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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 8:38:24 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
I would suggest that "traditional values" is what causes the majority of the misogyny and violence we see demonstrated and imitated in not just urban culture but in mainstream culture and music. When an estimated 1.3 million women a year experience domestic violence that is not a "ghetto" culture. It is very much a mainstream culture. The urban music is just brave enough to talk about their violence. While "traditional values" pretends its not happening in suburbia...

...Is it truly "rebellion" against social norms?......or are they actually just snatching the covers off and revealing our society's ugly, bloodstained truth?


Scholars seem to agree that's at least possible.

quote:

Its not fantasy if its actually happening and we all know that violence in general and violence against women in particular is very well a reality.


Violence against women (and men) happens, of course. But what the musical examples here being offered up as "proof" of widespread misogyny represent is (mostly) fantasy. I doubt most people purchasing this music live the lifestyles being represented in the music and repeat the violence the music describes, in real life. At least not at that extreme level. That's why I call it fantasy.

quote:

The music may make it appear hip to some but the same type of misogynist rhetoric shows up in mainstream radio, television, magazines and sadly out of the mouths of some of our own male family members. (but of course that is just boys being boys) I have noticed that the ones screaming the loudest for "tradition values" are generally the ones promoting misogyny.


Perhaps the ones screaming loudest for "traditional" values are also generally the ones promoting misandry?


< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/30/2013 8:45:30 PM >

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 8:48:58 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
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Status: offline 		If you are white and grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood I have no doubt in my mind that you most definitely experienced some discrimination. Most likely a great deal of it. And it was wrong and deplorable. But I cannot say that what you experienced is what the vast majority of white males in this country experience. Yes I have heard black comedians make fun of white comedians. I have also heard white comedians make fun of blacks....men make fun of women and women make fun of men. Its the nature of comedy. I heard one comedian say that the code of a true comedian is that no one but Jesus himself is off limits. So while I don't doubt what you went through I don't buy into this mentality that it is open season on white males. White heterosexual males as a group still have more rights, more privileges and more economic and political standing than any other group in this country. They are still the ruling class in this country.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 9:01:27 PM   
metamorfosis


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This one:
quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
Urban music may reflect the real violence of the ghetto, but the reason it's popular with so many people outside the ghetto is because it rebels against traditional values and glamorizes urban counterculture. It mostly sells violence as a fantasy, not a reality, which appeals those looking to achieve hipness by taking a stand against the establishment, without actually having to get their hands dirty. It is defining oneself by rebellion against social norms and socially acceptable behavior. The same could be said of punk rock, thrash/death metal, hardcore, and heavy metal, from whence come most of the examples of "women bashing" songs on this thread...the very purpose of those lyrics is to shock, disturb, rebel, and engage in fantasy...


This is a claim about what's true for hip hop music in general and not does contain any implication that such things are true for every single example of the genre, but if you like... such things are not true for every last example in the genre. I don't think making such generalizations is dismissive of the hip hop genre or implies that many political statements have not been made by hip hop/rap.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/30/2013 9:09:55 PM >

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 9:41:11 PM   
crazyml


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Status: offline 		Thank-you nick, for posting this link.

What a brilliant song!

And what a contrast between this song (in which her action is a response to the kind of harrassment and intimidation that women all over the world suffer on a daily basis) and all of the equally, if not more so, mainstream songs about chaps smacking their bitches up etc etc - Which are simply the kind of fucked up, pathetic, mysogyny that I am sure you'd want to strongly deplore.

If you examine the song in the cultural context, you wouldn't have to have that big an imagination, and since I know how creative you can be when it comes to summoning up imagined slights against the male sex I'm sure you'll be able to grapple with this one, to see the "shot him in the cock with my glock" as a metaphor for "standing up for herself".

I think this is a great song because it serves as a really nifty, and empowering reminder to women that they don't have to put up with that kind of shit.

Now... as for the other points you've tried to make on this thread, I know you'll want to acknowledge that they've all had the shit properly kicked out of them.

1) It is completely fucking absurd to characterise a single song as being in any fucking way representative of the gender equality movement (which by the way is the term that the current wave of feminist thinkers prefer - Given your claims of knowledge about feminism I'm fucking astonished that you don't know this!)

2) It is completely fucking absurd to claim that there are not 1000's, literally fucking 1000's of songs out there that depict women in degrading and inferior ways, promote violence against women, and indeed as has been demonstrated there are some that directly speak to violence against the va-jay-jay.

Finally can you see how someone might read your posts and come to the conclusion that you're nothing but a disgusting little mysogynist fuckwad?

They might think to themselves "how could anyone say shit like this, in a world where teenage girls have their genitals mutilated, where women are raped in the street for wearing "provocative clothes", where women are 100% more likely to be the victims of domestic violence".

I for one appreciate the sophisticated way in which you like to play devils advocate, so I want to thank you.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 10:00:43 PM   
MsMJAY


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Status: offline 		I doubt most people purchasing this music live the lifestyles being represented in the music and repeat the violence the music describes, in real life. At least not at that extreme level.

That's just it. Most of the violence in rap music is not that extreme. It speaks mostly of slapping "ho's" raping women and putting "bitches" in their place. There are an estimated 1.3 million women who are victims of domestic violence each year. So yes, there are a whole lot of people who actually do lead lives where they beat up women. Let's not even talk about the joke people are making out of raping women these days. And don't get it backwards I said the music was imitating the behavior that is going on in real life.(Not that the fans were copying the behavior in the music.) The rappers are describing the violent society they already see. Slight difference.

Perhaps the ones screaming loudest for "traditional" values are also generally the ones promoting misandry?

Agreed. I have always believed that misogyny and misandry are two sides of the same rotten fruit. They feed each other and breed each other.

(edited to correct the statistical number)

< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 8/30/2013 10:05:04 PM >

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/30/2013 11:14:43 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
That's just it. Most of the violence in rap music is not that extreme. It speaks mostly of slapping "ho's" raping women and putting "bitches" in their place. There are an estimated 1.3 million women who are victims of domestic violence each year. So yes, there are a whole lot of people who actually do lead lives where they beat up women...The rappers are describing the violent society they already see. Slight difference.


I see your point, but I'm not convinced many of them aren't describing a fantasy world they spin out of their own imaginations in order to market "toughness" and sell CDs.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/31/2013 11:13:41 AM   
Charles6682


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Status: offline 		I agree that my experience in America has been different than most white male's. Perhap's because I have experienced discrimination first hand because of who I am, I am more sensitive toward's discrimination. It's a horrible feeling to be discriminated against because of the color of someone's skin. All I am saying is that ALL discrimination must end, if this country is ever to truly more forward.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 8/31/2013 6:48:31 PM   
naughtynick81


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Status: offline 		Crazyml

Here's Mr female favouritism himself.

From our past discussions, you've mentioned that you're a gynocentrist oh I meant feminist.

So it's no surprise how you consider this song to be brilliant and great in your words while on the other hand saying songs that indicate violence against women is fucked up pathetic misogyny.

Any reasonable person can see how fucked up this mentality of yours is.

You actually prove my point.

If women were truly treated as an underclass, people in general wouldnt excuse violence against men while being overly sensitive when it happens to women.

Anyway, typing this on my phone is annoying the hell out of me. I will continue when I get home

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 4:13:30 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

Crazyml

Here's Mr female favouritism himself.

Gosh, I've no idea where you might have come to that conclusion. I'm as ready as the next person to challenge nonsense whether it's the kind of nonsense written by mysandrists or the kind of pathetic shit that misogynists occasionally vomit onto these boards.
quote:



From our past discussions, you've mentioned that you're a gynocentrist oh I meant feminist.


I would be fascinated to see you produce a single shred of evidence to suggest that I am gynocentric in my feminism. What a lot of really stupid, women fearing little wankers do is to try to conflate the two terms. I'm sure you're not trying to do that, I'm sure you'll understand the distinction. Ok, I'm not absolutely certain that you do, but I live in hope.

quote:



So it's no surprise how you consider this song to be brilliant and great in your words while on the other hand saying songs that indicate violence against women is fucked up pathetic misogyny.


The distinction I was making is that the song you've got yourself all shook up over describes a woman's daily experience of harrassment. Whereas the corpus of rap songs that indicate violence against women doesn't exactly represent a harrassed group (men) at last standing up to their harassers (women) does it.

I would regard that distinction as pretty meaningful

quote:


Any reasonable person can see how fucked up this mentality of yours is.



Your definition of "reasonable person" is so so far out of line with mine that I doubt we're likely to agree on this.

But you know - once the edit window closes on this forum your post is here forever and I don't have the words to tell you how utterly and completely content I am for anyone to read your posts, and mine, and draw their own conclusions about which of us has a "fucked up mentality".

Now... I wonder if you've enough introspection to do an exercise like that yourself?

quote:



You actually prove my point.

If women were truly treated as an underclass, people in general wouldnt excuse violence against men while being overly sensitive when it happens to women.


That's a very odd thing to say, since "people" in general don't excuse violence against men, except where there are extenuating circumstances - even then, many legal systems don't account for the kind "provocation over time" that situations of domestic abuse produce, so women who eventually snap in the face of abuse get a harder time legally.

Yes, there are calls for the shit that appears in rap songs to be addressed, but I'm quite sure that on this forum no-one has started a thread condemning it. And yet, when a single example of the opposite appears, here you are... whining about it!

quote:


Anyway, typing this on my phone is annoying the hell out of me. I will continue when I get home


I can't wait!

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 10:09:48 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

LadyPact

You miscomprehended what I am saying.

I'm not saying that I'm actually not allowed to post these threads as for some type of site rule. However, the attitudes people display towards me when I make these threads indicate that they believe I am not entitled.



That is you that believe that because you do not want to face the truth. Just your posts come across as very whiny, and since you post many of them that come across as whiny, then it is not about the issue but how your posts come across as whiny. You do yourself a disservice if you are actually try to spread some kind of message.

Some of the particular examples you use are very trivial, such as this song. How many songs are there about male to female violence, as compared to how many are female to male violence? The point of violence against anyone being portrayed in music as wrong (which I do not agree with), is downplayed because one side has very, very few examples of it being done and the other has a huge amount.

Your personal interest in this matter skews your perception of why people have a problem with just your posts. How many people have to say it before you get that point?

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 12:06:17 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
...your posts come across as very whiny, and since you post many of them that come across as whiny, then it is not about the issue but how your posts come across as whiny. You do yourself a disservice if you are actually try to spread some kind of message...


While I agree, I think posters do themselves a disservice when they ignore the ideas presented for discussion instead make a poster's manner the topic of a thread.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/1/2013 12:07:56 PM >

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 12:15:40 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
...your posts come across as very whiny, and since you post many of them that come across as whiny, then it is not about the issue but how your posts come across as whiny. You do yourself a disservice if you are actually try to spread some kind of message...


While I agree, I think posters do themselves a disservice when they ignore the ideas presented for discussion instead make a poster's manner the topic of a thread.

Could that be because all of Nick's posts are whiny and always on the same topic?
And that all he seeks is someone to agree with his mysogynistic views?
He doesn't seek answers or true debate - just agreement to his vitriolic garbage he spews at every post.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 4:05:35 PM   
naughtynick81


Posts: 890
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Status: offline 		Wow crazyml, aren't you getting cranky. Or is it just making you feel all mushy and warm inside to be a white knight for your almighty superior female feminists?

quote:

Gosh, I've no idea where you might have come to that conclusion


It's very simple. When a person excuses violence against men while being sensitive when it happens to women, it can't get any more obvious that this person has heavy favouritism towards women.

In your case, not only that, but with our history and observing your insanely gynocentric posts, there is no doubt in my mind that you favour women over men.

In your twisted gynocentric mind, when feminists complain about female issues, they are innocent victims standing up for their rights. When men complain about male issues, they are misogynists! No ifs or buts

How dare a man even mention it!

This is why being a feminist is a 1000 times more socially acceptable than it is to be a MRA. Contemporary feminism hasn't got a perfect reputation though.

quote:

I would be fascinated to see you produce a single shred of evidence to suggest that I am gynocentric in my feminism.


I have, look above where I just did again. I truly think you're way off the mark of really wanting equality. Your opinion on the video is a perfect example.

So tell me, when is it ever excusable to hit a woman besides if she is hitting a man first and a man needs to defend himself?

Far too often in mainstream media, including family entertainment, it's a social norm to see a woman slap a man or hit his nuts simply because he says something that offends her or she is annoyed with him one way or the other.

But would these same reasons work for a man using violence against a woman? Would it be excusable for a man to slap a woman or kick her vulva if she just simply said something that offended him?

Would it be considered "humour" in family entertainment?

quote:

What a lot of really stupid, women fearing little wankers


LOL great double standard. Many use this same double standard.

A woman supporting her gender = strong modern liberated woman standing up for her rights

A man supporting his gender = woman fearing and no balls.

So as it seems, a woman is strong when she stands up for her gender, a man is weak when he stands up for his gender.


quote:

The distinction I was making is that the song you've got yourself all shook up over describes a woman's daily experience of harrassment. Whereas the corpus of rap songs that indicate violence against women doesn't exactly represent a harrassed group (men) at last standing up to their harassers (women) does it.


And this goes back to the question. When is it ever excusable, in your terms, for a man to use gendered violence against a woman simply because she is saying things that he doesn't like?

quote:

That's a very odd thing to say, since "people" in general don't excuse violence against men


Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks

95.3% of men felt domestic violence agencies were anti-male...40% reported being accused of perpetrating DV when seeking help at said agencies.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 5:04:55 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis
While I agree, I think posters do themselves a disservice when they ignore the ideas presented for discussion instead make a poster's manner the topic of a thread.

It's not an ad hominem if the person making the arguments genuinely is the problem with them.

Especially when Nick never engages properly with counter-arguments. To try and debate seriously with him would be like trying to teach my cat astrophysics.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 5:10:54 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
....To try and debate seriously with him would be like trying to teach my cat astrophysics.

I'd give your cat 1000-1 odds-on favourite and I think my money is safe 

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 6:58:00 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Maybe but it is like the story of a boy who cried wolf. After a while the message means not so much as that the same person presents it in the same manner.


quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
...your posts come across as very whiny, and since you post many of them that come across as whiny, then it is not about the issue but how your posts come across as whiny. You do yourself a disservice if you are actually try to spread some kind of message...


While I agree, I think posters do themselves a disservice when they ignore the ideas presented for discussion instead make a poster's manner the topic of a thread.



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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/1/2013 9:51:00 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Could that be because all of Nick's posts are whiny and always on the same topic?
And that all he seeks is someone to agree with his mysogynistic views?
He doesn't seek answers or true debate - just agreement to his vitriolic garbage he spews at every post.


Who says you have to debate him?

I don't care if Nick only makes whiny posts on the same subject. This time I thought his take on that subject warranted discussion. I was answering the thread, not the person who wrote it. There were a number of people who did that, and I enjoyed reading their arguments. The ones telling Nick to fuck off... not so much.

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/2/2013 6:02:37 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

Wow crazyml, aren't you getting cranky. Or is it just making you feel all mushy and warm inside to be a white knight for your almighty superior female feminists?


Lord no! You're entertaining

quote:


quote:

Gosh, I've no idea where you might have come to that conclusion


It's very simple. When a person excuses violence against men while being sensitive when it happens to women, it can't get any more obvious that this person has heavy favouritism towards women.


Oh bless your heart, I've explained this to you twice now. Maybe you should go over it with a friend? Perhaps they'll be able to explain the distinction!

quote:


In your case, not only that, but with our history and observing your insanely gynocentric posts, there is no doubt in my mind that you favour women over men.



Gosh! Examples please! Unless this is all in your fevered imagination?

quote:


In your twisted gynocentric mind, when feminists complain about female issues, they are innocent victims standing up for their rights. When men complain about male issues, they are misogynists! No ifs or buts

How dare a man even mention it!

Please give an example of this "twisted gynocentric mind". You've provided plenty of examples of your rampant mysogyny, show me an example of my gynocentricity.

I'm quite sure you don't understand the difference between feminist and gynocentric. Bless your heart.

quote:


This is why being a feminist is a 1000 times more socially acceptable than it is to be a MRA. Contemporary feminism hasn't got a perfect reputation though.
[
quote:

I would be fascinated to see you produce a single shred of evidence to suggest that I am gynocentric in my feminism.


I have, look above where I just did again. I truly think you're way off the mark of really wanting equality. Your opinion on the video is a perfect example.


Oh poppet, your opinion isn't evidence. I asked for evidence, you have produced none.

quote:


So tell me, when is it ever excusable to hit a woman besides if she is hitting a man first and a man needs to defend himself?


Er Nicky babes.... you're on a kink site where tons of women arrange to get hit by men... I mean pay fucking attention!

quote:


Far too often in mainstream media, including family entertainment, it's a social norm to see a woman slap a man or hit his nuts simply because he says something that offends her or she is annoyed with him one way or the other.


Yeah, it's often all the more fucking hilarious because the man frequently so obviously bigger than the woman.

quote:


But would these same reasons work for a man using violence against a woman? Would it be excusable for a man to slap a woman or kick her vulva if she just simply said something that offended him?


No it wouldn't. Not least because it would remind us too keenly of the violence that is still perpetuated against women.

What a silly thing to suggest!

Oh... and can you guess the gender of the vast majority of people writing that comedy? Go on... have a go...

quote:


Would it be considered "humour" in family entertainment?


No, don't be ridiculous.

quote:


quote:

What a lot of really stupid, women fearing little wankers


LOL great double standard. Many use this same double standard.

A woman supporting her gender = strong modern liberated woman standing up for her rights

A man supporting his gender = woman fearing and no balls.


No, you didn't understand what I said. I'm sorry I can't explain things simply enough.

I used the phrase "what a lot of really stupid, women fearing little wankers" in the context of people that cannot distinguish between feminism and gynocentricity.

I really don't mind bandying words with you, but don't go inventing stuff... that might make people think you're a liar.

quote:


So as it seems, a woman is strong when she stands up for her gender, a man is weak when he stands up for his gender.


Not at all. A man is weak when he invents slights and imagines himself oppressed by women when all of the vast hoard of evidence points the opposite way. A man is weak when he has to twist and conflate words, a man is weak when he has to lie and twist in order to make a point.

A strong man stands up for his gender. And for the female gender. And for the transgendered.

A strong man recognises that in so many respects society still places women at a disadvantage.

A strong man will fight for equality in parental rights (one of the few areas where men are unfairly penalised vs women - at least in western culture).

A strong man will argue for equal employment rights for the transgendered.



quote:



quote:

The distinction I was making is that the song you've got yourself all shook up over describes a woman's daily experience of harrassment. Whereas the corpus of rap songs that indicate violence against women doesn't exactly represent a harrassed group (men) at last standing up to their harassers (women) does it.


And this goes back to the question. When is it ever excusable, in your terms, for a man to use gendered violence against a woman simply because she is saying things that he doesn't like?


I didn't say "saying things that he doesn't like" I said "harassing". Can you see any distinction there.

Besides, Nicky pops... you know she didn't ACTUALLY shoot the guy in the cock with her glock... you are clear on that aren't you?

Of course it's inappropriate to actually shoot a man in his penis for harrassing her. And, you know... I'm almost certain that the singer wasn't actually advocating that her sisters shoot men in the penis for harrassing them.


quote:



quote:

That's a very odd thing to say, since "people" in general don't excuse violence against men


Reaction To Women Abusing Men In Public

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks

95.3% of men felt domestic violence agencies were anti-male...40% reported being accused of perpetrating DV when seeking help at said agencies.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf


Oh Nicky Nicky Nicky!

Do you see who wrote that report... OH NOES.... TWO WIMMINS WROTE THAT REPORT

Two Women wrote it.

Women.

Two of them.

HA HA HA HA

I think that kicks the arse out of your mysogynistic clap-trap.

Two women are going to the trouble to raise the really serious issue of DV against men.

As are a number of feminist groups, writers and activists. Including Erin Pizzey (fyi, she's the man hating bitch who set up one of the first Women's refuges in the world) (Oh and fyi she is also the bitch who has said that Domestic Violence against men is a big and growing problem).

See .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5WbGokrl0

But bless you for trying!

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RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/2/2013 6:20:33 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		And hearty round of applause goes to CrazyML!!!!!! for the use of poppet!

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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Feminist song openly calls for violence against men - 9/2/2013 6:45:09 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I don't really see what the original post has to do with politics or religion...

Can we get a separate forum labelled mental illness for such statements?

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 180
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