR

Just an FYI on terminology, but decriminalization does nothing to remove drugs from the established criminal underground networks, it just removes the sanctions and risks at the lower level transactions and on possession. What is being discussed above would require legalization.

Carry on.




BamaD -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/26/2013 10:18:41 PM)

The suggestion of instilling values into these kids is also good. But where will this happen? Obviously it isn't happening at the moment in the places where it should happen - at home and in school.

This is why I said the solution is far more difficult than just passing a couple of laws.
Society can, by way of government, make schools start doing their job.
Part of this would be telling parents that yes, their little angle is a spoiled brat.
We the kids behavior in school starts to be a problem for the parents hopefully they will start doing their job better.
Until we do something about this all the laws in the world won't do any good.




Zonie63 -> RE: Bored in Oklahoma (8/27/2013 5:53:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your first proposal - to decriminalise marijuana - is an excellent idea. It will free a lot of resources up for dealing with nasty crimes of violence

Decriminalising marijuana will remove lots of youths from criminal environments, which can only be a good thing. One of the reasons why laws are broken so regularly is that existing criminal penalties for possession and use of grass bring the Law into disrepute. So this will help turn that situation around.


TheHeretic was correct in his distinction between decriminalization and legalization, so I will slightly amend my terminology. But either way, I think it would be a helpful start.

Another way to free up police resources and prison space would be to keep as many non-violent cases out of the criminal justice system as humanly possible. If all the non-violent inmates were paroled tomorrow, how much prison space could that free up? (Finding complete, accurate, and updated statistics on this question were a bit elusive in a cursory search, although my sense is that a large chunk of the prison budgets could be drastically reduced.)

Part of the problem also has to do with the culture of the legal profession and various "by-the-book" types who have this anal retentive, obsessive need to process every single piddly little violation through the court system. (That's part of the reason why cops spend so much of their work time filling out paperwork, mainly because of anal-retentive lawyers and judges who demand it.)

quote:


The suggestion of instilling values into these kids is also good. But where will this happen? Obviously it isn't happening at the moment in the places where it should happen - at home and in school.


This is where it can get a bit tricky. Where are they getting their values from right now? If it's not at home or at school, then where? They're getting it from the streets, as well as from the media, specifically the entertainment media. Television, radio, and film, and especially the recording and video gaming industries, have made their mark on popular culture and influenced more than just the current generation of youth. They influenced my generation as well.

This is where I can see that there might be some cross purposes in terms of constitutional adherence. There are those who attack or restrictively interpret the Second Amendment, yet still feel that the First Amendment is sacrosanct, whereas there are others who might believe just the opposite. But I can also see that words and ideas can be just as dangerous as any gun, so this is an area we might need to look at.

I'm not saying that the laws or the Constitution should be changed, but perhaps there might be ways to encourage the entertainment media to voluntarily clean up their act and not turn the youth of America into amoral nihilists and sociopathic criminals. All these pompous, self-important celebrities who think they want to inject their views into politics and try to pass themselves as having a "social conscience," they need to start by cleaning up their own backyard.

Beyond that, in order to truly instill values in America's youth and in society overall, those in the upper echelon will need to lead by example and practice what they preach. If young people look at their nation's leaders and see nothing but thieves and criminals, then why would anyone expect them to act any differently? If one believes that Corporate America is nothing but a bunch of corrupt thieves and villains - and living luxurious, comfortable lifestyles from their ill-gotten booty - then how can one instill values in such a society? If you grow up thinking that the deck is already stacked against you and that the only way to get ahead is to be just as ruthless and amoral as your "role models" and "leaders" in society, then what kind of values and moral codes are being instilled?

I think that parents and teachers have to exert their influence early in life. Once kids reach their teen years, they start to realize the hierarchy of the society in which they live - and they'll quickly see that their teachers and parents are on much lower rungs on society's ladder. If the parents just park the kid in front of the TV and leave them there until they're 12, then that will have its own consequences.

The schools and teachers might also play a role, but their hands are tied somewhat by local politics. Parents may not want the schools to instill values, since they may not agree with the values espoused by the schools. So then they have to sit down and figure out which "values" they agree upon, which invariably turns into a watered down mush of vague platitudes and slogans which the kids will make fun of and cynically sneer at. The schools face an uphill battle in trying to teach or instill any values. Teachers are not very well-respected in this country, and the kids can sense this.

So, the problem has to be approached from multiple angles. I'm somewhat pessimistic that the "sacred cows" in Hollywood and Wall Street will ever clean up their act voluntarily, even if we try to appeal to their sense of good citizenship. At the very least, we have to clean out the garbage at the top before we can expect to clean out the garbage at the bottom.







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