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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 1:23:50 PM

Baroana

Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
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There seems to be a disagreement here over whose duty it is to guard boundaries. Some say touch unless you are told it is not ok. That kind of thinking has led to many date rapes.

I say don't touch unless you are told it is ok. If you think that's extreme, then I think you are backwards.

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 41

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 1:24:32 PM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

ORIGINAL: petitespot

I've always stuck my tongue in peoples ear when I've met them for the first time.
Should I not have done that?

I'm not going to lie... dats hot.

I dunno about this - i'd have to inspect the ear first, so that I don't end up with crunchy bits on the end of my tongue...............................

and unless I know you, don't kiss me.

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 42

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 1:47:12 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply ~

I admit I had to laugh at Gauge's idea of wearing a sign and Jeff's vision of walking around with hoola hoops.

I've seen threads like this before, in which a lot of people seriously do NOT like to be touched. I have to say, it has always really, really surprised me, but has also opened my eyes about what an issue it can be for some people.

I was raised in a very touchy-feely household. We kissed Mom & Dad when they got home. As adults, we always hug and kiss our siblings when we see them, and nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, cousins....you get the idea. And that's on both sides of the family. With the family in Spain, there's a "double kiss kiss" on each side of the cheeks when greeting and parting - for friends and family. Family friends on both sides of the family hug and kiss. My friends and I hug and kiss hello and goodbye. By "kiss" I'm talking a peck on the cheek, and not the air kind.

At work, the guys and I nudge each other a lot, in friendship, because we all really like each other and raz each other and support each other. I shake hands when meeting people. For the folks from CM whom I've met, I've hugged hello.

I had never heard of this personal space issue until coming to CM.

I don't care if a man kisses my hand. Some men have hugged me hello upon greeting, and I'm fine with it being kind of a "distance hug" if that makes sense. It's not unusual in conversation with someone to give or receive a touch of the shoulder or something like that. To me it's no biggy.

I am not offended by other people's cultures. Nor am I offended by people needing to not be touched. I find it a bit extreme to consider these gestures "assualt" (violent or physical attack; threat or attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm, as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) or "battery" (the act of beating; offensive touching or use of force without a person's consent) as I reserve those terms for actual harm being threatened or instigated.

Now, yes, I have been touched and kissed inappropriately. One dude at work sat on the side of my desk and put his hand on my leg. Another dude at work put his hand on the small of my back as I passed through a door that he opened for me. One complete stranger at a bar (I was there for a relative's bday party) forced a kiss on me (he was dealt with by someone else).

Those are things that are personally offensive to me, but everyone's thresh-hold is different. If someone in my circle gets highly offended at an innocent gesture I give, we probably won't stay in each others circles, which makes sense. If I know you well enough to know you don't like those gestures, I will definitely respect that. But I'm not going to alter my natural conduct with everyone I meet because someone might think I'm assaulting them.

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(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 43

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 1:54:20 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I once had a first date where the guy acted all gentlemanly and when we left, I turned my cheek for a chaste kiss

Instead, he grabbed my hair, pulled my head back and BIT me on the exposed part of my cleavage, really hard.

Inappropriate? You tell me.

Cultural context, again. He was from Transylvania, right?

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(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 44

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 2:02:12 PM

MasterCaneman

Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petitespot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Had a discussion today about when it's ok to kiss someone without permission and not be a rapey creep. My opinion is, almost never.

I've always stuck my tongue in peoples ear when I've met them for the first time.
Should I not have done that?

Talk about forced aural sex.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler

(in reply to petitespot)

Post #: 45

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 2:51:12 PM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
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And I thought air kisses were offensive to almost everyone.

Beware of the deep south. You will be called "hon'" "darlin"" and "sugar" by complete strangers. You will be hugged and given a peck on the cheek by people upon being formally introduced (depending on venue).

And thoroughly beware of the "Great Aunt Mabel" types that will pinch your cheek and try to tell you they used to change your diapers.

Anyone out to sixth cousin twice removed is "family"

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 46

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 4:33:38 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

There seems to be a disagreement here over whose duty it is to guard boundaries.

It is your duty to guard your boundaries.

quote:

Some say touch unless you are told it is not ok.

Never said that.

quote:

That kind of thinking has led to many date rapes.

This is another example of that extreme thinking.

quote:

I say don't touch unless you are told it is ok.

It is up to you to set your boundaries clearly because not everyone thinks like you do.

quote:

If you think that's extreme, then I think you are backwards.

No, I think it has been the fact that you are using words like rape, assault and battery that is backwards. There is something called "Intent" and me reaching out and touching your shoulder to get your attention does not equate to rape. Sorry, it just doesn't work like that. You may have your personal feelings about being touched and I totally respect that, but do not presume to think that everyone should respect your boundaries when no one has any way at all to know what they are, and what is acceptable to you or not. I do agree that some restraint is in order in social situations, but over all not everyone has the same feelings about touching someone else. This is just the way it is.

_____________________________

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I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 47

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 4:39:55 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I've seen threads like this before, in which a lot of people seriously do NOT like to be touched. I have to say, it has always really, really surprised me, but has also opened my eyes about what an issue it can be for some people.

~shrug~ I can sympathize. I'm not a hugger and in fact don't like physical touch from anyone but Carol. Women, however, routinely take great liberties. I try to not over-react. The next time someone reaches to adjust my tie knot for me though you can bet I'll be pondering rape charges LOL.

Honestly, I understand that some people are SO averse to physical touch that ANY uninvited touch is some sort of personal invasion. Such people should not go out int crowded public venues. As I think about all the venues I go to (and my association hosts a wide variety of mixers and the like) I'd bet I touched someone in some way or another at every single one of them if for no other reason than to get their attention so I could scoot behind/around them. Nobody has ever run out of the room crying rape. Nobody has ever, to the best of my knowledge, reacted at all other than to adjust their position so I could pass (or whatever else was going on at the moment).

I had never heard of this personal space issue until coming to CM.
Here and on fetlife. By the time I heard this first, however, I was already savvy to the difference between BDSM in the real world and BDSM online. SO I just asked our local BDSM friends the next time we were having dinner. They looked at me like... well... like I'd been reading collarme again.

_____________________________

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officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 48

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 4:44:30 PM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

You may have your personal feelings about being touched and I totally respect that, but do not presume to think that everyone should respect your boundaries when no one has any way at all to know what they are, and what is acceptable to you or not. I do agree that some restraint is in order in social situations, but over all not everyone has the same feelings about touching someone else. This is just the way it is.

I keep hearing Tony Shaloub as Adrian Monk turning to his assistant, Natalie, and saying: "Wipe! Wipe! Wipe! Wipe!"

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 9/4/2013 4:46:02 PM >

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 49

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 4:57:37 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Now an inappropriate friendly kiss (somewhere, as you have not been very good at communicating) is being put in the the causality of date rape? You asked me what was extreme? Really? Really?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

There seems to be a disagreement here over whose duty it is to guard boundaries. Some say touch unless you are told it is not ok. That kind of thinking has led to many date rapes.

I say don't touch unless you are told it is ok. If you think that's extreme, then I think you are backwards.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 50

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 5:04:41 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I've seen threads like this before, in which a lot of people seriously do NOT like to be touched. I have to say, it has always really, really surprised me, but has also opened my eyes about what an issue it can be for some people.

~shrug~ I can sympathize. I'm not a hugger and in fact don't like physical touch from anyone but Carol. Women, however, routinely take great liberties. I try to not over-react. The next time someone reaches to adjust my tie knot for me though you can bet I'll be pondering rape charges LOL.

<Grin> I don't recall hugging you when I met you and Carol at a mutual friend's dinner get together. Nor would I dream of adjusting someone else's tie (unless it was the Mister or my brother or something). I wouldn't want charges pressed against me, after all.

quote:

Honestly, I understand that some people are SO averse to physical touch that ANY uninvited touch is some sort of personal invasion. Such people should not go out int crowded public venues.

I agree.

quote:

As I think about all the venues I go to (and my association hosts a wide variety of mixers and the like) I'd bet I touched someone in some way or another at every single one of them if for no other reason than to get their attention so I could scoot behind/around them. Nobody has ever run out of the room crying rape. Nobody has ever, to the best of my knowledge, reacted at all other than to adjust their position so I could pass (or whatever else was going on at the moment).

Right. I don't like crowds; I get claustrophobic. So I avoid large crowds whenever possible. He didn't understand the depth of this, and insisted, at one concert we went to, that we stand up front with the crowd instead of off to the side or finding a seat on the balcony. By the time the show was over I was frozen stiff with tears streaming down my face, from SO.MANY.BODIES pressed against me and bumping into me at once.

But, I put myself in that situation (rather, he did, but that's not the point). To get upset at everyone for not respecting my personal space would have been illogical. Now that we know my reaction to crowds, we keep me away from them, when possible. The onus is on us, to keep me comfortable. Obviously the unavoidable contact in a crowd is different than people touching for whatever reason (ie; a hand on my shoulder with an, "Excuse me" as they pass). But I don't find the latter to be personally offensive, in fact, I find it polite.

quote:

I had never heard of this personal space issue until coming to CM.
Here and on fetlife. By the time I heard this first, however, I was already savvy to the difference between BDSM in the real world and BDSM online. SO I just asked our local BDSM friends the next time we were having dinner. They looked at me like... well... like I'd been reading collarme again.

LOL no doubt. But it's a topic worth talking about. I'll have to ask people offline about it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 51

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 5:24:04 PM

MasterCaneman

Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Now an inappropriate friendly kiss (somewhere, as you have not been very good at communicating) is being put in the the causality of date rape? You asked me what was extreme? Really? Really?

I don't know about anyone else, but someone (even a hot looking woman) kisses me without warning, I get upset. Not at the act, but the fact that I'd lost control. I like to control my situation to a very high degree, and it doesn't matter who, a stranger touching me at all is a major negative in my book.

At the risk of sounding Monk-esque, I don't want someone else's cold, flu, or whatever gambu they've got in them. I also don't want to become the target of some guy she may have been trying to piss off. This has happened before. I'm also distrustful about her being more entrepreneurial than amorous (see "Hugging Bandit").

I don't like touchy-feely people. I never have, and never will. It's not enjoyable to me, and I'm a big, bad, rough-and-tumble kinda guy. Did I lose out on some wild after-party action? Sure, probably. Still don't care. I don't want to go with a woman who lacks the self-discipline to not do shit like that.

< Message edited by MasterCaneman -- 9/4/2013 5:25:42 PM >

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 52

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 5:29:35 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
I don't want to go with a chick who lacks the self-discipline to not do shit like that.

See this is interesting to me. I don't go around hugging total strangers, but for years and years my touchy-feely'ness was very stifled, to the point where it was detrimental to me to not...well...be me.

I would say it takes self discipline to allow yourself to be yourself, when the world around you pushes you not to.

Probably more appropriate for you to say a touchy-feely chick would not be compatible with you, as she does not hold the same priorities, rather than insulting those who aren't like you.

It's life. You're NEVER fully in control. You can be in control of how you respond to it, however.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)

Post #: 53

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 7:31:00 PM

MistressDarkArt

Posts: 5178
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

At the risk of sounding Monk-esque, I don't want someone else's cold, flu, or whatever gambu they've got in them.

This ^^^ Last year, I was immuno-compromised for 6 months while recovering from severe anemia. I did not even want to shake hands with people, let alone be around their sneezes and coughs. When someone held out their hand when meeting me, I slightly bowed my head and put my hands together in traditional 'namaste' position. I wish that gesture was traditional culture in the US.

Also, when a person touches me I pick up a lot of information about them, and sometimes it's information I really wish I didn't know.

< Message edited by MistressDarkArt -- 9/4/2013 7:32:11 PM >

(in reply to MasterCaneman)

Post #: 54

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 8:44:33 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

My co-workers tap my shoulders all the time because I usually have headphones on. I guess I should serve them all warrants tomorrow for their arrest.

When I went on a business trip to Dallas, all the clients, both male and female, that I was there to train, gave me a hug or a handshake. I guess maybe I should have screamed rape.

I met a grandfatherly like old Greek man who I got into a conversation with once. Then I ran into him a few weeks later. He remembered me, came up to me, grabbed my cheeks and gave me a big kiss on my lips and started laughing. I laughed too. He was funny and we had another great conversation. I guess I should have called the police right then and there.

All these assaults and batteries and rapes. I should be dead by now. It's a miracle!

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Everything has changed

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Post #: 55

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 9:24:23 PM

MissToYouRedux

Posts: 867
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I had never heard of this personal space issue until coming to CM.

Proxemics - the study of personal space, coined by Edward Hall back in the Fifties and Sixties.

A great NY Times article about it:

In Certain Circles, Two is a Crowd
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/16/fashion/16space.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And of course there's Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics

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(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 56

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 9:31:46 PM

MasterCaneman

Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
I don't want to go with a chick who lacks the self-discipline to not do shit like that.

See this is interesting to me. I don't go around hugging total strangers, but for years and years my touchy-feely'ness was very stifled, to the point where it was detrimental to me to not...well...be me.

I would say it takes self discipline to allow yourself to be yourself, when the world around you pushes you not to.

Probably more appropriate for you to say a touchy-feely chick would not be compatible with you, as she does not hold the same priorities, rather than insulting those who aren't like you.

It's life. You're NEVER fully in control. You can be in control of how you respond to it, however.

Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly then. I respond well, quite civilly. I never disrespect someone who's like that, but I don't have any problem letting them know (in a socially acceptable manner, of course), that I don't like it. Most respect my wishes.

I know I'm not really in control of much in life, but I'll be damned if I can't control a six-foot bubble of airspace around me. I like people, I really do. I can't explain it, but I just don't like strangers touching me. I have no problem with those I'm close to-hell, I'm downright cuddly when I want to be.

< Message edited by MasterCaneman -- 9/4/2013 9:32:16 PM >

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 57

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 9:46:47 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

I do understand and respect where you're coming from. Just wanted to point out that it's not necessarily a lack of self control issue for someone who expresses themselves with a slight touch here or there.

I find most people in general tend to touch, and figured it's just a human nature thing. The only times I'd cringe is when my sister would be at the store or something with her (then) preemie baby who hadn't built immunities yet, and random strangers would come touch his face. She finally safety-pinned a little card on him that said, "Please do not touch me - I have no immune system yet" and people respected that.

That situation caused me to always ask someone before touching their baby (I just love baby toes, can't keep my hands off them lol).

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)

Post #: 58

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 9:57:12 PM

MasterCaneman

Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline

Slight touch is okay. Tap me on the shoulder because you have to get past me is also okay. I was meaning the chronic huggers, back-slappers, and shoulder-grabbers. Drunk-chick slobber kisses, bro-hugs, that kind of stuff. Those are the ones who creep me out. The people who know me know this.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 59

RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/4/2013 9:59:24 PM

metamorfosis

Posts: 1132
Status: offline

My opinion is comparing someone who gives an unsolicited kiss to a rapey creep is beyond silly.

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(in reply to Baroana)

Post #: 60

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