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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:17:13 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We should do nothing is Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boards unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.
Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!
Butch

How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?

You're blaming the US not stopping Hitler before 1941 for the millions of deaths in WWII?!?!?!?
Taking that fucked up look, we could argue that damn near any head of state *could be* the next Hitler. Better go off 'em now before millions die. Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?
You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.
Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....

After 9/1/39 it was clear we would be involved, in fact we were involved due to the Germans sub warfare in the Atlantic. If we had actually gotten fully involved 2 years earlier we could have likely prevented many millions of deaths.


Regardless, it still wasn't *our* fault. This is the bullshit I can't stand. Hitler and the Nazi party killed a shitload of people, and you're blaming the US because we didn't intervene earlier?!?!? WTF?!?

And, to reiterate: Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?
You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.
Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....

I'm blaming no one. I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives. George Santayana had something to say on the matter.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:27:31 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm blaming no one.

I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives.


Not blaming anyone, but (our) isolationism cost millions of lives. How is it that you aren't blaming someone there?




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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:30:49 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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Status: offline 		Holy fuck. Now I really have seen it all, even if it has to be quoted for that to happen. Just walk away.




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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:45:25 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm blaming no one.

I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives.


Not blaming anyone, but (our) isolationism cost millions of lives. How is it that you aren't blaming someone there?




I'm criticizing a political/philosophical position not anyone who holds/held that position.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:58:27 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm blaming no one.
I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives.

Not blaming anyone, but (our) isolationism cost millions of lives. How is it that you aren't blaming someone there?

I'm criticizing a political/philosophical position not anyone who holds/held that position.


Who said: "How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?" ("We" being the USA.)

Millions died BECAUSE we followed this policy in 1939.

Nope. Not blaming anyone at all. Nope. Not at all.



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 7:20:21 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I'm blaming no one.
I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives.

Not blaming anyone, but (our) isolationism cost millions of lives. How is it that you aren't blaming someone there?

I'm criticizing a political/philosophical position not anyone who holds/held that position.


Who said: "How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?" ("We" being the USA.)

Millions died BECAUSE we followed this policy in 1939.

Nope. Not blaming anyone at all. Nope. Not at all.



How many different ways do I need to say it? I'm not criticizing isolationists, I'm criticizing isolationism.

If you say "I don't like socialism" is that an attack on socialists?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 7:22:18 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
How many different ways do I need to say it? I'm not criticizing isolationists, I'm criticizing isolationism.


Three.


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 7:53:09 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

One of 'them' is posting on this thread, Butch. Those standard 'us' and 'them' categories can be awkward at times. Just saying.


I am speaking from the perspective of an American... and just an opinion... I would be less than sincere in my opinion if I altered it depending on who is reading it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/27/2013 8:30:51 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 7:55:11 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Unless I am mistaken we are talking civil war... not aggression between nations as was the case with Hitler... there is no comparison between these two situations.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 8:07:03 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

You dont get it Butch...... The WEST has to be seen to be strong over the use of chemical weapons. Obama said there was a red line, and unlike Bush he is waiting for proof.


Here is what I get... without Russia...without the US... this civil war would have already been settled and the people gassed would most likely still be alive. If the US had been serious in ending the war they should have put pressure on Russia to stop the aid to Assad... even if that meant economic sanctions. If Assad knew he would not have the military support of Russia even with the support of Iran he could not have won and would have negotiated.

Now here we are years into a bloodbath... partly our fault. We have backed ourselves into a corner and must now give support to terrorists against terrorists. Hell we don't even know for sure who used the chemical agents.

Right now what we should be doing is demanding action by the Arab league and the United Nations...not preparing to enter a civil war where neither side are our allies are will be in the future.

Our interference now will just increase the killing chemical weapons are not.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/27/2013 8:09:28 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 8:47:09 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, where is the hue and cry from the right for war? isnt this about the 7th or 8th excuse that w and co used to go into Iraq after all the others were found to be knowing lies?

Where are our patriotic americans, fucking us here at home on social security, jobs, healthcare, but the vanguard for american freedom in the gassed countries?



Wow.... do you support the United States being the world's police or do you not?

Are you supporting a full scale attack by United States Forces on Syria?

Does it matter to you that there is no Congressional approval (President Bush had that.) nor is their a UN mandate (He had that too.)?

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 10:40:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		It seems pretty clear that there has been an attack by one side using chemical weapons. While Western politicians have already pointed the finger at the most likely suspect, no proof has yet been advanced publicly, and the UN investigation team has barely begun its investigation. The media is talking it up for all its worth, with many arm chair generals calling for an immediate response.

Once culpability is established a firm response is mandatory. It is totally unacceptable for any one to use such ghastly weapons in today's world. The use of chemical weapons in a largely civilian area is a crime against humanity. Regardless of how long it may take, those responsible must be called to account for their actions before the International Court, and if found guilty dealt with severely. In the interim, a military response against the guilty party may be the only option available.

Until culpability is established, caution is the best policy IMHO. Any reaction must await the findings of the UN investigation team, and any response must be put to the UN Security Council before it is launched. Action approved by the UN is far less likely to inflame intemperate reactions. It's difficult to see vetoes being used if the UN can find proof that either Assad or the Opposition carried out the attack. It is important to observe the letter and the spirit of international law if this horror is to be dealt with in a satisfactory manner.

If their current rhetoric is to be believed, it seems unlikely that Western leaders are prepared to wait for these events to unfold. Any response that pre-empts the UN investigation will have incalculable consequences. It is possible that other the Shia nations - Iran Iran Lebanon* - will become involved, Israel will be attacked in retaliation, and events could quickly spiral out of control.


* "Speaking to an Arabic-language radio station operated by the United States, Syria's Deputy Information Minister Halaf Al-Maftah said that Israel would face not only Syria in the event that the US, Britain and France attempted to unseat Bashar al-Assad. A coalition consisting of Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria would respond to any attack against Assad with a response against Israel. In addition, terrorist groups in Syria and Lebanon would attack Israel with full force. Al-Maftah added that Syria has “strategic weapons” that it would use in its attack on Israel. He did not specify what those weapons were."
Syrian Information Minister Al-Muftah quoted in "Israel National News" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article35984.htm

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/27/2013 10:50:55 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 12:21:24 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, where is the hue and cry from the right for war? isnt this about the 7th or 8th excuse that w and co used to go into Iraq after all the others were found to be knowing lies?

Where are our patriotic americans, fucking us here at home on social security, jobs, healthcare, but the vanguard for american freedom in the gassed countries?



Wow.... do you support the United States being the world's police or do you not?

Are you supporting a full scale attack by United States Forces on Syria?

Does it matter to you that there is no Congressional approval (President Bush had that.) nor is their a UN mandate (He had that too.)?

W claimed Iraq had WMD and might turn them over to terrorists. He knew it was alie or at the least he should have.
In this case we know Syria does have WMD and the Syrian government is very friendly with terrorist groups who would use those weapons.

If an invasion and nearly 10 year occupation would have been justified if Iraq had had WMD then certainly some cruise missile strikes and precision bombings are justified in the case of Syria.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 3:23:33 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Lest we forget, both sides are very friendly with terrorist groups, some are Sunni on the one hand, or Shiite on the other.

Butch, there is no evidence that this war would have ended already without US or Russian interference, much of the middle east is backing one side or the other.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 5:58:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Once culpability is established a firm response is mandatory. It is totally unacceptable for any one to use such ghastly weapons in today's world. The use of chemical weapons in a largely civilian area is a crime against humanity. Regardless of how long it may take, those responsible must be called to account for their actions before the International Court, and if found guilty dealt with severely. In the interim, a military response against the guilty party may be the only option available.
Until culpability is established, caution is the best policy IMHO. Any reaction must await the findings of the UN investigation team, and any response must be put to the UN Security Council before it is launched. Action approved by the UN is far less likely to inflame intemperate reactions. It's difficult to see vetoes being used if the UN can find proof that either Assad or the Opposition carried out the attack. It is important to observe the letter and the spirit of international law if this horror is to be dealt with in a satisfactory manner.


This.

Now, let's set the assumption (for the sake of argument), that it wasn't Assad or his forces that used the chemical weapons. Let's set the assumption that it was one of the rebels that did this in an effort to bring the US and other outside nations into the conflict. The rebels include a variety of groups, any of which could have used the chem. weapons without the knowledge of the rest. What, then? Taking down the rebels wouldn't be meting out justice properly. That would be punishing all the rebel groups for the, potentially, actions of just one group.

Whatever action is taken by external countries, it has to be seen for the whole of what it is. If we are going to take down Assad, we have to understand that this is, in effect, supporting the rebel groups. If we are going to take down the rebels, this is, in effect, supporting Assad.

This is a fucked up situation.


_____________________________

What I support:

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 6:15:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Once culpability is established a firm response is mandatory. It is totally unacceptable for any one to use such ghastly weapons in today's world. The use of chemical weapons in a largely civilian area is a crime against humanity. Regardless of how long it may take, those responsible must be called to account for their actions before the International Court, and if found guilty dealt with severely. In the interim, a military response against the guilty party may be the only option available.

I don't understand how culpability can be established unless there is some chemical signature that is found as is alleged for homemade bombs.

War is a crime against humanity.

Sanctions are a crime against humanity.

The West should stay out of this.

ETA: Ahhh . . . intercepted phone calls. NM

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/28/2013 6:42:28 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 6:29:37 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

IMO, Assad needs ousted more than Qaddafi (or however it's spelled) did.

How is this statement supported by "what I support:"?
What conservative interpretation of the cobstitution calls on us to change the government of another soverign nation?
How does involving ourselves in the mid-east contribute to a limited government?

_____________________________

What I support:



A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution

Personal Responsibility

Help for the truly needy

Limited Government

Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 6:32:11 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

One of the given reasons for going into Iraq to depose Hussein was that he gassed his own citizens. IMO, that's worse than gassing an enemy combatant.
Are they any more or less dead?
quote:

I think he gassed his own partly to experiment, but that subject selection was politically done.

Wouldn't any other course of action be a wast of resources?

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 6:33:36 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

IMO, Assad needs ousted more than Qaddafi (or however it's spelled) did.

How is this statement supported by "what I support:"?
What conservative interpretation of the cobstitution calls on us to change the government of another soverign nation?
How does involving ourselves in the mid-east contribute to a limited government?

_____________________________

What I support:



A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution

Personal Responsibility

Help for the truly needy

Limited Government

Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)


Help for the truly needy?

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/28/2013 6:37:55 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

I'm blaming no one. I'm just pointing out that isolationism in 1939 cost millions of lives.


That would be an unsubstantiated opinion
quote:

George Santayana had something to say on the matter.


Smedley butler had something to say on the matter

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 100
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