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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:14:36 AM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TolerableCruelty

quote:

Edited to add..........MrrPete.... having a possible future Dom or Master watching me isn't gonna mke a damn bit of difference in how I treat others... it's how I treat them they're going to look at. People contact me more out of me showing my proper manners... not respect.


I would have to disagree...
Myself and most of the Dominants I know would not want someone that has no respect or courtesy for others. You wouldn't even get a second glance, and be chalked up to just another "sam". I've often given the same advice that Pete put forth.... because its the truth.

well wishes,
T.R.


LOL @ Sam......because someone disagrees... they're sam... or some other little name that is used.. kewl.. no problem... that's why I'm happy in the way things are in my life today..(subject to change  tomorrow... depending on how I look at it)...As long as I show that I have manners... that's more important... than respect.... as stated by many others.... respect is earned... not given... manners.. are given...


_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:20:35 AM   
Caretakr


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I think I'm more clear on the differences about courtesy and respect after this,but as far as sams?

Well, an asshole is just an asshole-no matter which side of the whip you inhabit.

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:22:22 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: TolerableCruelty

quote:

Edited to add..........MrrPete.... having a possible future Dom or Master watching me isn't gonna mke a damn bit of difference in how I treat others... it's how I treat them they're going to look at. People contact me more out of me showing my proper manners... not respect.


I would have to disagree...
Myself and most of the Dominants I know would not want someone that has no respect or courtesy for others. You wouldn't even get a second glance, and be chalked up to just another "sam". I've often given the same advice that Pete put forth.... because its the truth.

well wishes,
T.R.


LOL @ Sam......because someone disagrees... they're sam... or some other little name that is used.. kewl.. no problem... that's why I'm happy in the way things are in my life today..(subject to change  tomorrow... depending on how I look at it)...As long as I show that I have manners... that's more important... than respect.... as stated by many others.... respect is earned... not given... manners.. are given...


LOL...hey true...
I like that its always the s-types that get the names - what do you call a smart assed dom?
Now thats just S.A.D
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:25:14 AM   
Kashan


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This is very complicated, because there are so many out there claiming to be a Master and demnding respect, but treating subs like garbage. Then when a real Dom comes along, and we ignore him as just another one of the bad Doms, we are told we are "not a true sub" or disrespectful. I get there are disrespectful subs, but there are disrespectful Doms as well. Being online makes it much more difficult for the lack of visual cues. You cannot tell when someone is lying or being sincere as well as when you are looking at them speaking to you. I think we should take a cue from the other animals on the planet. Give respect and you'll get it. Sometimes you have to forgive the damaged ones.

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:30:38 AM   
Caretakr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kashan

This is very complicated, because there are so many out there claiming to be a Master and demnding respect, but treating subs like garbage. Then when a real Dom comes along, and we ignore him as just another one of the bad Doms, we are told we are "not a true sub" or disrespectful. I get there are disrespectful subs, but there are disrespectful Doms as well. Being online makes it much more difficult for the lack of visual cues. You cannot tell when someone is lying or being sincere as well as when you are looking at them speaking to you. I think we should take a cue from the other animals on the planet. Give respect and you'll get it. Sometimes you have to forgive the damaged ones.


Now there's a radical concept-give someone you just met the benfit of common courtesy-until they prove they don't deserve it.

(in reply to Kashan)
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:31:23 AM   
vield


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This is an interesting discussion of one of many recurring questions which re-inforce our need to state our positions clearly and honestly, if we wish the same from others.
In my point of view, everyone who communicates with me is entitled to politeness, & courtesy unless they display that they are not giving that (so do not deserve it). This applies to all, whether sub, slave, dom, switch, vanilla, female, male other,or whatever is their diversity.
If a person shares mutual courtesy with me we may develop mutual respect.
Once mutual respect exists, it is possible mutual trust may grow.
It is necessary for me to know mutual trust is in place for any serious connection to be formed. In the BD/SM scene I highly recommend assuring this before one puts oneself in a postion of another's power.
OK, simple public play or training in safe company is possible with a more casual connection, but for anything deep to develop I need mutual trust.
There are role play scenes and groups and on line sites where everyone declares themself sub or dom and agrees to use terms like sir/ma'am etc. in addressing each other. Using such terms (dom or sub) has nothing to do with mutual respect, it is just compliance with group rules.
As always these are My thoughts and your mileage may vary.
vield

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:34:36 AM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows


LOL...hey true...
I like that its always the s-types that get the names - what do you call a smart assed dom?
Now thats just S.A.D
Peace and Rapture



LOL... now there's something I never actually thought about.. but I see it clearer now...

Kashan... sad but true... as it's been said.. you gotta get past the bad apples to find that prize one... but while tossing the bad ones aside... you might accidently by pass a prize as well. But they are chances we take. But I always figured... the one that got over looked... is the one that some how sneaks back in the barrel for a second look...


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:44:03 AM   
Caretakr


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Yanno,one of the sad things is a serious guy trying to meet an interesting woman, and shes had such a bad day with horny net geeks, that you get tagged as one too.

Had this happen to me once, even though I was very respectful. She was so totally rude and dismissive that I just threw up my hands and walked away..............She contacted me later on, after reading a lot of my posts on another site, said she liked the way I thought- I don't think she even remembered speaking with me previously.

But I certainly remembered speaking to HER-and she had showed me a side of her personality that I found unnapealing to the point of revulsion. And I simply reminded her of this-and why I thought we would get on poorly together. I'd never be able to get the contempt she had showed me out of my mind.

So ladies? Think about this the next time you write off some person as a "wannanbe hng"  You might just be sending a REAL good Master who could offer you a LOT down the road.

And not even know it. Some chances only come once.

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 6/30/2006 8:49:37 AM >

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:50:17 AM   
truesub4u


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Caretkr.......Doms need to remind themselves of the very same thing. 

_____________________________

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:52:41 AM   
Caretakr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

Caretkr.......Doms need to remind themselves of the very same thing. 


I do, every time someone writes me here, or asks me a question in the forums. Compassion is a strength-not a weakness.

(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:52:42 AM   
mnottertail


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While we are on a song kick, Caretakr.............

Train, Drops of Jupiter.

...and did you miss me while you were looking for yourself out there?...

is going to happen often under such undesirable circumstances

Been there and did your story a few times myself.

Pretty picture, text on the order of  I am not a doormat.  No one liners.  Eat me.

Well, WTF are you going to do but a one-liner?  Try to find out if there is a sense of humor in there; or cause you like the looks, try and chop a hole in the mountain to get a foothold to see if there is any compatibility. 

Not down on your knees, not you're something of a cunt ain't ya? 

But something that if you met in a queue or were standing next to each other on a subway  might get a show of interest or start a conversation.

Beats the shit outta me............

Ron



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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 8:54:20 AM   
Caretakr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

While we are on a song kick, Caretakr.............

Train, Drops of Jupiter.

...and did you miss me while you were looking for yourself out there?...

is going to happen often under such undesirable circumstances

Been there and did your story a few times myself.

Pretty picture, text on the order of  I am not a doormat.  No one liners.  Eat me.

Well, WTF are you going to do but a one-liner?  Try to find out if there is a sense of humor in there; or cause you like the looks, try and chop a hole in the mountain to get a foothold to see if there is any compatibility. 

Not down on your knees, not you're something of a cunt ain't ya? 

But something that if you met in a queue or were standing next to each other on a subway  might get a show of interest or start a conversation.

Beats the shit outta me............

Ron




Jokes are more fun......

What did the meterosexual top say to the bottom?

"On your knees bitch!"

"please?"

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 9:19:05 AM   
Vendaval


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I view this not just as a BDSM situation but as a situation within
the larger culture of the USA. 
There are definate regional, cultural, and class differences within the USA. 
The South and the Midwest tend to be more old fashioned and mannerly. 
The East Coast is known for being very direct and the West Coast for being laid back. 
The other English speaking lands have their own variables and idiosyncrasies.
 
What bothers Me is the lack of basic courtsey, regardless of social
status.  "Please", "excuse me", "thank you", "paron me", "may I",
opening doors for people carrying children and packages, helping
an older person cross the street are the social niceties that keep
civilization, well, civilized.
 
Within the Lifestyle, I do agree that the Net has been both a blessing
in the availability of information and a curse in that anyone can don any title
of their choosing and play at being king/queen of the universe. 
When the lack of courtsey dissolves into full fledged flame
wars, that shows a basic failure of communication.  And if the same
participants were placed face to face on a football field or hockey rink,
the posturing would either disappear or they would get their
asses kicked.
 
IMHO,
 
Vendaval
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 9:21:36 AM   
TolerableCruelty


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quote:

Now there's a radical concept-give someone you just met the benfit of common courtesy-until they prove they don't deserve it.


Which is exactly what I've said in these forums before when the topic of respect has come up.... I try and give it to all, but its easily lost... and damn hard for them to earn back once they lose it.

As far as Myself... I'm Me... take it or leave it... I know I can come across as an asshole, and I'm not looking for anyone elses respect or validation....

Common courtesy is always appreciated, though.

well wishes,
T.R.

_____________________________

Never explain~~Your friends do not need it, and your enemies will not believe you

I'm sorry if I've offended you.... but maybe you needed to be offended

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 11:07:54 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feistykitten

i recently recieved an email from a man that i am coming to admire from afar ....he took the time to read my journal entries then asked me to post a particular question i had in it here in the forums.....so here it goes:

i guess my question here tonight is simply.....

....."what happened to the time where even token respect was afforded Doms/Dommes known or not, and what happened to this community as a whole when one sits there in judgement of another because their views do not conform with those of others??  wasnt  this life at one time based on mutual respect for such diversity?  and if you dont like or agree with someones opinions and views then why respond to them why not just move on and let bygones be bygones whether you believe they are a real Dom/Domme or not."

LA already answered this very well, that time never actually existed.  Its an urban myth that is, as she noted, about as old as civilization itself.  That said, here's some food for thought.

We all sit in judgement of others, we do it everyday.  We do it when we decide who to do business with, how to respond to someone who just asked for a donation to charity, how to react to an unknown caller on the phone, and many other situations.  We make those judgements based sometimes on very foolish things without much thought.  But as to the question of judging others kinks I would ask two questions.  First, is the judgement being made an informed one?  That is is the person making the judgement doing so on some rational basis or no?  There is nothing wrong with making an informed decision, its a good habit to have.  You get as much information as you can and you make the best choice you can, that's a useful habit to have.  Secondly, is the person making the judgment doing so as a personal attack or are they simply making a judgment about whether they believe something is right or wrong?  The people we most often think of as being "judgemental" often turn those judgements into personal attacks.  Saying you think, for example, that scat play is wrong is a judgment.  Saying you think anyone who engages in scat play is, for example,  a sick, demented retard is being judgemental.  Now if you think you scat play, again for example, is wrong and you can list some rational reasons why, you've made an informed judgement, which is a good thing.  And for the bonus round, is the person making the judgement willing to change their mind if they discover their choice was wrong?  People we think of as "judgemental" are typically so closed minded they will never change their mind about what they believe, regardless of facts.  Someone making a judgement however is making a choice based on what they know, if they are reasonable and learn new things they didn't know, then they are willing to change their mind.  But you'll have to convince them and that means offering a rational explanation of your own.

As a counter point, keep in mind that those who most often complain about "judgemental" people are those who are doing something they can't rationally defend and they don't like others saying its wrong.  Its like the smoker sitting in the non-smoking section of a resteraunt complaining about not being able to smoke.  They can't rationally defend their complaint, but they do it anyway.  There are always those who will selfishly be inclined to do as they please, and whom are continually annoyed by those of us with the audacity to disagree with what they do.  They want to do what they want to do, but they can't come up with a rational reason for why we should accept it, yet they want our approval too.  You'll find that many current cries for respect for diversity come from just such individuals.



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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 11:32:01 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

One of the reasons that there's a lot less respect is the advent  of  the Internet.
The community has grown at such an exponential rate and the newcomers
don't take the time to educate themselves.

Here's the biggest reason for subs to show common courtesy [yes, Sir - no Sir]
to every person identifying themselves as Dominant. You never know when your
future Dominant is watching you and the way you treat others.

A sub that can handle an asshole Dom with politeness, courtesy and, yes, respect.
is a class act in my book. Anyone can respond in kind but it's the one that can control
themselves will earn the respect of OTHERS who may be watching.

If you want friends, be friendly.
If you want respect, be respectful

Several have raised the issue of the internet as being a part of the "decline" of respect.  Actually, what you see happening online isn't caused by the internet itself, its a symptom of a larger problem.

Politeness and etiquette are not natural forms of behavior, they're learned.  Children have to be taught to socialize with society, it does not come naturally (for those about to disagree, I would point out the simple example of a child having to be taught and disciplined to not make too much noice in a resteraunt or movie theatre).  Politeness and etiquette are both forms of self restraint, the ability to control your own impulses and urges.  Generally, there is utility in that, that is we do it because doing so is useful to us.  It may be useful because it helps us get what we want from others (a job, a date, etc.) or because it helps us avoid undesirable consequences (derision, hostility, etc. from others).  But in society today we've seen both that utility and those consequences mitigated, and so the value of etiquette, not suprisingly, is in decline through out society.  The internet only exasperates this because here, there are virtually no consequences to rude behavior and often very little utility to polite behavior, and so, again not surprisingly, rudeness abounds.  If anything, the internet is the handwriting on the wall for what society in general may become, provided we don't change the direction we are going in.

I choose Mr Pete's post to respond to for a particular reason however.  That being that it points out a specific utility to submissives for being polite, a reason that makes it useful and therefore desirable behavior.  T. R. later echoes the same thought and I'll add to the sentiment that I too will not give a submissive who seems rude and ill mannered a second thought.  I simply will not consider them for anything, not even friendship.  That's a rule I actually apply to everyone... I don't form friendships with rude people in general.

But I'll take it one step further and apply it to us domly types as well, its just as important for us to be polite and well mannered.  I've advised submissives in the past to observe the behavior of a dominant, and in particular how he or she treats people whom they don't really care about.  How someone treats a person that has nothing to really offer them says a lot about that persons real character.  So keep an eye on how they treat waiters, hostesses, janitors, and all those other people we so often dismiss without a second thought.  The dominant who is kind to them, will likely be kind to you (when no one is there to see).

There's also something else very "domly" about good manners in particular.  It shows self control.  A dominant who can keep their cool, control their temper, and remain polite in unpleasant situations is showing traits that are generally desirable in a dominant.  And oddly enough, those same traits are desirable in a submissive as well.

Sometimes we really are two sides of the same coin.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 11:32:32 AM   
feistykitten


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When i first entered this life, i was taught by a Man that i respected greatly.  He had very strict unwavering rules about his girls and how they presented themselves in public be it in real life or online.  He expected us to end every sentence with Sir or Maam to any one that presented themselves as a Dominant, and we were not to ever be confrontational either, we were always to present ourselves as ladies.  If we didnt agree with what was being said or done for what ever reason we politely excused ourselves and left. 
Albeit that was then and this is now,  and even tho i dont end every sentence with Sir or Maam,  i do try even when replying to outragous emails that i recieve be as polite and respectful as possible.......if you stop and think about it you can tell a person to go to hell or almost anything in a most polite manner......its never WHAT you say its HOW it is said.
Ones beliefs are only a myth if they are allowed to die and forgotten.

< Message edited by feistykitten -- 6/30/2006 11:43:47 AM >

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 11:50:15 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feistykitten

When i first entered this life, i was taught by a Man that i respected greatly.  He had very strict unwavering rules about his girls and how they presented themselves in public be it in real life or online.  He expected us to end every sentence with Sir or Maam to any one that presented themselves as a Dominant, and we were not to ever be confrontational either, we were always to present ourselves as ladies.  If we didnt agree with what was being said or done for what ever reason we politely excused ourselves and left. 
Albeit that was then and this is now,  and even tho i dont end every sentence with Sir or Maam,  i do try even when replying to outragous emails that i recieve be as polite and respectful as possible.......if you stop and think about it you can tell a person to go to hell or almost anything in a most polite manner......its never WHAT you say its HOW it is said.
Ones beliefs are only a myth if they are allowed to die.

I think you've misunderstood something.  Here's were we seem to have diverged.  In your reply you speak of your personal experience with one individual.  Whom, btw, sounds like he gave you a wonderful introduction.  However, that's just one individual and not an entire community.  The "time" and "community" too which I referred to as being a myth was that "community" in which nearly everyone was so respectful.  That simply never existed in BDSM.  There have been and still are such individuals, but never such a community.  That's not to say that the idea of such a community is a bad one, I think it would be a very good thing and something worth working towards.  But I also realize the reality that such individuals have always been the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.  Your beliefs (and indeed mine) are not a myth, but that "elder, kinder, more polite community/time" is indeed a myth.

I do very much agree that part of etiquette is in knowing how to say something, not what you say.  Or as we Irish say... the art of Irish diplomacy is being able to tell someone to go to hell, and have him look forward to the trip!

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 12:01:25 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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(I'm using fast reply for convenience here... .) The first mistake I see being made in the question asked during the OP is the assumption that Respect and Courtesy are interchangable.  These two things are not, never have been, and never will be the same.
 
Respect is an Emotion.  It is an internal, non physical, Learned emotion based on your individual perceptions of generally liking someone, holding them in high regard, considering them Noteworthy in their beliefs and actions, etc.  No one, regardless of how much they may rail against it, is capable of dictating someone else's emotional responces.  It either grows over time, or it doesn't, based on the actions of the one who Desires to Be Respected.  It matters less than nothing what title someone has - whether self appointed or gained through the consensus of their peers - they are still completely incapable of Sucessfully dictating the emotional responces of another.
 
Courtesy is a set of Actions.  It is the application of polite good manners within the context of the general society which forumlated the current standards of acceptable behavior.  It is the application of Consideration towards another strictly on the grounds of them being another human.  It is doing things like saying "please" and "thank you" when you expect someone to do something for you, or they have done something for you. 
 
Neither of these encompasses kissing someone's rump and agreeing with everything they do/say simply because they expect you to, or consider themselves to hold some exalted position.  Even more than 20 years ago, when I was first introduced to the concepts of BDSM, such was not the case.  I was never expected to exhibit an Emotional Responce to someone that I didn't know.  I Was expected to treat them with the same Actions that I would on the street, completely seperated from BDSM.
 
Mutual respect for diversity?  Not that I've ever been aware, except that it's the PC thing to do and has been commonly spouted since the advent of the internet.  I was involved in BDSM in various forms before chatrooms, before the plethora of websites, before internet dating venues. Those whom I knew in the community prior to the advent of such all agreed with each other.  Why? Because everything was still in the closet in the first place, and it's a common human "failing" to prefer the company of those who agree with us.  If you (generic) were to far removed from what the rest of your little group enjoyed, you didn't have enough in common with them to continue hanging around with each other.
 
Why respond when I disagree with someone's ideas, ideals, or opinions in a forum?  Because this IS a forum, intended for the exchange of ideas and opinions.  If they don't desire to face the potential for honest debate of the pros/cons of their opinion, why would they be exposing that view in a public venue?  To get a pat on the head and told how wonderful, grand, and perfect they are?  My existance on this planet  - and in a public debate venue - isn't to stroke the egos of those whom I do not know and will likely never meet.  Somehow, I doubt that anyone Else's existance within the scope of public forums entails something like that Either.
 
IB - while I can certainly understand your reference to a military line of thinking (understandable, since you spent many years in the military) it's a concept that I find difficult to reconcile with Modern BDSM.  I specify Modern because the advent of an open Kink/Fetish community (here in the US, at least) began with military personelle returning from overseas.  Things have significantly changed/grown since that point, though, and the generally military mindset no longer holds sway.  Many of us now don't particularly Like a military mindset. If we wanted to be Obligated to refer to various people by an honorific afforded by "rank", we would have joined the military, not gotten involved in kink.
 
Pete, TC, Discipline -  while I can understand your collective view, I don't agree with it.  See above what I mentioned about Emotion vs Action, and dictating someone's emotions.  Expecting a higher than normal level of Action, based on unearned Emotion, doesn't strike me as being particularly reasonable.  Confusing Action for Emotion - well - that's simply lack of understanding about differentiation. It can be rectified with a bit of education.

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Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: where has all the respect gone? - 6/30/2006 12:02:07 PM   
CrappyDom


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quote:

....."what happened to the time where even token respect was afforded Doms/Dommes known or not,


quote:

 what happened to this community as a whole when one sits there in judgement of another because their views do not conform with those of others?? 


quote:

wasnt  this life at one time based on mutual respect for such diversity? 


But you are doing exactly what you are railing against.  You are not being "accepting" of people who do something you don't like.

Not to mention the fantasy land time you mention didn't exist.  I am sure there were old gay men sitting in leather bars in 1949 bitching about the whole scene has gone to hell cause they didn't even have leather bars before the war and this whole "old guard" thing has just ruined the scene.

(in reply to feistykitten)
Profile   Post #: 60
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