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Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into ... - 9/10/2013 3:30:26 PM

naughtynick81

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http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/10/justice/girlfriend-abortion-case/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

> but those feelings quickly turned into a nightmare that won't let go of her.

> but those feelings quickly turned into a nightmare that won't let go of her.

Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?

I don't agree with this guy's actions, it’s a pretty sleazy thing to do, but imagine if the tables were turned. Man doesn’t want his child aborted, but girlfriend does it anyway. Who believes she would be charged with murder? No, it would be her “right,” because it’s “her body.” Using that logic, however, how could we come up with a murder charge against the boyfriend? If a woman can terminate a pregnancy at will and face no charges for the injury done to the child, then the most the boyfriend should reasonably face is a felony assault charge for drugging his girlfriend.

This is yet another case where the law clearly and explicitly demonstrates that men and women are not equal under the law, and most people – including women – do not want them to be.

These kinds of cases demonstrate that in some areas, women clearly have superior rights.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 3:39:52 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/10/justice/girlfriend-abortion-case/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews
> but those feelings quickly turned into a nightmare that won't let go of her.
> but those feelings quickly turned into a nightmare that won't let go of her.
Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?
I don't agree with this guy's actions, it’s a pretty sleazy thing to do, but imagine if the tables were turned. Man doesn’t want his child aborted, but girlfriend does it anyway. Who believes she would be charged with murder? No, it would be her “right,” because it’s “her body.” Using that logic, however, how could we come up with a murder charge against the boyfriend? If a woman can terminate a pregnancy at will and face no charges for the injury done to the child, then the most the boyfriend should reasonably face is a felony assault charge for drugging his girlfriend.
This is yet another case where the law clearly and explicitly demonstrates that men and women are not equal under the law, and most people – including women – do not want them to be.
These kinds of cases demonstrate that in some areas, women clearly have superior rights.

Your argument is flawed here. The male sperm donor doesn't have to carry a growing fetus in his body. The nurturing female incubator does. A person has more rights over his/her own body than the person's mate.

Let's say one of those wild and crazy lesbian couples abducts a guy and fucks and fucks and fucks him and gets pregnant. A couple weeks later, the non-pregnant one wants the pregnant one to abort. What do you think is going to be the end result of that? Since they are both women, whose rights are superior?

Yep, the one that's carrying the fetus. Imagine that.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 3:46:20 PM

naughtynick81

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So it's only "murder" when a man forces abortion?

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 3:50:41 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
So it's only "murder" when a man forces abortion?

It's murder when the incubator is forced to abort not of her own free will, regardless of it being a man or woman that does it.

As much as I agree that men are getting screwed by not having any say in it, it's still about her body, until the fetus is determined to be viable, and/or until it gains personhood.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 3:55:31 PM

metamorfosis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81
Would such sympathy exist for a man who wanted the kid while the woman forced the abortion?...This is yet another case where the law clearly and explicitly demonstrates that men and women are not equal under the law, and most people – including women – do not want them to be.

Sadly, it's yet another example of you willfully misrepresenting a situation for the sake of spin. This guy effectively assaulted his girlfriend. That is not equivalent to helplessly standing by while she aborted a pregnancy that he wanted carried to term.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 9/10/2013 3:56:45 PM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 4:00:50 PM

naughtynick81

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quote:

It's murder when the incubator is forced to abort not of her own free will, regardless of it being a man or woman that does it.

I am all in for abortion so I don't believe anyone should be convicted of murder in this case.

What simply bothers me in this particular scenario is the double standard.

If your stance is "murder", the way I see it, murder is murder regardless who does it and how it's done. It's the same crime being committed. Nothing has changed the actual crime it's self even if you do it from a billion different angles or ways.

My point is that the same standard should apply regardless who is doing it and what way they do it. Looking at the whole picture, it's still the same crime taking place.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 4:06:18 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

quote:

It's murder when the incubator is forced to abort not of her own free will, regardless of it being a man or woman that does it.

I am all in for abortion so I don't believe anyone should be convicted of murder in this case.
What simply bothers me in this particular scenario is the double standard.
If your stance is "murder", the way I see it, murder is murder regardless who does it and how it's done. It's the same crime being committed. Nothing has changed the actual crime it's self even if you do it from a billion different angles or ways.
My point is that the same standard should apply regardless who is doing it and what way they do it. Looking at the whole picture, it's still the same crime taking place.

And, that is where you are wrong. It is part of the woman's body until it gains personhood. Since it is part of her body, she has "jurisdiction." If she wants to keep it and someone else takes that choice away from her, that's worse than if she decides that she doesn't want it. After it gains personhood, it gains all the rights afforded to a person, making it murder regardless of who does what. The mother is the guardian and has authority over it, since it is part of her. That's why if she decides to have an abortion, she has that right.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 4:07:03 PM

DomKen

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FR
Do we need more proof of the inherently repugnant and stupid nature of the "men's rights movement"? Tricking a person into taking a drug, which could have had any number of effects, is one of the most despicable acts one person can do to another and is never justifiable or defendable and is not at all comparable to living with the consequences of consensual sex.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 4:10:04 PM

getoutnow

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quote:

but it was Lee's dream to have a child

LMAO. This is one of the reasons why I wont date single moms on here on CM. They never aspired to anything else than having children.

Single moms here destroy guys who have no kids.

1) You end up paying for their sprogs.
2) You get told things like "But we are a family now"
3) The single mom double dips, she gets welfare, she gets the dad to pay and then she gets the new man to pay, all for her child.
4) In the beginning you find yourself with a lot of time with the MOM. But when you get married that time is gone. Infact your time is now hers. You have to do as you are told as you are a family now. Yes trips here and there with her demon spawn as you the taxi driver are in store. What you didnt know is there was an army of her friends doing jobs for her when she was dating you. Now she is married, she and her friends have to sucker someone else to marry one of her friends with a kid.
5) When the child is a teen, they will tell the new "step dad". you are not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do.
6) When the child gets married, guess who has to pay? Yeah the new dad. and guess what, he'll be the one in the back row or never even invited.
7) When the child grows up, is another loser like her mom and living with the new dad at 21. Gone are the dreams where you think they will flock the nest and you'll have privacy with the mom. Nope think again.
8) Finally and the death knell. Single moms who have a kid or two kids, usually dont want kids any more. Guess what matey, for all intents purposes you are infertile. Who is gonna have your own kids now?

I have seen all these things happen and worse and many more.

Single guys reading this. Stay away from Single MOMs. You have been warned!

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 4:14:13 PM

hlen5

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If I thought Nick could actually hear it, I'd agree that it's unfair for the bio-Dad to not have a say in a pregnancy.

If the man didn't want a pregnancy to result, he should have talked about contraception with the woman. Hopefully if the contraception doesn't work they know/care for each other well enough to come to a mutual decision.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 5:29:22 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: getoutnow
Single guys reading this. Stay away from Single MOMs. You have been warned!

Dude... seriously? What if there are some of us who have an IQ over 10? When I look at a single mom I'm looking at a package deal and I don't resent it. I simply choose whether I want the package or not... just the same as a potential partner without children. All of the items you listed sound like pretty normal human things to me. The fact that you are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for a child doesn't mean anything about anyone other than you. It's your choice and that's fine. But do try to remember that not everyone feels the way you do (thankfully).

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 5:30:55 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
If I thought Nick could actually hear it, I'd agree that it's unfair for the bio-Dad to not have a say in a pregnancy.

Well I heard it and thanks. Although I still think that this bit of unfairness is trumped by the woman's right to her own body. I just wish such decisions also carried the financial implications along with them.... you want to keep the baby and the other partner doesn't? Fine. Then keep it and pay for it. Yeah, that's not a perfect solution either. I doubt there is a perfect solution.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 5:45:05 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do we need more proof of the inherently repugnant and stupid nature of the "men's rights movement"? Tricking a person into taking a drug, which could have had any number of effects, is one of the most despicable acts one person can do to another and is never justifiable or defendable and is not at all comparable to living with the consequences of consensual sex.

I wasn't aware that tricking women into abortions was a platform of the men's rights movement. Can you direct me to your source?

K.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 5:46:14 PM

metamorfosis

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I'm having trouble understanding how you get from this...

quote:

but it was Lee's dream to have a child

to this...

quote:

LMAO. This is one of the reasons why I wont date single moms on here on CM. They never aspired to anything else than having children...Single moms here destroy guys who have no kids.

Single guys reading this. Stay away from Single MOMs. You have been warned!

Are you suggesting this woman tricked her boyfriend into getting her pregnant as some form of entrapment? If that is your claim, I'll give you and the boyfriend the same advice. No need to stay away from single moms, just stay away from losers and you should be fine.

That said, I believe there is a double standard in how much sympathy society gives women versus men in the event of the loss of a desired pregnancy.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:01:29 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do we need more proof of the inherently repugnant and stupid nature of the "men's rights movement"? Tricking a person into taking a drug, which could have had any number of effects, is one of the most despicable acts one person can do to another and is never justifiable or defendable and is not at all comparable to living with the consequences of consensual sex.

I wasn't aware that tricking women into abortions was a platform of the men's rights movement. Can you direct me to your source?

K.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4543074

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:03:35 PM

Oneechan

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there's a clear logical failure here.

if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder.

if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder.

you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it.

(in reply to metamorfosis)

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:05:15 PM

naughtynick81

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Domken

Firstly, pointing out anything I say is not an example of that opinion being a platform of the men's rights movement. That said, I don't even consider myself to be an MRA.

Secondly, what part of this don't you understand? Could I have said this more clearly?

quote:

I don't agree with this guy's actions, it’s a pretty sleazy thing to do

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:06:25 PM

naughtynick81

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Oneechan

Spot on! Thank goodness there are more people who can see the light.

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:10:10 PM

DaddySatyr

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In quite a few states, the statute isn't murder until the fetus surpasses the weeks set by law for on-demand abortion.

For example: In New Jersey a woman can abort her child up until 24 weeks (unless they've changed it, recently). In order for the man to be charged with murder, in a case similar to this, the fetus would have to be over 24 weeks.

ETA: Well, an ambitious prosecutor might try to charge it but 6:5 and pick 'em, the guy wouldn't get convicted because according to the law (and the lunatics with blood dripping off their fangs); what's inside the woman isn't a person until 24 weeks gestation.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 9/10/2013 6:36:25 PM >

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RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend i... - 9/10/2013 6:35:58 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

there's a clear logical failure here.

if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder.

if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder.

you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it.

John Andrew Welden pleaded guilty Monday to federal charges of product tampering and mail fraud, admitting in court, as he had to detectives, that he slipped his ex-girlfriend an abortion drug.

Read more: http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/john-andrew-welden-pleads-guilty-in-tampa-abortion-pill-case/2140798

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