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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 4:18:21 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

I would guess the majorities intent would be to stop them, not necessarily kill them.

True, 3 .45s to the chest disables them real quick.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DsBound)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 4:23:20 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern



The law here is that defending yourself must be in proportion to the attack. You cannot - here - shoot at someone attacking you with a stick, for instance, or use a knife against bare fists.

Sounds reasonable, but isn't always, if you are a small person you do not have a chance if your assailant is much bigger unless you have a better weapon.


That's not strictly true. You can shoot someone if you have a reasonable fear of being killed. You have to demonstrate that you have a reasonable fear though.

Here the fact that they broke into your makes your fear reasonable.
We also have innocent until proven guilty so they have to prove your fear wasn't reasonable.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 4:36:26 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion as to what is justifiable self defense.
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.
Some seem to think that an assailant must do much more, what do you think?

If by fair game you mean that you will kill them?

Allow me to elaborate on my previous answer.
I would shoot to disable.
I would aim at the chest, this is how I have been trained from 9 years old on.
I carry a .45,or at home a 12 ga.
These in the chest tend to be fatal.
Death is very disabling.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 4:37:57 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion as to what is justifiable self defense.
My personal view is that when they break in to your home, or pull a weapon on you they are fair game.
Some seem to think that an assailant must do much more, what do you think?

If by fair game you mean that you will kill them?

YES

You would kill someone for breaking into your home?
You would kill someone for stealing your things?


Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.


_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 5:53:49 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?


I have locks on my doors and windows in an effort to stop them without killing them.

When someone forces their way into my home, they have chosen the path and have accepted the risk. It is not my role to protect someone that has decided to violate the measures I have put into place.




_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 6:42:10 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?


I have locks on my doors and windows in an effort to stop them without killing them.

When someone forces their way into my home, they have chosen the path and have accepted the risk. It is not my role to protect someone that has decided to violate the measures I have put into place.





Whose mother fucking life do you think I care the most about here.yours or theres?
Let me give you a clue.
I have first hand knowledge about this shit.
I have first hand knowledge how much fucking money it cost to defend yourself.
I have first hand knowledge how much fucking time it takes to defend yourself.
I have first hand kowledge how little the system cares about right and wrong. All they care about is body count aka conviction ratio.
I have first hand knowledge on how you can be denied bail and spend months in jail just trying to get bail.
I have first hand knowledge on how much justice cost.
Trust me you would not have any fun in the joint.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 6:43:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: egern



The law here is that defending yourself must be in proportion to the attack. You cannot - here - shoot at someone attacking you with a stick, for instance, or use a knife against bare fists.

Sounds reasonable, but isn't always, if you are a small person you do not have a chance if your assailant is much bigger unless you have a better weapon.


That's not strictly true. You can shoot someone if you have a reasonable fear of being killed. You have to demonstrate that you have a reasonable fear though.

Here the fact that they broke into your makes your fear reasonable.
We also have innocent until proven guilty so they have to prove your fear wasn't reasonable.



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 6:49:05 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.

Are we are suppose to believe that the police department you claim to work for has a policy that it is proper to use deadly force to protect private property?
Have you ever wondered why cops wear body armor?
Perhaps it is cops that have this sort of attitude?

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 8:46:14 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.

Are we are suppose to believe that the police department you claim to work for has a policy that it is proper to use deadly force to protect private property?
Have you ever wondered why cops wear body armor?
Perhaps it is cops that have this sort of attitude?


In my state they do.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 8:47:26 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		I see them as occupying 2 overlapping spheres. There is a large area of self defense in which no gun need be fired, some of the principles on that topic carry over to gun use, some don't.

As an example, I don't believe that any baseball bat has ever passed through the body of a criminal and travelled a hundred feet to kill an innocent child in a schoolyard.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminChi

FR,

Y'all can have a (mostly) unmoderated discussion about this here: ***Unmoderated Gun rights debate - Self Defense to 2nd Amendment ***



< Message edited by EdBowie -- 9/27/2013 9:30:58 PM >

(in reply to VideoAdminChi)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 8:49:46 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		There is no state in America where the police can ignore the Supreme Court ruling in Garner v. Tenn, that there must be much more than mere protection of property to justify deadly force.

And if the police can't shoot you in the back for running away with a can of gas, neither should the people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.

Are we are suppose to believe that the police department you claim to work for has a policy that it is proper to use deadly force to protect private property?
Have you ever wondered why cops wear body armor?
Perhaps it is cops that have this sort of attitude?


In my state they do.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 8:53:06 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		That varies by location.

Not every place has added the automatic presumption of being a deadly threat to mere breaking and entering... but some have.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not everyone wants to kill someone. If you can stop them without killing them why kill them?


I have locks on my doors and windows in an effort to stop them without killing them.

When someone forces their way into my home, they have chosen the path and have accepted the risk. It is not my role to protect someone that has decided to violate the measures I have put into place.





(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/27/2013 9:22:39 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

There is no state in America where the police can ignore the Supreme Court ruling in Garner v. Tenn, that there must be much more than mere protection of property to justify deadly force.

And if the police can't shoot you in the back for running away with a can of gas, neither should the people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Absolutely, fuck them, they should have chosen a less riskier career, or an easier target... One not likely to fight to protect what is theirs.

Human life is cheap, we see that every day... It's worth less than the bullet used to kill them.

Are we are suppose to believe that the police department you claim to work for has a policy that it is proper to use deadly force to protect private property?
Have you ever wondered why cops wear body armor?
Perhaps it is cops that have this sort of attitude?


In my state they do.



Here you are in trouble if you shoot them in the back.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 8:42:23 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Self defense with what? If you are talking a killing weapon it would be different than with fists for instance.

I would say you would be justified in using killing force only if your life or another life you feel responsible for were in mortal danger and you could not retreat from the altercation.

If say a 14 year old comes up to you on a street with a 3 inch pocket knife and demands your money you would not be justified in pulling your Glock and putting 6 rounds in his head.

If you come home and see a burglar in your house you should call the police not barge in and start shooting.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to retreat.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to warn and apprehend.

You have no moral right to be judge jury and executioner when you are the victim of or witness to a crime.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/28/2013 8:43:15 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:24:30 AM   
BitYakin


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Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

Depends on the state...also it depends on if intent was to kill them.

I would guess the majorities intent would be to stop them, not necessarily kill them.

Are you willing to bet your "guess" against 8 years in the joint...in california?
People talk all kinds of shit about what they would do.
I am only sugesting that one should check what the law is in their location and act accordingly.
If you pop someone in your home and you cannot prove that it was self defense the chances of you going to jail are high.
There is an active thread here,now about a lady who got 20 years for firing a warning shot.
All this chair born ranger chin music is just that... chair born ranger chin music.

lemme think about that for like ONE SECOND, MAYBE 8 years in jail or MAYBE dead, I'll take the 8 years!

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:25:24 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Self defense with what? If you are talking a killing weapon it would be different than with fists for instance.

I would say you would be justified in using killing force only if your life or another life you feel responsible for were in mortal danger and you could not retreat from the altercation.

If say a 14 year old comes up to you on a street with a 3 inch pocket knife and demands your money you would not be justified in pulling your Glock and putting 6 rounds in his head.

If you come home and see a burglar in your house you should call the police not barge in and start shooting.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to retreat.

You are never justified in using deadly force when you have the ability to warn and apprehend.

You have no moral right to be judge jury and executioner when you are the victim of or witness to a crime.

Butch

A 14 year old with a 3 in blade can kill you if you try to tae it away so I guess you are "morally obligated " to give him your wallet
If there is a burglar in your house you won't know till you are inside. He isn't going to give you a time out till the cops arrive.

You have to run from the confrontation , but he doesn't ?

When he pulls a weapon it is too late to warn or retreat.
If he is in your house where are you to retreat to?
I am willing to apprehend if he surrenders upon seeing that I will resist on his terms.
So the morally correct thing to do when you see someone being beaten to death is call the cops wait for them and hope they don't come after you.
Do you really believe that using whatever force is needed to stop someone from harming you or another is being judge jury and executioner?

What a sick viewpoint.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 10:41:02 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		If say a 14 year old comes up to you on a street with a 3 inch pocket knife and demands your money you would not be justified in pulling your Glock and putting 6 rounds in his head.


Three points

1 I don't like glocks
2 If you know what you are doing you would never aim at the head
3 This is the sort of situation for which I carry a sword cane

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 11:45:55 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
1 I don't like glocks

I'm typically a Ruger man, myself.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 12:34:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
1 I don't like glocks

I'm typically a Ruger man, myself.

Yep that is my preference.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 12:46:21 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		If the individual meets any of the following criteria.

1) Breaks into my home.

2) Physically threatens me or my family.

3) (Gotta love Texas for this one) if he physically tries to harm my dog on my property or while I have my dog on a leash.

4) Is on my property illegally (I have no trespassing signs everywhere)

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 80
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