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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 1:34:00 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
My view is that if they're breaking into my home, they've already decided to do harm.

That was my view too. Out on the street I might have a broader view of things but someone breaking into my home is already a clear and present danger in my mind. How much time am I to spend sorting out whether the person might do more than steal stuff?

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 1:37:45 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

Depends on the state...also it depends on if intent was to kill them.

I would guess the majorities intent would be to stop them, not necessarily kill them.

Are you willing to bet your "guess" against 8 years in the joint...in california?
People talk all kinds of shit about what they would do.
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.
If you pop someone in your home and you cannot prove that it was self defense the chances of you going to jail are high.
There is an active thread here,now about a lady who got 20 years for firing a warning shot.
All this chair born ranger chin music is just that... chair born ranger chin music.

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:04:41 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.

I hate to admit it but I have to actually agree with you here. thompson. The only thing I would add is that in my opinion, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at anyone unless you're prepared to kill them and deal with the consequences. For me. the idea of "shooting to wound" is a notion we believe is appropriate because we've seen too many movies and TV shows. If you just want to wound someone then don't use a gun.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:09:55 PM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR-

there was a case here (in the last 2 or 3 days) where 3 people broke into a house.. they were fleeing the home and the homeowner chased after them, sticking a gun in the open window of a vehicle and shooting the female robber (the 2 robber dudes got away).. anyway, he killed her.. I don't know if the homeowner will be charged or not but neighbors said on tv they supported him and he did the right thing.. this kinda thing makes me cringe (since I come from a country with gun control laws and doing this would land you in jail with a fairly long sentence, fer sure).. I do think homeowners have the right to defend themselves but chasing after and killing someone running away is not simply defending themselves, imo..



A case here in UK 5-10 years ago of the same kind - burglar shot in the back while fleeing. The house owner was sent to jail for manslaughter, and I happen to agree with that.

But defending yourself or yours against attack is always a human right.


< Message edited by egern -- 9/27/2013 2:19:58 PM >

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:13:02 PM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion as to what is justifiable self defense.
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.
Some seem to think that an assailant must do much more, what do you think?


The law here is that defending yourself must be in proportion to the attack. You cannot - here - shoot at someone attacking you with a stick, for instance, or use a knife against bare fists.

Sounds reasonable, but isn't always, if you are a small person you do not have a chance if your assailant is much bigger unless you have a better weapon.

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:16:48 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Question should the use of deadly force by a civilian be equal that of a member of law enforcement?



Of course not. Everyone knows a civilian isn't worth as much as a cop.

_____________________________

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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:17:24 PM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

As someone who has woken to burglars in my home...its frightening and I'd be hard pressed to ask any questions beforehand. Luckily at the time I had a large dog and his bark, combined with screaming "I'm letting my dog out", got them to leave. At the time, I didn't own a gun but thats been remedied for many, many years. Lol.

No one can say how they'd react until you're in the moment, but now that I have children, I suspect Id point and shoot.



My guess is that you could be accused of excessive violence, especially if you had not warned or were not threatened by the burglar. Difficult situation.

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:22:31 PM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Question should the use of deadly force by a civilian be equal that of a member of law enforcement?



Of course not. Everyone knows a civilian isn't worth as much as a cop.


I think so too - many stories of people trying to defend or attack themselves with a weapon only to have it taken away and used against them.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:28:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.

I hate to admit it but I have to actually agree with you here. thompson.
Why should you hate that I am right?


quote:

The only thing I would add is that in my opinion, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at anyone unless you're prepared to kill them and deal with the consequences.


You do not have to kill someone to stop them. If you cannot hit what you aim at you should not have a firearm.


quote:

For me. the idea of "shooting to wound" is a notion we believe is appropriate because we've seen too many movies and TV shows. If you just want to wound someone then don't use a gun.

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/27/2013 2:30:05 PM >

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:30:39 PM   
Yachtie


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Status: offline 		FR -

So many say that property itself is not defensible. Only against an act of aggression is defensible.

Scenario - Imagine three or four people showing up at your door, each equipped with a video camera. They have a cell blocker and have cut your landlines. They tell you that they have zero intention to harm you but that they shall take what they want. They also declare that any attempt to stop them, which would necessarily require some sort of bodily engagement, would be an act of aggression and therefore could be justly defended against by the robbers, even to the use of deadly force.

Given the way defensive issues are being jockeyed with, would the robbers have the upper-hand? Like a bully on the schoolyard, how would one stop them from looking through one's pack without the use of some form of aggression?











_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:32:06 PM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern



The law here is that defending yourself must be in proportion to the attack. You cannot - here - shoot at someone attacking you with a stick, for instance, or use a knife against bare fists.

Sounds reasonable, but isn't always, if you are a small person you do not have a chance if your assailant is much bigger unless you have a better weapon.


That's not strictly true. You can shoot someone if you have a reasonable fear of being killed. You have to demonstrate that you have a reasonable fear though.

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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:32:38 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Question should the use of deadly force by a civilian be equal that of a member of law enforcement?



Of course not. Everyone knows a civilian isn't worth as much as a cop.


I think so too - many stories of people trying to defend or attack themselves with a weapon only to have it taken away and used against them.




Guess you missed the wink part.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:34:39 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion as to what is justifiable self defense.
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.
Some seem to think that an assailant must do much more, what do you think?


The front door or a window.

That pretty much says it all.

Then they become garden mulch.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:37:53 PM   
DsBound


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

Depends on the state...also it depends on if intent was to kill them.

I would guess the majorities intent would be to stop them, not necessarily kill them.

Are you willing to bet your "guess" against 8 years in the joint...in california?
People talk all kinds of shit about what they would do.
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.
If you pop someone in your home and you cannot prove that it was self defense the chances of you going to jail are high.
There is an active thread here,now about a lady who got 20 years for firing a warning shot.
All this chair born ranger chin music is just that... chair born ranger chin music.


Another reason Id never move to CA. Lol


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:50:20 PM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


You do not have to kill someone to stop them. If you cannot hit what you aim at you should not have a firearm.


quote:

For me. the idea of "shooting to wound" is a notion we believe is appropriate because we've seen too many movies and TV shows. If you just want to wound someone then don't use a gun.

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?


I think having a great aim is needed and the intent to kill would not be there, but in the middle of it all if the person ends up dead they should've made better life choices. Aim small, miss small.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 2:52:51 PM   
DsBound


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


You do not have to kill someone to stop them. If you cannot hit what you aim at you should not have a firearm.


quote:

For me. the idea of "shooting to wound" is a notion we believe is appropriate because we've seen too many movies and TV shows. If you just want to wound someone then don't use a gun.

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?


I think having a great aim is needed and the intent to kill would not be there, but in the middle of it all if the person ends up dead they should've made better life choices. Aim small, miss small.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 3:41:37 PM   
MasterCaneman


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Joined: 3/21/2013
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It's hard to make a call like that in an environment like this. If someone violates my home, all bets are off. I won't shoot to kill nor wound, I will shoot to stop. If they live or die is entirely up to chance and fate. And yes, I am a very good shot. I'm also human, and that means that no matter how much practice I've taken, I will also be party to the circumstances regarding the situation. If someone attempted to enter my den right now, I could take some time to consider other means by which to deal with them. If it happened at oh-dark-thirty and I'm still half-asleep, my response will be much different.

I know all too well what happens when a human life is taken, irregardless of whether or not it was a sanctioned kill. So do the professionals, which is why people are trained to shoot center mass rather than head shots. It's as much to introduce the element of chance in mortality as it is to lessen the chances of a clean miss. I won't discuss minutiae of whether it was a B&E, someone taking shit from my car, or what. Those are situational questions that can only be answered within the context of the situation itself. I can't say "If X happens, I'll do Y and then Z", because it would be disingenuous to surmise. You can tailor your training to similar responses, but in the end, it all depends on the situation.

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The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 3:48:04 PM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why should you hate that I am right?




quote:

quote:

The only thing I would add is that in my opinion, you shouldn't be pointing a gun at anyone unless you're prepared to kill them and deal with the consequences.

You do not have to kill someone to stop them.

True. But if you feel you have to shoot someone to stop them then you should be prepared for the consequences if they die. Even if that isn't your intent. Considering that point, you may as well shoot to kill. If you don't want to risk killing someone then make a different choice than using a gun.

Everyone can make their own judgement call but when it comes to guns, personally, I don't play "cowboy". If I'm pointing it at you then I'm prepared to kill you. If I'm going to pull the trigger then I intend to kill you.


quote:

If you cannot hit what you aim at you should not have a firearm.

...unless you're still practicing how to use it proficiently.


quote:

quote:

For me. the idea of "shooting to wound" is a notion we believe is appropriate because we've seen too many movies and TV shows. If you just want to wound someone then don't use a gun.

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?

Because unlike a baseball bat, knife, or brick, a gun's only intended purpose is to be a deadly tool. That is what they are for and that is how they are treated under the law. So again, I simply suggest that if you don't want to risk killing someone then make a different choice than using a gun.


_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 3:58:23 PM   
jola37


Posts: 433
Joined: 7/8/2013
Status: offline 		Regardless of the law or anything else, if a person decides to break into another's home, they have crossed a line. For the homeowner, it is unreasonable to assume they know the intentions of the intruder, so I think that proportionate force is fair.

If you see someone in the daytime in your garden shed stealing tools (outside of your house), then confronting them and killing them with a gun is in my view disproportionate. You could have called the police.

If you are awoken in the middle of the night and you hear them coming up the stairs, then I think it's fine to shoot them as you have no idea what their intentions were. Their intentions at the very best will cause you harm and at worst death. They have made their choice and there is no reason I can see why they don't have to live by it.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 4:16:25 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Can you say for a fact they just want to steal and leave? Are you going to discuss this with them first or just wait and see.

If I have a gun in my hand I do not have to discuss a mother fucking thing.
The question is would you kill someone for stealing your shit?
Would you kill someone for breaking into your home?
We are not talking about a gun fight. We are not talking about someone attacking you.
If you think it is a bullshit question perhaps you might pose that question to a cop and see what he tells you about how much time you could do for shooting someone who had broke into your home and is stealng your shit but is not threatning your life.


In Alabama they will hold you long enough to get your statement, that is the law.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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