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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 3:35:44 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR~
From what I understand, gas warfare in 1915/16 was ineffective; it did not advantage either side and the damage done to individual soldiers was of course atrocious.

Strategically, a useless weapon. ...


It sounds to me that the assumptions underlying the decision were not carefully considered. What may have been true for World War I might not be true in all contexts. Unfortunately, modern war is like the war on drugs.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 3:50:59 PM   
JeffBC


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Status: offline 		I think I see where your head is at on this BenevolentM and if so, I'm with you.

In point of fact I'm not a huge fan of any "rules of war". I think that's hilarious and tragic and very, very dangerous. War is not a civilized or pretty thing and I'd just as soon avoid putting lipstick on the pig. It seems to me that rules on paper are very pretty and the moment one side starts to lose and they have the means to stop that defeat....

The whole problem is my view conflicts with notions of "honor" and "glory" in war. By my view there's nothing honorable or glorious about it. It's a dirty, nasty business that will soil your soul if you partake of it but sometimes you need to anyway.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:11:49 PM   
BamaD


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Status: offline 		The Rules of war are a veneer to make war seem civilized.
We (the US) haven't had an enemy who followed them in over a century.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/1/2013 4:15:48 PM >

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:13:23 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		If we go to war, what will we be fighting for exactly? Having said that, the sarin gas issue does seem like an excellent excuse to get the international community involved.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:16:48 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

If we go to war, what will we be fighting for exactly? Having said that, the sarin gas issue does seem like an excellent excuse to get the international community involved.

And they are disinterested and gassing his own people was no reason to attack Saddam


< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/1/2013 4:17:50 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:22:47 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Send the French in, go French! If the United States keeps out of this, I think there will be a better chance that there will be some international agreement concerning what must be done.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:34:10 PM   
getoutnow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Send the French in, go French! If the United States keeps out of this, I think there will be a better chance that there will be some international agreement concerning what must be done.


It's disgraceful that the house of commons voted British involvement out. Someone hang that idiot Milliband.

Anyway, send in the Brits too!

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:34:54 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

It was the first experience anyone had with a World War.

Kana sez, not true. What Americans call the French Indian war was actually an off shoot of the first true world war. The British and French fought in Europe, Africa, Asia, the Americas-if that ain't world wide, IDK what the funk is.

I think it would be better to call it the world's first encounter with industrialized war.


Technically, I believe that was the American Civil War. Europe was at this time the center of global power and the homeland of the intellectual elite. World War I was fought on the homeland. The French-Indian War wasn't nor was the American Civil War. The Great War was a world war in that sense. At the time of the American Civil War we were hickville USA. And, let us not forget the contributions of the German chemists to the war effort. A recall a story concerning one of the German chemists. His wife was appalled by what her husband was doing and shot herself in the heart over it.

Most of the world ignored the ACW and while it certainly presaged the developments that came of age in WWI it did not have the horrors of long term trench warfare, widespread use of automatic weapons, poison gas, artillery barrages etc..

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:35:58 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The Great War offended everyone. It was the first experience anyone had with a World War. Perhaps they overreacted. It is easy to overreact when facing something novel.


911 was a novel experience for the United States; consequently, I suspect we over reacted.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:40:19 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
If the United States keeps out of this, I think there will be a better chance that there will be some international agreement concerning what must be done.

No. It will likely turn into another Bosnia.

Did Santayana really live in vain?

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:52:22 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR~
From what I understand, gas warfare in 1915/16 was ineffective; it did not advantage either side and the damage done to individual soldiers was of course atrocious.

Trench warfare wasnt really effective either, using the same objectivity. Both sides would fight for weeks with only a few hundred yards swaping one way then another.

quote:


Strategically, a useless weapon. Makes me wonder about the mindset that led to developing the prohibitions in the Geneva Convention. Does the Convention prohibit land mines or nuclear weapons and label them as crimes against humanity?

There is a law prohibiting land mines and nuclear weapons. There is also a treaty on anti personel land mines under the 1997 Ottowa Treaty.
Several countries, including the US, have signed up to neither afaik.

quote:


Another question I have is: what is the enforcement mechanism? None really. Is the GC more than some rules on tissue paper?

Finally, seems like banning particular weapons of war is a consolation prize given by those who could not bring about an agreement to ban War itself. But I suppose there would be no effective enforcement mechanism for that. I mean, what do you do? Make war on those who are making war to stop them from making war???? Silly shit when you reduce it to the core logic.


Its a breach of The International Humanitarian Laws. Your guess as to how we ever enforce this, especially since that would need every nation to sign every treaty, is as good as mine.

Good points well made though.



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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:56:09 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did Santayana really live in vain?


Speaking of Santayana

quote:


Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.


http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_santayana.html

France was involved in World War I and as such has some collective experience on the matter. The United States doesn't.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 4:57:12 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The Great War offended everyone. It was the first experience anyone had with a World War. Perhaps they overreacted. It is easy to overreact when facing something novel.


911 was a novel experience for the United States; consequently, I suspect we over reacted.


Over reacted....you are fucking joking. The decision to go after AQ was indeed a reasonable one, even if the US and UK went about it the wrong way (By not making a deal with the Taliban. And not taking out AQ at Tora Bora)

The notion of not taking action after so many civillians were killed on American soil is absurd.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 5:01:55 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		We could make a deal with France. It may help heal the wounds between the United States and France. You take the lead and we will support whatever position you take.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 5:05:38 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

We could make a deal with France. It may help heal the wounds between the United States and France. You take the lead and we will support whatever position you take.


Fuck France...... Just justify your bullshit post about 9/11 and over reaction.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 5:08:27 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The notion of not taking action after so many civillians were killed on American soil is absurd.


For a time we had the sympathy of the world which could have been used to serve our interests in our war against terror. If we back the French on this one, we can for once come out of this smelling good. The French I anticipate would be better at holding the moral high ground than we would be.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 5:12:08 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		I say glorify France. Make it their call as to what the war is all about. It doesn't hurt to play submissive on occasion.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 6:26:26 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Would it be a war crime to give the French an orgasm? It really couldn't be that bad.

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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 7:25:01 PM   
Winterapple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did Santayana really live in vain?


Speaking of Santayana

quote:


Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.


http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_santayana.html

France was involved in World War I and as such has some collective experience on the matter. The United States doesn't.

The US was also involved in World War I. At the Meuse Argonne American Cemetary
Memorial there are 14,246 buried American soldiers who lost their lives during the
Battle of the Argonne Forest.



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RE: What makes it a war crime? - 9/1/2013 7:30:16 PM   
Winterapple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

We could make a deal with France. It may help heal the wounds between the United States and France. You take the lead and we will support whatever position you take.

The US should follow France's lead and offer them support in Syria?
Like we did in Vietnam?

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A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




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