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RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 9:57:56 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Trespassing is 'pulling a weapon on you'? You might want to actually have a conversation with a lawyer, before you act on these fantasies.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I dont care if you agree or not, but if some idiot pulls a weapon on me, he is going to be facing a 1911 loaded with hydroshocks. If he decides to press the attack, he is going to get a whole big enough for a dump truck to drive through appear in his chest.

If he appears to be younger than 16, I will ask him just how stupid he wants to be, after that if he presses the issue, see above.




If a property is posted, as mine is, and a person crosses onto your property at any point other than a valid entry point, then said individual is acting in an illegal manner. He will find himself detained if he is unarmed, if he is armed, then he will find himself with an extra hole in his anatomy.

I am quite well versed in trespassing law in the state of Texas.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 10:02:04 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		This thread isn't about gun violence, it is about the right to self defense by any means... pepper spray, hands, feet, another knife... all of which may or may not be lethal.

Some of your conditions seem a bit risky. You can't use force against a knife wielding attacker until after you give them the wallet and they then try to stab you?
And only that after you try a possibly unsafe retreat?

Am I missing something? I don't see why the well being of the attacker/rapist/would-be-criminal comes first, and that of the victim be subordinate to jumping through such hoops.




quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So in your first example, would you suggest that people should be legally required to turn their back and run, or try to retreat while backpedalling 'if possible', before they are allowed to apply any sort of defensive force against the person with the knife?


If the only choice I had was kill the boy or give him my wallet I would, and you should, give the wallet...It is not worth a life nor is that situation justification for deadly force. Now if you give him the wallet and he then tries to stab you anyway then yes you would be justified...But killing for THINGS should never be the first choice.

Butch


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 10:07:27 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Trespass is a misdemeanor in Texas, and there is no death penalty for misdemeanors in any state.

I sincerely hope you never have to find out how dead wrong your shoot 'em up myths are in real life.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Trespassing is 'pulling a weapon on you'? You might want to actually have a conversation with a lawyer, before you act on these fantasies.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I dont care if you agree or not, but if some idiot pulls a weapon on me, he is going to be facing a 1911 loaded with hydroshocks. If he decides to press the attack, he is going to get a whole big enough for a dump truck to drive through appear in his chest.

If he appears to be younger than 16, I will ask him just how stupid he wants to be, after that if he presses the issue, see above.




If a property is posted, as mine is, and a person crosses onto your property at any point other than a valid entry point, then said individual is acting in an illegal manner. He will find himself detained if he is unarmed, if he is armed, then he will find himself with an extra hole in his anatomy.

I am quite well versed in trespassing law in the state of Texas.


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 10:23:42 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Trespass is a misdemeanor in Texas, and there is no death penalty for misdemeanors in any state.

I sincerely hope you never have to find out how dead wrong your shoot 'em up myths are in real life.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Trespassing is 'pulling a weapon on you'? You might want to actually have a conversation with a lawyer, before you act on these fantasies.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, I dont care if you agree or not, but if some idiot pulls a weapon on me, he is going to be facing a 1911 loaded with hydroshocks. If he decides to press the attack, he is going to get a whole big enough for a dump truck to drive through appear in his chest.

If he appears to be younger than 16, I will ask him just how stupid he wants to be, after that if he presses the issue, see above.




If a property is posted, as mine is, and a person crosses onto your property at any point other than a valid entry point, then said individual is acting in an illegal manner. He will find himself detained if he is unarmed, if he is armed, then he will find himself with an extra hole in his anatomy.

I am quite well versed in trespassing law in the state of Texas.




Read my statement again.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/28/2013 10:25:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

So in your first example, would you suggest that people should be legally required to turn their back and run, or try to retreat while backpedalling 'if possible', before they are allowed to apply any sort of defensive force against the person with the knife?


If the only choice I had was kill the boy or give him my wallet I would, and you should, give the wallet...It is not worth a life nor is that situation justification for deadly force. Now if you give him the wallet and he then tries to stab you anyway then yes you would be justified...But killing for THINGS should never be the first choice.

Butch

How moral is this.
!4 year old pulls a knife on you and you explain to him that while what he is doing isn't real nice anyone trying to stop him is doing something far worse.
His right to rob and terrorize people far outweighs any right they have to defend themselves.
You have taught him that what ever he does is ok and anyone who fights back is wrong.
He pulls a knife on me and finds himself either staring down the muzzle of a .45 or with my sword can at his throat even if he manages to run away (I wouldn't shoot him in the back) he will never wear those underwear again and might well reform.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 1:00:56 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		That was , of course , sword cane, not sword can.
Wish I could type.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 7:51:45 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Ever been cut


More times than you I would bet...lol

I've never know a crook to start waving a knife a block away so I can decide how close they will get...so giving up the wallet is no more dangerous than trying to pull a gun when he has the drop on you. If he continues the attack then you have no choice.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/29/2013 7:54:54 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 7:59:26 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No what it does is teach him to shoot or stab first so next time someone can't draw down on him...if he survived the first encounter...or you did. Would it not be best where all survive and at least have a second chance at life?


If you think your gun will change his thinking you are not as smart as I thought you were. Can't you see you have the same attitude he does....Killing weapons to get your way... fear controls your life as well as his.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/29/2013 8:02:05 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 8:10:37 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ed in my first post first line I asked about what kind of self-defense... I separated out the use of deadly force not specifying a weapon. Then because the OP has over many threads talked of his belief in the use of guns for self-defense I used them as examples. They certainly are not the only weapon of deadly force.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 1:11:50 PM   
DsBound


Posts: 268
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No what it does is teach him to shoot or stab first so next time someone can't draw down on him...if he survived the first encounter...or you did. Would it not be best where all survive and at least have a second chance at life?


If you think your gun will change his thinking you are not as smart as I thought you were. Can't you see you have the same attitude he does....Killing weapons to get your way... fear controls your life as well as his.

Butch


Hopefully, there would be no next time.

Theres a difference between self defense and deadly force. And in our day of being politically correct and public relations, we're taught that its not the intent of the offender but rather, how the "victim" feels about what's happening or being said. You can't have it both ways.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 2:58:59 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No what it does is teach him to shoot or stab first so next time someone can't draw down on him...if he survived the first encounter...or you did. Would it not be best where all survive and at least have a second chance at life?


If you think your gun will change his thinking you are not as smart as I thought you were. Can't you see you have the same attitude he does....Killing weapons to get your way... fear controls your life as well as his.

Butch

I see that you think his rights are more important than mine.
I also see that you will cling to any excuse that lets you not fight back and put those who will in a bad light.
I also note that you have bent over backwards to ignore that I carry a sword cane as that would get in the way of pretending I was a "gun asshole".
You also failed to address the fact that your fear of defending yourself teaches him he is cool and can get away with anything he wants to do.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/29/2013 3:00:18 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 3:05:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Ever been cut


More times than you I would bet...lol

I've never know a crook to start waving a knife a block away so I can decide how close they will get...so giving up the wallet is no more dangerous than trying to pull a gun when he has the drop on you. If he continues the attack then you have no choice.

Butch

And yet in another thread you gave an example were three thugs did just that true one had a gun.
You insisted that the victim should have let them close with him and surround him before considering resistance.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 3:15:11 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I see that you think his rights are more important than mine.


Yes his right to life is more important than your right to keep your wallet.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 3:18:17 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If you were to read the article in the Post there was no attempt to surround him and he shot two that were running away with their backs turned. Brave man...with a gun anyway. But they did get what they deserved... they were just lucky he was a piss poor shot.

I would say the shooting of the guy with the gun was ill advised but understandable but shooting the kids running away was being a gun happy asshole.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/29/2013 3:31:10 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 3:49:06 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Ever been cut


More times than you I would bet...lol

I've never know a crook to start waving a knife a block away so I can decide how close they will get...so giving up the wallet is no more dangerous than trying to pull a gun when he has the drop on you. If he continues the attack then you have no choice.

Butch

Let's just say one reason I've only been cut once is the extreme regret the first person felt immediately thereafter followed by a long recovery period.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 4:24:19 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

One mark of a man is what he says when he doesn't know you can hear him.

Well said, Hill!

My variation on that is observing how someone treats those who are not in a position to fight back.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 4:28:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you were to read the article in the Post there was no attempt to surround him and he shot two that were running away with their backs turned. Brave man...with a gun anyway. But they did get what they deserved... they were just lucky he was a piss poor shot.

I would say the shooting of the guy with the gun was ill advised but understandable but shooting the kids running away was being a gun happy asshole.

Butch

Right, before you said he should have given them his wallet and then if necessary shoot them later.
So your advised action was to wait till they had his wallet saw that he was a cop(his badge would have been at the front of his wallet) and decide , now that they had an overwhelming tactical advantage, if they wanted to take out the cop or just humiliate him by making him watch them rape his girlfriend. And by waiting as you advise he would make sure that the gf was in the line of fire.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 4:34:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

I see that you think his rights are more important than mine.


Yes his right to life is more important than your right to keep your wallet.

Butch

When he pulls a weapon on me that says that my wallet is more important than my life.
This is my reason for dealing with him harshly.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 4:35:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

One mark of a man is what he says when he doesn't know you can hear him.

Well said, Hill!

My variation on that is observing how someone treats those who are not in a position to fight back.

And they are always offended when they pick wrong.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: What are the limits to self defense. - 9/29/2013 4:54:09 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


I see that you think his rights are more important than mine.
I also see that you will cling to any excuse that lets you not fight back and put those who will in a bad light.
I also note that you have bent over backwards to ignore that I carry a sword cane as that would get in the way of pretending I was a "gun asshole".
You also failed to address the fact that your fear of defending yourself teaches him he is cool and can get away with anything he wants to do.



I seem to recall you said you always carry a gun because your boss told you too ?


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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