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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/23/2013 4:47:37 PM   
Politesub53


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As far as I am aware the US has no legal treaty to come to the aid of Israel. Romney and Obama were asked that very question in a pre-election debate and ducked the issue. Both men stated the US would go to Israels aid but notably didnt mention a specific treaty, even when pushed on the issue.

The problem the West has is Blair and Bush acted using WMD`s as the main reason. Other nations will have obviously noted the difference between then and now. Acting on one case, and not the other. Basically past actons have destroyed any credibility we have, if we fail to act now. That alone makes it harder for Obama and Cameron to claim we are acting even handedly.

I am not advocating we should or shouldnt act outside of any UN mandate, just on how it will be perceived.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/24/2013 2:31:37 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

there is another hit going to be tomorrow .. on the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus ..
& there was a serious threats that its going to be chemical ...

funny thing is that area is less than 1 mile away from me.. one mistake or wind & its going to be over for me



Ashjor, I've seen reports, citing medics who are dealing with the results of these chemical attacks, saying that many civilians could have suffered milder injuries if they'd taken some basic preventive measures. Is this true? If so, are people more knowledgeable now?

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/24/2013 3:20:07 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

1400+ dead from a suspected chemical weapons attack in Syria. The depravity of the violence there has hit a new low.


Awesome post....(not that I'm at all unconcerned about others on the planet but)....and, we all know....the U.S. is so well known for telling the truth as to chemical and other attacks around the globe (having been Buds with the exact assholes who 5 years later we accuse of heresy).

Fuck yeah man...let's get into another conflict....yeah!!!!!...let's send troops in because someone has done some shit we don't like (and have incredible ability to explain to the populace that "thus and such happened"....which....uhhhhhh....never happened).

Yeah...let's go kill some assholes!!!!

ALLRIGHT!!!!

Another trillion...let's DO THIS!!!!!

Hell yeah!!!!!


< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 8/24/2013 3:38:44 PM >

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 4:08:25 AM   
ashjor911


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

there is another hit going to be tomorrow .. on the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus ..
& there was a serious threats that its going to be chemical ...

funny thing is that area is less than 1 mile away from me.. one mistake or wind & its going to be over for me



Ashjor, I've seen reports, citing medics who are dealing with the results of these chemical attacks, saying that many civilians could have suffered milder injuries if they'd taken some basic preventive measures. Is this true? If so, are people more knowledgeable now?


yes,
some of those gases are heavy than air so people how go to high ground would be less infected..

M.S.F. tell that "Atropine" helps with this stuff... but its hard to get it now & its hard to inject it into you .. i mean its a needle that goes into your heart..

however i have managed to get my hand on a youtube videos that help with making a gas masks from things you would throw into trash .. & some activated charcoal.. & videos about how to make an activated charcoal which is hard to get now.

i did not start yet i am still thinking of making those masks.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 4:22:22 AM   
Lucylastic


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Ashjor, keep safe honey, I know you dont have much choice in the matter, you are in my thoughts.
I feel kinda redundant, but then in terms of people suffering in the ME and other conflict areas, it always doesmake me feel that way.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 4:37:28 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As far as I am aware the US has no legal treaty to come to the aid of Israel. Romney and Obama were asked that very question in a pre-election debate and ducked the issue. Both men stated the US would go to Israels aid but notably didnt mention a specific treaty, even when pushed on the issue.

The US has a couple of dozen agreements centered on security. Some are directly related to military support and counter-terrorism while others are more mundane business. I wasn't about to go through all the texts but I'm sure in one or two of them is enough of a legal foundation for us to justify coming to Israels aid if necessary.


quote:


The problem the West has is Blair and Bush acted using WMD`s as the main reason. Other nations will have obviously noted the difference between then and now. Acting on one case, and not the other. Basically past actons have destroyed any credibility we have, if we fail to act now. That alone makes it harder for Obama and Cameron to claim we are acting even handedly.

True. But now everyone agrees that the WMD excuse, at least as it applied to Saddam Hussein, was a lie. That does give the current administration some wiggle room to avoid or delay using it as an excuse to get involved.


quote:


I am not advocating we should or shouldnt act outside of any UN mandate, just on how it will be perceived.

I don't think we should be doing anything there without UN approval. In fact, if we have to intervene, I'd rather wait until the UN has enough broad agreement between nations that it becomes a global demand for the US to get involved.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 5:11:27 AM   
PeonForHer


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Stay safe and *check in here* when you can, old boy, OK?

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 7:22:23 AM   
ashjor911


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Ashjor, keep safe honey, I know you dont have much choice in the matter, you are in my thoughts.
I feel kinda redundant, but then in terms of people suffering in the ME and other conflict areas, it always doesmake me feel that way.


thanks Lucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Stay safe and *check in here* when you can, old boy, OK?


will do ..



i am only 28 years old man .... people should stop calling me old ..

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 7:56:13 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911

there is another hit going to be tomorrow .. on the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus ..
& there was a serious threats that its going to be chemical ...

funny thing is that area is less than 1 mile away from me.. one mistake or wind & its going to be over for me



Ashjor, I've seen reports, citing medics who are dealing with the results of these chemical attacks, saying that many civilians could have suffered milder injuries if they'd taken some basic preventive measures. Is this true? If so, are people more knowledgeable now?


yes,
some of those gases are heavy than air so people how go to high ground would be less infected..

M.S.F. tell that "Atropine" helps with this stuff... but its hard to get it now & its hard to inject it into you .. i mean its a needle that goes into your heart..

however i have managed to get my hand on a youtube videos that help with making a gas masks from things you would throw into trash .. & some activated charcoal.. & videos about how to make an activated charcoal which is hard to get now.

i did not start yet i am still thinking of making those masks.

An activated charcoal gas mask will help with mustard gas but the nerve agents that were used in where you are, are absorbed through the skin as well. If you have been exposed to a nerve agent do inject atropine. Which does not need a cardiac needle but can be injected into the thigh. Atropine is itself poisonous so do not inject it unless you are confident you have been exposed.

If possible try and find a first aid kit intended for use on a farm. They often contain an atropine auto injector.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 9:16:00 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
there is another hit going to be tomorrow .. on the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus ..
& there was a serious threats that its going to be chemical ...

funny thing is that area is less than 1 mile away from me.. one mistake or wind & its going to be over for me

Apply tape to your windows and doors. Gas cannot kill if it cannot get in. Open a window once or twice a day to refresh the air.

It is not the best of protections - being somewhere else is the best - but it is better than none.

Good luck.


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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 9:17:50 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
check points every 1 mile ..
people get kidnaped from the streets & the kidnapers demand a huge ransom ..
the water is almost gone & so is the power ..

there is not a single day I don't see an injured person .. or more
not a single day where I don't hear a cannon fire at nowhere .. or everywhere ..
gun fire every damn day & every damn night .. seems that the guns don't sleep ..

every thing is now x3 of its original price .. or more

That sounds very bad. Hell might be a better residence than that.

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/25/2013 9:22:36 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
M.S.F. tell that "Atropine" helps with this stuff... but its hard to get it now & its hard to inject it into you .. i mean its a needle that goes into your heart..

Injection into a muscle will do just fine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ashjor911
i did not start yet i am still thinking of making those masks.

So do. Maybe you can sell them as art objects?

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 12:44:26 AM   
DarkWolf6606


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Three days after the chemical weapons attack in Syria we know that:

• The United States does not have “conclusive evidence that the (Syrian) government was behind poison-gas attacks.” [Wall Street Journal, 1]
• “Neither the United States nor European countries…have a ‘smoking gun’ proving that Mr. Assad’s troops used chemical weapons in the attack.” [New York Times, 2]
• The State Department doesn’t know “If these reports are true.” [New York Times, 3]
• The White House is trying to “ascertain the facts.” [Wall Street Journal, 4]

All the same, the absence of evidence hasn’t stopped the Pentagon “from updating target lists for possible airstrikes on a range of Syrian government and military installations”; [5] hasn’t stopped Britain and France from accusing the Syrian government of carrying out an atrocity; and hasn’t diminished the enthusiasm of newspaper editors for declaring Assad guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

“There is no doubt,” intoned the editors of one newspaper–with an omniscience denied to lesser mortals, including, it seems, US officials who are still trying “to ascertain the facts”—“that chemical weapons were used” and that Assad “committed the atrocity.” [6]

In a editorial, The Guardian avers that the Syrian military “is the only combatant with the capability to use chemical weapons on this scale.” Yet The Wall Street Journal’s Margaret Coker and Christopher Rhoads report that “Islamist rebel brigades have several times been reported to have gained control of stockpiles of chemicals, including sarin.” [7]

That might account for why the White House admitted two months ago that while it believed chemical weapons had been used in Syria, it has no evidence to indicate “who was responsible for (their) dissemination.” [8]

And given that the US president claimed chemical weapons use by the Syrian military would be a red line, the rebels have a motivation to stage a sarin attack and blame it on government forces to bring the United States into the conflict more forcefully on their side.

For the Syrian government, however, the calculus is entirely different. Using chemical weapons would simply hand the United States a pretext to more muscularly intervene in Syria’s internal affairs. Since this is decidedly against Damascus’s interests, we should be skeptical of any claim that the Syrian government is defying Obama’s red line.

Another reason for skepticism: Why use chemical weapons to produce the limited number of casualties that have been attributed to chemical agents use in Syria, when conventional weapons can just as easily produce casualties of the same magnitude—without proffering an excuse to Western countries to launch air strikes?

Last month, the New York Times’ Rick Gladstone reported on a study which “found evidence of crudely manufactured sarin, a nerve agent, delivered via an unguided projectile with a crude explosive charge — not the sort of munitions stockpiled by the Syrian military.” [9]

So, no, the Syrian military is not the only combatant capable of using chemical weapons in Syria. But unlike the rebels, it has no motive to do so, and compelling reasons not to.

I'm not taking the stance that it wasn't government factions, but I'm not for going in with guns blazing if there's a shadow of a doubt.

1. Adam Entous, Julian E. Barnes and Inti Landauro, “U.S. weighs plans to punish Assad”, The Wall Street Journal, August 22, 2013
2 Mark Landler, Mark Mazzetti and Alissa J. Rubin, “Obama officials weigh response to Syria assault”, The New York Times, August 22, 2013
3. Landler, Mazzetti and Rubin.
4. Entous, Barnes and Landauro.
5. Entous, Barnes and Landauro.
6. “Syria: chemical weapons with impunity”, The Guardian, August 22, 2013.
7. Margaret Coker and Christopher Rhoads, “Chemical agents reflect brutal tactics in Syria”, The Wall Street Journal, August 22, 2013
8. Statement by Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategic Communications Ben Rhodes on Syrian Chemical Weapons Use, June 13, 2013, http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/06/13/statement-deputy-national-security-advisor-strategic-communications-ben-
9. Rick Gladstone, “Russia says study suggests Syria rebels used sarin”, The New York Times, July 9, 2013

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 3:22:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thank you for a measured, calm accurate analysis.

The far too hasty reactions from Western leaders and media are a cause for concern. That Western fingers pointing at Assad coincides with the West's political goal of regime change in Syria ought to alert us to their underlying motive - an excuse for yet Western military adventure/intervention into the Arab world with the goal of expediting regime change in Iran. An adventure unwanted by the West's people, by Arabs, by just about everyone who doesn't have an agenda.

I believe you are correct to point out that chemical weapons could have been used by either side, though only side has anything to gain by using such dreadful weapons. The Assad regime did itself no favors by dragging its feet on granting to the UN investigation team. Assad's forces have gradually been gaining an upper hand in the fighting - due in no small measure to Hezbollah's contribution. With the military tide turning in his favour, Assad has nothing to gain and every thing to lose by giving his Western opponents the perfect excuse to intervene on the opposition's side through the use of chemical weapons. For Assad's Islamist opposition, the reverse applies. As their situation becomes more desperate, raising the stakes by resorting to extreme measures such as chemical weapons makes more sense to them.

The opposition is dominated by the AQ-allied Al Nusra Front, armed and funded by US allies Qatar and Saudi Arabia, and trained by an odd mix of US, UK and Israeli special forces. I find impossible to believe that this is happening without Washington's approval. Americans might like to question why this is so, and why their Govt, ostensibly at war with AQ, is in bed with AQ allies, their arms suppliers and financial backers.

The glue that holds this unlikely alliance together is shared desire to defeat (and thereby expedite regime change in) Iran, one of Assad's major international supporters. Both Qatar and Saudi Arabia have sizable restive Shia populations and Sunni tyrannical absolute monarchies ruling them. These Sunni elites fear their populations and Iranian influence over them. Defeating Iranian ally Assad would greatly strengthen these despots grip over their unhappy populations. The US and Israel are running an undeclared war against Iran, supposedly over Iran's alleged nuclear weapons program. The Israelis have already intervened militarily several times and are poised to do so again. For them, Assad's defeat would be a major victory, as well as a blow against Hezbollah, a matter that ranks high on their agenda.

So while outside powers and interests cynically use their country to fight out their dreams of regional domination, the Syrian people continue to die in their tens of thousands, and flee as refugees in their millions. The last thing Syrians need is more external interference, they're already paying the price for such interference with their lives, shattered homes and ruined homeland.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/26/2013 3:32:51 AM >


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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 3:37:22 AM   
Politesub53


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Its absurd to suggest the rebels shelled their own positions with nerve gas. If Assad truly thought that was the case, he would have let in the UN Monitors in a heartbeat.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:13:34 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Its absurd to suggest the rebels shelled their own positions with nerve gas. If Assad truly thought that was the case, he would have let in the UN Monitors in a heartbeat.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. But, in situations like this, I find it helpful to ask 'who gains?' I'm unable to see how Assad could gain anything from using chemical weapons against an opponent he is already defeating using conventional arms. I could be overlooking something - in which case I would appreciate you pointing out what exactly I am missing. I have already noted that: " The Assad regime did itself no favors by dragging its feet on granting [access to] to the UN investigation team".

In the annals of warfare, committing an atrocity against one's own side, with the express hope of getting one's opponent blamed for the atrocity is neither unknown nor implausible. Indeed, far from it. Neither is committing a needless atrocity even when it runs directly counter to a side's interests.

I don't profess to know what happened. But I can work out whose interests would be furthered by using chemical weapons.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/26/2013 4:21:43 AM >


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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:21:45 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


For the Syrian government, however, the calculus is entirely different. Using chemical weapons would simply hand the United States a pretext to more muscularly intervene in Syria’s internal affairs. Since this is decidedly against Damascus’s interests, we should be skeptical of any claim that the Syrian government is defying Obama’s red line.


Conspiracy theories abound on this subject, apparently, while Occam's Razor gets buried deeper and deeper. But does it all really matter, in the end? It now seems beyond doubt that chemical weapons were used. The Syrian regime is either guilty of evil intent, or it's guilty of being out of control to an extent that the conflict there has become a worryingly-raised threat to the rest of the world. Given the purported ties of either side in this conflict - say, Hezbollah and Iran in the case of Assad, or Al Quaeda in the case of the rebels . . . nup. I wouldn't blame those in the international community for believing it's now time to hose down this particular bonfire.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:27:40 AM   
Politesub53


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All fair points Tweakable. Given the rebels are made up of several groups with different agendas, its just possible you may be right. I still think its absurd though, and yes, I am contradicting myself to a degree.

Assad had allowed the UN Inspectors in weeks ago to look at previous attacks. If he had allowed them in five days ago, they could possibly have found evidence of how the attack was carried out. Shell fragments etc could have been an important clue, as that seems to unquestionably be how the nerve agents were delivered.

America HAS to say they are unsure of what actually took place, as Obama has drawn a red line which looks to have been crossed. To say they are sure Assad carried out the attacks and then not act makes the US look weak.

Updated ten minutes ago on the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23838900

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:27:53 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


For the Syrian government, however, the calculus is entirely different. Using chemical weapons would simply hand the United States a pretext to more muscularly intervene in Syria’s internal affairs. Since this is decidedly against Damascus’s interests, we should be skeptical of any claim that the Syrian government is defying Obama’s red line.


Conspiracy theories abound on this subject, apparently, while Occam's Razor gets buried deeper and deeper. But does it all really matter, in the end? It now seems beyond doubt that chemical weapons were used. The Syrian regime is either guilty of evil intent, or it's guilty of being out of control to an extent that the conflict there has become a worryingly-raised threat to the rest of the world. Given the purported ties of either side in this conflict - say, Hezbollah and Iran in the case of Assad, or Al Quaeda in the case of the rebels . . . nup. I wouldn't blame those in the international community for believing it's now time to hose down this particular bonfire.

This is a valid argument IMHO.

Unfortunately the international community is already involved. Up to their necks on one side or the other. So what form might this intervention take? Who doesn't have an iron in the fire? Under what auspices could successful intervention take place?

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:30:04 AM   
Politesub53


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FR........ As I said before, nothing less than full UN concensus will solve the issue.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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