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Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:02:46 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know...maybe posting this just before a holiday weekend is not the best way to get a fair representative group of answers but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

The idea came to me after reading several thread regarding courtesy, respect, saying no to your dominant, speaking with a submissive friend, etc.

I've been involved in D/s/BDSM for about 9 years now. When I was getting started, there seemed to be much more evidence of courteous attitudes towards others. Yeah, there were jerks...there always seems to be in any group...but there seemed to be many more who were friendly, helpful, and courteous. As I noted on the courtesy thread, having been raised this way myself and somewhat disheartened by what I saw as a coarsening in the world at large, this was refreshing.

What is puzzling is that, in my observations anyway, there seems to be a rise in D/s of a certain mindset: On one hand, you have submissives who are friendly and courteous and who believe that it is best to use a courteous approach when dealing with other dominants and a respectful approach when dealing with their own. Their relationship with their dominant may include banter and/or the right to express their own opinion and/or the right to argue but it is all approached in a manner that shows respect for their partner and for their dominant.

On the other hand, you have the type of submissive who seems to feel, if appearances are to be believed, that courtesy is for "old folks" or for when they really want something. They feel that while they may submit to their dominant, they are under no obligation to always be respectful or courteous to him. Especially when it comes to a subject broached with which they totally disagree. As for other dominants/submissives...what they are makes no difference, even once their story is known...as far as this submissive is concerned, they are not much different than the vanilla people she interacts with every day and therefore, receive no more courtesy and no more respect. This type of submissive seems to take a special joy in proclaiming their independence and in noting that, while they are submissive, they "won't be pushed around".

Now, as to my question. For many submissives in the second group, those submissives in the first group are "dumb doormats" or "desperate". For many submissives in the first group, those in the second group are "sham submissives" or "closet manhaters"
How does anyone from either group know this for certain? Or are they just going by perception?

It seems to me that the only one(s) who would know for sure are those who are involved with those from the groups.

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?

CAVEAT: I am not stating that one group is better than the other...let's make that clear. I purposely hold off stating my own opinion on this at first so as to get discussion going about the questions asked.
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:24:38 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?



If a Dom/me is courteous to me do I assume that they are not really Dom/me? No. If a submissive is courteous to me why would I think they are a doormat? That doesn't make sense to me.

IMO courtesy is something that is given to everyone, whether they deserve it or not. Part of who I am includes being courteous to people. Am I a doormat? Well, I can be but that is not indicated by my being courteous.

It takes someone who is self-confident and self-assured to treat others courteously, especially if the others do not deserve that kind of treatment. I don't care if I'm dealing with a Dom/me or a submissive/slave. I treat everyone with courtesy. There is a bit more deference paid to a Dom/me than a sub/slave, but all are treated with politeness and courtesy.

But then, maybe it's my age coming into play again....

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:45:44 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Respect and how people treat eachother really hasn't changed to a serious extent- certainly not just within 9 years.

People will get judged all the time on anything you can imagine.  Often very quickly and occasionally very off base.  Accept it and be yourself.


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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:47:10 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?



A courteous submissive is a pleasure to be around, and I don't find good manners indicative of spinelessness.
 
A submissive lacking in manners may still be submissive, but they're also likely a pain in the fundament.
 
 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:53:23 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Now, as to my question. For many submissives in the second group, those submissives in the first group are "dumb doormats" or "desperate". For many submissives in the first group, those in the second group are "sham submissives" or "closet manhaters"
How does anyone from either group know this for certain? Or are they just going by perception?


Well personally I think grouping the submissives as you have is rather useless and of no value what so-ever.  First... you have to have the assumption that your view of a submissive is universally applied... which is not!  Second you have to assume that what one considers a dumb doormat is going to also be universally applied.  Point is... your whole point of view is dependent on universally held views of the various groups.  What you might see as a submissive I just might see as a doormat.  what you see as a doormat I might see as rug.  we have various perceptions and definitions. 

Secondly, do I know for sure on any particular person or issue.  I only know as much as I perceive.  My perception is all I have to go on... now some will make a judgement on very little... some will want more Data!!  Sooner or later our perception will give us enough to make a judgement.  It is always a quesition is that judgement based on sound information/perceptions... is the person jumping the gun or did they really take the time to make an informed judgement.  this coupled with an individuals own principles, beliefs and values.  For example... the racist person only needs to percieve the color of a person's skin to make a judgement.  Their perception is rather narrow.... for all judgement is based on nothing more than a skin color.  what affects their judgement is not perception at all, but beliefs and maybe even past experience (parental influence).  Now what about the person that takes more time to learn about a person, what if they said the person is an asshole.  Is their judgement any better?  maybe maybe not.  What if you found out this opinion was because the so-so called asshole was his boss and fired him for stealing on the job.  Back to the racist... did you not make a judgement of the person right of the bat because he judged another by the color of someone's skin.  Are you going to get to know this racist that you first meet because of a one time perception, likely not.  Often, a behavior or belief is indicative of a group of values, beliefs and behaviors.  They become a red flag and we stay away from them.  How many female subs have blocked a male um trolll because of one singular email?  Is it reason enough to judge the person because of one perception?  yes is sure is... because we have certain expectations of behaviors.  So, some behaviors of individuals will immediately raise questions. like for example... I see a girl tell me that she has just meet the one... oh yeah really I say... yes she says we been talking a week and next week I will be moving to India to be with him.... I step quietly away from the train wreck.  Now it might not be a train wreck... but it is highy likely... my experience as given me this.

So really I ask.... What behaviors or actions seem to send up that big red flag... of "train wreck or "doormat"?

quote:


It seems to me that the only one(s) who would know for sure are those who are involved with those from the groups.


Well it seems to me that I don't have to be in a train wreck to see that thoses involved are um Hurt!  Or are you suggesting that I really don't know and that I should go ask the guy bleeding to death... are you hurt?  I think we can make reasonable judgements on what we percieve and yes we can know.  Thou not everyone is really that good at making reasonable judgments has been my experience.

quote:


What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?


well usually when I see a courteous person... I automatically see they are courteous.  When I see a person that is ill-manner....well I automatic see a ill-mannered person.  Now exactly why they happen to be courteous or ill-mannered is another thing all together.  The motivation of the individual may or may not be obvious in the given situation.  IE... the racist is kind and nice to the white guy that comes to his store to be served... then this dark skin person comes in the well mannered individual is suddenly highly ill-mannered.  some things show alot some show very little. 



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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:55:08 PM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline 		As Swayze said in Roadhouse, "There's a time to be nice and a time to not be nice." I am courteous in general to most all I meet, respect is different. That is earned and few earn it from me. If there is someone I am at odds with, I generally try to avoid them. If I can't and they are spiteful and nasty to me, I will address that and then move on and go about my business.

Whether the subs I meet/see are courteous and quiet or brash and sassy does not say anything about their submissiveness. Even those who are nasty and bitchy can still be submissives.

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Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 6:55:59 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Once again there seems to be this assumption that being courteous equals being not Domlike, or in the case of submissives, being a doormat. I just don't know why this keeps coming up.
If I run into anyone (Dom or sub) who is rude, I don't care if they are Dom or sub, they would simply be a jerk.

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Boycott Whales!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:01:23 PM   
aleshaDreams


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		Like you CreativeDominant I was raised to be polite to others, however in stating such when in chatrooms and /or watching threads and someone comes across as being disrespectful to others that is exactly how i interpret it, plainly as rudeness.  In most cases anothers attitude and disposition has no reflection of whether they are in fact a submissive or not or perhaps a doormat.   In some instances I visualize some submissives as potentially setting themselves up for such a existance and relative to the 'ole saying' treat others as you would want to be treated.   A more positive note though that directly reflects on my growth as a submissive, is the interaction aka reaction to agressive to passive submissives by other submissives and dominants. 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:03:05 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		What arbitrates courtesy........

you motherfuckers are a bunch of perverts
So?

what a nice looking group of people
So?
and does courteous enter into it at the moment you give me leave to tie you down and beat your ass?

Oh, Madam, you better know 45 safewords, please.....
Cunt, I don't give the glimmer of a fuck how many safewords you know..........

Can there be a distinction with no difference?
No, I accept that?

Explain the distinction.
Explain the difference.


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:03:53 PM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I learned long ago not to make assumptions about someone's orientation based on appearances.  Someone's appearance and/or actions may dissuade ME from pursuing a relationship with them but I do not automatically assume that because they acted/dressed/spoke/looked a certain way that they are not what it is they claim to be.

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~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:24:06 PM   
DominaRava


Posts: 76
Status: offline 		This is a poll, correct?

My Grandmother, a wonderful Lady, taught me "Good manners never go out of style."

That being said (Thank you Nan), being rude and obnoxious is little different than a child throwing a tantrum.   It is a pitiful attempt at a cry for attention. 

Unfortunately, the best way to see an ugly side of a person is to disagree or not be interested.  It is as if insults will make One more ameniable, or make the vulgar one more attractive.

Fortunately, my service in the armed forces, and some street wise friends taught me this form of communication also, LOL. 

Oh, the question.....
quote:

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?

No, and no.....but it may just make the difference between whether I wish to even talk to them or not!

****My opinion only.....take it or leave it, but have the courtesy (*chuckle*)not to attack it****

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:30:48 PM   
cynthiamarie


Posts: 205
Joined: 3/11/2005
From: Bluefield, WV, USA
Status: offline
quote:

What do you think? When you meet a courteous submissive, do you automatically assume that here is a submissive who is a doormat? When you meet a submissive who appears to have little in the way of manners/respect, do you automatically assume that they aren't really submissive or are just playing at it?


No to both questions.  It's been my pleasure to know several subs for over a year...and though they are all courteous, they are by no means doormats. 

I don't know if rude/insulting/scornful people are slaves, subs, SAMs,...or vanillas who hold stock in companies that sell high blood pressure and ulcer meds and um...go to BDSM sites to make sure some of us are converted into faithful customers of said medications... 

I can't judge their submission, but I can judge whether or not I enjoy their posts or personality. 

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 7:31:54 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Well, to me it's like this.

If a sub is rude, when unprovoked. Well, to me she's just a bitch, and probably could be a sub for a Dom that likes dealing with bitches. Not  my type, or definition, but sub she may be. But I wouldn't want to deal with it.

If a sub becomes rude, when provoked, Well, she's just defending herself. That's healthy in my view and would indicate a good quality to me.

If a sub doesn't ever bite back, when provoked, Well, she appears weak and unsure to me, and probably could be a sub for a Dom that really likes dealing with people that have no defense mechanisms. Not my type, or definition, but sub she may be. I don't want to deal with all that, though.

These of course are in reference to the way subs interact with people they are not in a relationship with. I just don't mesh with the first or third types, so I wouldn't not be interested in any relationship, even friendship, with anyone that had those qualities. sub/dom/friend/etc..

All of these are directly transferable to Doms or anybody else to by the way.



(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 8:52:26 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I look at courtesy as a sign of temperment.

I am very easy going, and I despise drama-others enjoy reactance.

It all sorts itself out-I get to avoid the brats-they get the Doms that like resistance play.

I don't let it get to me any more-it's all good.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 6/30/2006 9:52:27 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		What I find most interesting is those whining about a loss of respect and courtesy are in general those who least deserve it. 

(in reply to Caretakr)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 12:02:56 AM   
skittykitty


Posts: 40
Joined: 5/22/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Once again there seems to be this assumption that being courteous equals being not Domlike, or in the case of submissives, being a doormat. I just don't know why this keeps coming up.
If I run into anyone (Dom or sub) who is rude, I don't care if they are Dom or sub, they would simply be a jerk.


Damn, you posted what I was going to say.

Jerk first, Dom/Sub second.

one does not excuse the other



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...


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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:10:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		My whole problem with this type of thing is that in BDSM we try to correlate sexual roles with character and personality displayed in everyday life. I have never met a submissive submissive, though I have met many strident ones.

When women adopts a submissive role in a sexual situation or a relationship, it doesn't mean they are submissive by nature. It means they have found a mate they are happy to submit to. They have made THEIR choice!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:17:56 AM   
Taylore


Posts: 121
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		This slave has always believed it is important that you know yourself, and what it is that you want out of life, and relationships. To attain that, you must stand up for yourself and be heard.
This slave also belives in being courteous at all times. I think that courtesy and self-confidence can go hand in hand.
 
For those who speak their minds, I do believe that it can be done in a more courteous manner. Yet, I do not know these others personally, so I have no right to tell them how they should speak.
 
This slave does not believe herself a doormat simply because she obeys Master; or does not speak up when she feels strongly about something. There is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes, the best words heard are those not spoken in anger or disrespect.
Also, I do not judge those who behave differently than I would. I am myself, they are theirselves. Every relationship works differently. I use what works for me.
 
Just my own thoughts on the subject though.

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Taylore

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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:32:52 AM   
becca333


Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline 		Flamethrowers at the ready....

All of the truly great Doms I know are very polite.  To me, rudeness from a Dom is demeaning, it reduces him.  The best Doms I know are very controlled, very calm, they don't need to be rude and throw tantrums like a child because they have that still, controlled centre and that total assurance, that is the mark of a great Dom.

The great subs I know are very polite, too.  They're lovely people, very strong and together, and they regard good manners as the normal way to deal with anyone, Dom, sub or vanilla.

I've seen a rise in the brat factor - and I admit, loudly, to a prejudice against it.  Bratting used to be fun and teasing and a bit naughty.  Now it seems to be just plain rude, selfish, self-centred and deathly dull.  Those subs that are defined in the OP as 'sham submissives' etc sound to me like part of that wave of loud, obnoxious, egocentric, self-centred, manhating, immature brats. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Perceptions: What does behavior really indicate? - 7/1/2006 1:50:51 AM   
TxBadMan


Posts: 198
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Moody, Texas
Status: offline 		From a purely personal perspective, I perfer ladies that know what they want, are not afraid to say so, but know how to do so in a courteous manner. For those that act in a 'bratty' manner, I have no use for what-so-ever, and even less use for any words they may type or say. Matters not to me if they are only teasing or not.

_____________________________

Chris



(in reply to CreativeDominant)
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