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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 2:42:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If someone is a gun happy asshole then yes they shoot the kid...because we all know a wallet is worth more than a life even if it is a stupid kid making a mistake...I don't shoot unless I have to.

If I have a lock on my bedroom door it is locked and I call the police... If I can get my family out by the back door I leave and call the police... If I'm a gun happy asshole I start shooting in my own home, if I don't have to, maybe killing a son or daughter in the process.

If I see a man breaking into your house I will call the police... I will not pull a gun and shoot him only a gun happy asshole would.

If I see a fight on the street I do not pull a gun... decide who is at fault and start shooting... I would be a dumb assed gun happy asshole to do so without knowing the circumstances...and still one even if I did.

If I see a suspicious person walking in my neighborhood I will not confront them then when they retaliate in anger feel I have the right to shoot them... Only a gun happy asshole would.

Just reading all the ” I’ll kill for what is MINE” posts disgusts me. I hate thieves just as much as the next man but I happen to believe the life of a thief is just as important and precious as the life of an unborn child. I am not a hypocrite.

Come to think of it maybe I am a hypocrite because I do believe in CP but at least I'm not a total gun happy asshole hypocrite.

Butch



< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/28/2013 3:10:43 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 5:04:30 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR-

there was a case here (in the last 2 or 3 days) where 3 people broke into a house.. they were fleeing the home and the homeowner chased after them, sticking a gun in the open window of a vehicle and shooting the female robber (the 2 robber dudes got away).. anyway, he killed her.. I don't know if the homeowner will be charged or not but neighbors said on tv they supported him and he did the right thing.. this kinda thing makes me cringe (since I come from a country with gun control laws and doing this would land you in jail with a fairly long sentence, fer sure).. I do think homeowners have the right to defend themselves but chasing after and killing someone running away is not simply defending themselves, imo..


In most places in the US, the homeowner would go to prison for that. You have a right to defend your home and fend off intruders, but once you've done that, your right to harm them ends. You don't have the right to chase someone down after they've left your property and shoot them. At that point, write down their plates and call the cops.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 5:10:26 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

Depends on the state...also it depends on if intent was to kill them.

I would guess the majorities intent would be to stop them, not necessarily kill them.

Are you willing to bet your "guess" against 8 years in the joint...in california?
People talk all kinds of shit about what they would do.
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.
If you pop someone in your home and you cannot prove that it was self defense the chances of you going to jail are high.
There is an active thread here,now about a lady who got 20 years for firing a warning shot.
All this chair born ranger chin music is just that... chair born ranger chin music.

lemme think about that for like ONE SECOND, MAYBE 8 years in jail or MAYBE dead, I'll take the 8 years!

That is a rather filippant answer to a situation I did not sugest.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 5:11:20 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
A 14 year old with a 3 in blade can kill you if you try to tae it away so I guess you are "morally obligated " to give him your wallet


It'd be both idiotic and immoral to kill someone over a credit card you can cancel and a driver's license you can replace.

quote:

If there is a burglar in your house you won't know till you are inside. He isn't going to give you a time out till the cops arrive.


Eh, not necessarily. They could have the getaway car out in the driveway and the door open. This happened to a guy in my town last year. He could've - should've - called the cops and waited outside. Instead, he decided to run inside and fight the burglar, and ended up in ICU with stab wounds, AND the burglar got away.

quote:

You have to run from the confrontation , but he doesn't ?


That's the law in most places, yeah.

quote:

If he is in your house where are you to retreat to?


The duty to retreat doesn't apply if you're in your home.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 5:13:03 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.

Are we are suppose to believe that the police department you claim to work for has a policy that it is proper to use deadly force to protect private property?
Have you ever wondered why cops wear body armor?
Perhaps it is cops that have this sort of attitude?


In my state they do.


I can't seem to find that on google. Can you help me out here with some sort of site?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 7:33:03 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		So in your first example, would you suggest that people should be legally required to turn their back and run, or try to retreat while backpedalling 'if possible', before they are allowed to apply any sort of defensive force against the person with the knife?



quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Self defense with what? If you are talking a killing weapon it would be different than with fists for instance.

I would say you would be justified in using killing force only if your life or another life you feel responsible for were in mortal danger and you could not retreat from the altercation.

If say a 14 year old comes up to you on a street with a 3 inch pocket knife and demands your money you would not be justified in pulling your Glock and putting 6 rounds in his head.

If you come home and see a burglar in your house you should call the police not barge in and start shooting.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to retreat.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to warn and apprehend.

You have no moral right to be judge jury and executioner when you are the victim of or witness to a crime.

Butch


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 7:39:09 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Those may be your criteria, but they don't all have a basis in law.

Even in states where there are such breaking and entering laws, there are exceptions (for example, the police/EMTs/firefighters in the course of their duties cannot be legally shot, breaking in or no, dog or no).

Killing over trespassing is of course, a good way to lose the property you were 'defending' (one way or another).


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If the individual meets any of the following criteria.

1) Breaks into my home.

2) Physically threatens me or my family.

3) (Gotta love Texas for this one) if he physically tries to harm my dog on my property or while I have my dog on a leash.

4) Is on my property illegally (I have no trespassing signs everywhere)


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 7:42:27 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Look, I dont care if you agree or not, but if some idiot pulls a weapon on me, he is going to be facing a 1911 loaded with hydroshocks. If he decides to press the attack, he is going to get a whole big enough for a dump truck to drive through appear in his chest.

If he appears to be younger than 16, I will ask him just how stupid he wants to be, after that if he presses the issue, see above.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 8:50:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So in your first example, would you suggest that people should be legally required to turn their back and run, or try to retreat while backpedalling 'if possible', before they are allowed to apply any sort of defensive force against the person with the knife?


If the only choice I had was kill the boy or give him my wallet I would, and you should, give the wallet...It is not worth a life nor is that situation justification for deadly force. Now if you give him the wallet and he then tries to stab you anyway then yes you would be justified...But killing for THINGS should never be the first choice.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 8:52:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

If he decides to press the attack


And this is the correct action in the situation...not shoot first.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:36:11 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If the individual meets any of the following criteria.

1) Breaks into my home.

2) Physically threatens me or my family.

3) (Gotta love Texas for this one) if he physically tries to harm my dog on my property or while I have my dog on a leash.

4) Is on my property illegally (I have no trespassing signs everywhere)

God bless Texas

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:40:07 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		You people do know that the self defense or property defense argument would not be necessary if it were legal to use anti personal devices to deter illegal entry onto private property.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:40:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		It'd be both idiotic and immoral to kill someone over a credit card you can cancel and a driver's license you can replace.

So you let him close with you and hope for the best.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:41:48 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		That's the law in most places, yeah.

In civilized places like Alabama you don't have to.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:43:20 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Eh, not necessarily. They could have the getaway car out in the driveway and the door open. This happened to a guy in my town last year. He could've - should've - called the cops and waited outside. Instead, he decided to run inside and fight the burglar, and ended up in ICU with stab wounds, AND the burglar got away.


And they always hang out those burglar at work signs.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:44:25 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

If he decides to press the attack


And this is the correct action in the situation...not shoot first.

Butch

How close must he get before you decide that?

Ever been cut? I have. It can happen is just a few tenths of a second. Being cut isn't that bad but the healing fucking HURTS.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:45:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		The duty to retreat doesn't apply if you're in your home.

But if he is only taking things so you can't try to stop him that would be morally wrong.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:50:05 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So in your first example, would you suggest that people should be legally required to turn their back and run, or try to retreat while backpedalling 'if possible', before they are allowed to apply any sort of defensive force against the person with the knife?


If the only choice I had was kill the boy or give him my wallet I would, and you should, give the wallet...It is not worth a life nor is that situation justification for deadly force. Now if you give him the wallet and he then tries to stab you anyway then yes you would be justified...But killing for THINGS should never be the first choice.

Butch

But before you take action you make sure he is in what he considers the ideal attack position and starts slashing then you can try to fight back.
How about this, if he keeps coming when he sees that you are armed it is reasonable to think he intends to hurt you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:52:22 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Trespassing is 'pulling a weapon on you'? You might want to actually have a conversation with a lawyer, before you act on these fantasies.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I dont care if you agree or not, but if some idiot pulls a weapon on me, he is going to be facing a 1911 loaded with hydroshocks. If he decides to press the attack, he is going to get a whole big enough for a dump truck to drive through appear in his chest.

If he appears to be younger than 16, I will ask him just how stupid he wants to be, after that if he presses the issue, see above.


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:53:43 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		In the few places that still have 'must retreat' laws, it most certainly can apply in your home.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The duty to retreat doesn't apply if you're in your home.

But if he is only taking things so you can't try to stop him that would be morally wrong.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 100
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