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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 4:33:56 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Its absurd to suggest the rebels shelled their own positions with nerve gas. If Assad truly thought that was the case, he would have let in the UN Monitors in a heartbeat.

Ordinarily I would agree with you. But, in situations like this, I find it helpful to ask 'who gains?' I'm unable to see how Assad could gain anything from using chemical weapons against an opponent he is already defeating using conventional arms. I could be overlooking something - in which case I would appreciate you pointing out what exactly I am missing. I have already noted that: " The Assad regime did itself no favors by dragging its feet on granting [access to] to the UN investigation team".

In the annals of warfare, committing an atrocity against one's own side, with the express hope of getting one's opponent blamed for the atrocity is neither unknown nor implausible. Indeed, far from it. Neither is committing a needless atrocity even when it runs directly counter to a side's interests.

I don't profess to know what happened. But I can work out whose interests would be furthered by using chemical weapons.


Assad would gain an awful lot if the international community did nothing - say, on the basis that widespread respectability was gained for the idea that the rebels did the bombing in order to gain sympathy from the international community. There's still more than a chance that the rebels could win in Syria and, if so, the lives of Assad and his supporters would most likely be forfeit.

But even if the rebels didn't win this present civil war, the Assad regime would still have to settle in for a long, long period of discontent that's likely to be violent, and that frequently. Assad's only tried-and-trusted remedy so far has been to frighten the hell out of dissenters.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 5:33:29 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Yes. Both short term and long term prognoses for Syrians look particularly bleak. There's no joy in seeing a butcher of Assad's proportions emerging victorious. And even less in seeing fanatical theocrats with Neanderthal mindsets winning.

If there was a form that a successful foreign intervention could take, I'd advocate adopting it. But I can't see one. The US, the UK, France and Russia are already too compromised. Of Syria's neighbours - Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, Jordan - the less said the better.

I suspect Politesub is correct when he states that only the UN can provide an acceptable umbrella for foreign intervention. UN intervention pre-supposes some level of Security Council consensus - can any one see that happening on this issue?

My heart goes out to the poor Syrian people.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/26/2013 5:34:19 AM >

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 10:06:22 AM   
papassion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They were hot to go in, based on falsified intelligence by W.

Why didn't Issa investigate that.

People with no memory are stupid, I think, unless it is alzheimers like St. Wrinklemeat, then they are ignorant.


Are you saying Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are clueless puppets who don't have their own reliable "confidential" sources? I guess that explanation would fit your version of events.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/26/2013 10:10:43 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		NO, I am saying that the clueless puppets who lied to the American people, also lied to the Legislature, and no, they do not have sources like that, it is called "against the law".


And the clueless nutsuckers who were puppeted by the W admin sure jumped in their with both feet.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/26/2013 10:11:38 AM >

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 10:39:45 AM   
papassion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

NO, I am saying that the clueless puppets who lied to the American people, also lied to the Legislature, and no, they do not have sources like that, it is called "against the law".


And the clueless nutsuckers who were puppeted by the W admin sure jumped in their with both feet.


Oh, I see, in your world, a politician should just shut up and accept what shit is being fed. Don't make any effort to check the accuracy what you've been fed with the resources you've developed in decades of public service. This may come as a severe shock to you, but even lowly Army personell and contractors have access to our most sensitive information. (you only know the ones who got caught) And you don't think a former First Lady with all her contacts and friends, only knows what she is told by the legislatures? You don't get to the level Kerry and Clinton got by being dumb and and accepting everything you are told.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 10:53:34 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Look at the multitude of republicans who eat the shit they are fed, constantly and without regard to reality, and repeat it over and over even when they are confronted with a multitude of facts, studies, researchers and experts who tell them they are plain out stupid and wrong.

When the president of the united states hands you a doctored CIA document, you do not know it is doctored.

And you don't know low level republican contractors if you are John Kerry or Hillary Clinton.


And would that have defeated the AUMF if they had voted against?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/27/2013 10:54:54 AM >

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 12:29:22 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

Is there any hope for the long suffering Syrian people?


Yes there is... let you Australians take care of it. I'm sure if you try real hard you can do something besides complain about others actions.

Butch

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 12:34:07 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		We should do nothing in Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boarders unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.

Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/27/2013 1:12:52 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 12:41:32 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We should do nothing is Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boards unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.

Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!

Butch

How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 12:44:47 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Syria is no Germany...Germany did threaten out existence by declaring war on us. Let Syria declare war on us and we will have the moral right to defend ourselves. Otherwise stay out of it... How many lives have we taken or caused to be lost with our policy of world policeman and intervention in others affairs because of economic policies? Far more than if we had just not interfered and let the nations affected solve the issues.

I don't care how ineffective organizations such as the Arab League or United Nations are it is still their place to act not ours. When these Arab uprisings get bad enough to affect the League members they will be forced to act. It is in their interest and their place to act not ours.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/27/2013 12:52:16 PM >

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 1:06:26 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We must learn that civil wars cannot be settled by outside military might. Yes we may temporarily force a cessation of violence...but only for awhile and then it will continue...with aid to both sides that will do nothing but magnify the deaths. If we had not given arms to the rebels or the Russians not supported Assad.. this damn civil war would have most likely been over a year ago!! The casualties would have been much less and the destruction of cities and infrastructure would have been limited. Now no matter who wins there will be suffering, misery, and poverty for decades.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 1:11:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If we had not supported Israel or stopped Israel from defeating their Arab aggressors completely there would be no need to worry about Iran's nuclear program. Their would not be an aggressive Iran because of an Israel domination or if Israel had been defeated there would be no need for Iran to produce an atomic bomb. We just keep making enemies by not minding our own business.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 1:12:53 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We should do nothing is Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boards unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.
Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!
Butch

How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?


You're blaming the US not stopping Hitler before 1941 for the millions of deaths in WWII?!?!?!?

Taking that fucked up look, we could argue that damn near any head of state *could be* the next Hitler. Better go off 'em now before millions die. Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?

You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.

Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....


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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 1:14:12 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We must learn that civil wars cannot be settled by outside military might.

Good luck with that: if the messes previous administrations stirred up in Korea, Vietnam and Bosnia didn't make that point clear, nothing ever will.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 2:32:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Don't forget Libya... Afghanistan...Iraq... Palestine...Israel...Somalia...hell even Pakistan to go along with those mentioned. There is no peace anywhere the US has intervened.

I am not saying we are the cause of strife...and I'm not saying we did not go with good intentions....But I am saying it was wrong to do so and the results prove it. We should let them kill each other until their blood lust has run its course... Then help them if we feel it is right to do so.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/27/2013 2:59:48 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 3:06:26 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We should let them kill each other until their blood lust has run its course... Then help them if we feel it is right to do so.


One of 'them' is posting on this thread, Butch. Those standard 'us' and 'them' categories can be awkward at times. Just saying.


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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 3:53:18 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Is there any hope for the long suffering Syrian people?


Yes there is... let you Australians take care of it. I'm sure if you try real hard you can do something besides complain about others actions.

Butch


You dont get it Butch...... The WEST has to be seen to be strong over the use of chemical weapons. Obama said there was a red line, and unlike Bush he is waiting for proof.

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RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 4:30:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We should do nothing is Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boards unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.
Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!
Butch

How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?


You're blaming the US not stopping Hitler before 1941 for the millions of deaths in WWII?!?!?!?

Taking that fucked up look, we could argue that damn near any head of state *could be* the next Hitler. Better go off 'em now before millions die. Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?

You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.

Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....


After 9/1/39 it was clear we would be involved, in fact we were involved due to the Germans sub warfare in the Atlantic. If we had actually gotten fully involved 2 years earlier we could have likely prevented many millions of deaths.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:01:19 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Then help them if we feel it is right to do so.


Butch, we haven't ever gone in when we didn't feel it was right to help one side or the other. That sort of subjective definition leads us down the road we have traveled, and continue to travel.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Chemical weapons used in Syria - 8/27/2013 6:03:52 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We should do nothing is Syria...we should do nothing in Egypt...we should do nothing anywhere outside our boards unless they threaten our way of life. They have every right to fight and die and organize their own nations according to their own religion and law... Even if this means deaths...We have no business telling them what to do or trying to change their way of life and customs.
Saving a few thousand now will most likely only kill tens of thousand later...have we not learned our lesson yet!
Butch

How many millions died because we followed this policy in 1939?

You're blaming the US not stopping Hitler before 1941 for the millions of deaths in WWII?!?!?!?
Taking that fucked up look, we could argue that damn near any head of state *could be* the next Hitler. Better go off 'em now before millions die. Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?
You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.
Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....

After 9/1/39 it was clear we would be involved, in fact we were involved due to the Germans sub warfare in the Atlantic. If we had actually gotten fully involved 2 years earlier we could have likely prevented many millions of deaths.


Regardless, it still wasn't *our* fault. This is the bullshit I can't stand. Hitler and the Nazi party killed a shitload of people, and you're blaming the US because we didn't intervene earlier?!?!? WTF?!?

And, to reiterate: Hitler and the Nazi's left their borders to take over other countries. Is Assad doing the same? Did Assad *start* the hostilities, or was this an uprising of the people (a la the Arab Spring)?
You jumped the shark, Ken. You just made damn near anything else you write in this thread irrelevant.
Fucking Hitler/Nazi comparisons... FFS....

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 80
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