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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 11:15:35 AM

crazyml

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You're right of course. I should have clocked it way sooner.

<shudders>

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 11:36:25 AM

Blonderfluff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

You're right of course. I should have clocked it way sooner.

<shudders>

SHHHH

I think he finally went away. <tugging down on my skirt, and looking around >

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 12:14:54 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I suggest getting to a counselor so he can get laid.

Unfortunately, based on what he's written so far, I am beginning to doubt that he has the "swag" or social skills needed to get laid.

Which is why I suggested therapy. To discover why he has not learned social skills previously, treat the problem, and then learn those skills.

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (diff... - 10/28/2013 12:33:51 PM

TigressLily

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OP, do you see why this comes across as being so creepy instead of the normal (not-as-creepy) reactions of a highly-sexed male who isn't as mentally sexually predatory? You posit your question to hear what a woman's take is, are we as visually stimulated by men. The answer is yes and no, as I indicated earlier. Women operate more under special circumstances. Take a shirtless young (but not too young, in my case) guy with nice abs, for example. Seeing him might trigger a response, but not the kind of urges you have to dive right into oral or sexual servicing. We usually aren't as promiscuous and/or indiscriminate about who we'd like to have sex with. If you honored yourself or had a modicum of self-respect, you wouldn't either. Let me add that if I detect the slightest hint of narcissism, I get turned off before I ever get to being turned on by a guy. Male peacocking doesn't do it for me; it doesn't mean didley-squat to me how fine a specimen of manhood he is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ilyrium

... I can't keep my eyes off her thighs just in the hopes of catching a glimpse of her crotch and wondering what it would taste like.

The problem extends to people I don't even know.
<snip>
... but the question I have is whether others have these same thoughts all day, every day, when someone wears those short skirts and low-slung blouses (or whatever women find sensually attractive in men)?

.... I don't even know the name of 99% of the women I see in my daily life who provoke this response. [bolding mine]

You may have meant "invoke" or "evoke," but you used the word "provoke"--again, this is a disturbing insight into your mind. You feel your inappropriate response to erotic stimuli is provoking you to respond this way. In other words, you feel you are being provoked by all these random strange women. This is the same mentality that pedophiles and other sex offenders have.

And yes, if it makes you feel any better, there are many male subs who contact me with this same kind of approach and with your shared mentality. Other than telling them I'm not interested, I don't give them the time of day. Why would I want a sub who doesn't care where he puts his mouth, or his dick either for that matter?

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 12:48:30 PM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I guarantee you that 99% of all women like getting appreciative looks

I guess I must be the 1% then; I hate that second look that guys give when you've pinged their lady rader. When I'm out and about in public life, I'm just a person going about my day, I don't need to want to know that you saw me and thought of your cock, and any action or behaviour towards that impulse will ick me.

Now, when I'm in a killer dress at a club - then sure, it's nice to feel the heads turn because I'm in sex mode, and I want the recognition.

But if I never get noticed in public for the rest of my life, if will be too soon.

I actually think this belief that women wanted to be appreciated for their appearance by random people in public contributes to the OP's attitude - he thinks of them as things to be looked at first, as people second.

There is a HUGE difference between an appreciative look and someone leering or staring.

Leering at a girl is positively creepy and usually unwanted.

Thanks, that is what I meant to say.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

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Post #: 45

RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 9:10:56 PM

Ilyrium

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Joined: 10/2/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
on another thread you mentioned the length of the period of time that you haven't been engaging in sex (and have not engaged in kink) and it was rather extensive.

This is true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If I don't really care about him on some level, I'm not going to fantasize sexually about him. If I do end up liking him a lot and we hit it off romantically, THEN I may fantasize about doing unspeakably naughty things to him.

That seems to sum most of the replies up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
How is it working for you? Are allow the thoughts and desires to control your actions? Or are you controlling your actions despite the thoughts?

I'm wholly in control of my actions. Not so much my thoughts. They're spontaneous. Mostly based on visuals. Enticing visuals though. Short skirt. Low blouse. High heels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tallandsweet16
you know what turns you on, it might be a bit intense, but so long as you're not running around making women feel uncomfortable or stalking them, rock on with your dirty little thoughts.

Thanks for the kind words of support. Sometimes it might be nice to have a bit less testosterone driving my thoughts. (For example, does every guy wake up with a hard on every single morning?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
the issue is impulse control.

My impulse is to hold breasts that interest me and to suckle on them, but, I certainly control that impulse. I also don't follow anyone around (like the guys do in the sex clubs in San Francisco, yuck). I look, and sometimes I look more than I should, but, in the rare cases that I've noticed that they've noticed, surprisingly, in some cases, more skin was forthcoming. So, I "think" I control the creepiness factor. (I hope.)

The one thing that controls me are my thoughts. Incessant. Constant. And always, almost all the time, about sex (kinky stuff).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nakhla
I've never met a woman with this particular issue, so in short: yeah, it's a guy thing.

That's why I had asked. I didn't think women go around salivating over men's crotches, but, some men (me!) take EVERY chance we can get to see up her short skirt if she's showing on purpose. What I mean by that is I don't have a shoe cam and I don't hide in the ladie's changing room, etc. (now THAT is creepy!).

You never hear of women getting caught, for example, falling through the ventilation system of the men's bathrooms, whereas you hear it about men, from time to time. I remember once, in college, the security guys were rifling the women's underwear during spring break. I'd never do anything like that, ever.

But I'd think much worse, in my mind, especially with a woman showing nipples and panty-less crotch, for example. Or very tight clothes. Or any other all-too-obvious visual that you see every day from women, and almost never (if ever) from men.

SO, I guess it's the same old answer in some ways. We're nothing alike.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePrincessKali
I think most men have thoughts like that when they see an attractive woman.

That's what I would have thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePrincessKali
like you may have been jacking off while writing the OP. So no, I don't think you're weird you just might want to keep those thoughts to yourself.

Except here, I keep those thoughts wholly to myself! My eyes may tell a story, but not my words. And, well, um, jacking off to text? Never did that. Nothing in it for me. No matter what the text says. I need a visual.

(in reply to LadyPact)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 9:26:52 PM

KnightofMists

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Seems to me the only issue you have is getting some! I have a lot of intimate fantasies. I do wake up with hard on 99 % percent of the time. But... I have the good life to enjoy the pleasures of three women.

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 9:29:08 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
No I never have these thoughts. I might see a guy who is hot and I will say he's hot but after that I just keep on walking without another thought in my head. ... I think it's a guy thing really.

It seems that's mostly the case, from the women's perspective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
he tries to validate his strong feelings of wanting to reach out and touch strangers by saying he wants to please them.

Good point. I hadn't realized, and I don't know exactly, but, perhaps I MIXED two different "processes" into this one question.

One is the vanilla fact that I will look if someone wants me to look or gives me the chance (which I can't tell easily the difference in most cases with strangers who are provocatively dressed or dancing those lovely gyrations reminiscent of sex acts).

The other is the kink, which may be wholly unrelated, as you noted, and perhaps it was folly for me to mix the two in the same question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
99% of all women like getting appreciative looks, but would not be pleased at all by your intensive focus on just their looks/attire.

This IS a dilemma. At work, for example, is this Indonesian gal, of about 25, very cute, but she had a huge boob job and she wears the most inappropriate clothing and her skirts are so short they're scandalous and yet - she is the NICEST person you would ever meet. She's so sweet, I feel guilty just trying to catch a glimpse of nipple (not that it would be all that hard to do). What I really can't UNDERSTAND is WHY someone, who is so very sweet and actually very very very nice, needs to wear clothing that is so inappropriate in a business setting as to be water cooler conversation EVERY day (as in "did you see what Vina is wearing today?).

What I don't get is WHY she does that. Clearly she wants the attention. One time I remarked to my boss that her skirt was so short everyone sat in the lunch room across from her and she noticed and hiked the skirt down repeatedly (unsuccessfully, as it was so short it couldn't really be pulled down) and my boss just casually remarked "She knew what she was wearing in the morning when she put it on so don't feel sorry for her".

In her case, since I knew her well, and liked her, I felt GUILTY sneaking a peak when I stood over her, for example, to work on a spreadsheet (she was one of our floating admins).

The part that confused me is that clearly she had no need for all that - yet - she just as clearly did it. WHY? For the attention? Who needs that much attention?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Most of us only care for that obsessive attention from a man we are involved with, not a stranger in a bookstore.

I should mention again that I try very hard NOT to be noticed, and, while I'm telling you what I am thinking at the time, these women would be hard pressed to even notice me and certainly they'd have no idea what I am thinking. You know - because I told you. But, it's not like I do anything more than look and I don't even get up (but I may rearrange myself for a better view).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I ...doubt that he has the "swag" or social skills needed to get laid.

This may very well be all too true! :)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 9:48:39 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
There is a HUGE difference between an appreciative look and someone leering or staring.
Leering at a girl is positively creepy and usually unwanted.

Again, the dilemma is in the details.

What if the woman, as MANY do, wasn't wearing any panties (trust me, most of us can tell - and - certainly some of us discuss who isn't wearing panties that day at the water cooler). Now, I don't know WHY anyone would wear a very short skirt and no panties, but, I do know that I'm going to LOOK if and when I get the chance. I might not crawl under the cubicles to get an upshot, but, I certainly will look up if she sits across from me in a meeting, or if she bends over so that I can almost see everything there is to see.

My confusion lies in your response, coupled with my observation.

I have to wonder ... WHAT DOES that woman actually want? Does she really expect to be NOT exposing her crotch to anyone who maneuvers their eyes at an acute angle to her legs? If she did, why does she wear such a short skirt sans panties at work? Makes no sense (to me). Likewise, at a dance club, I can see women on the stages scattered about, dancing in skirts that show EVERYTHING. Can they reasonably expect us NOT to look?

I guess, the trick to master, is to look if she wants it, but not to look if she doesn't. But how can you tell?

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 9:57:40 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype
One look, a double look, or a short stare is enough to feed my ego.
But a long stare turns a compliment into something creepy

This is very interesting. It's hard, for me, to tell WHAT a woman wants, based on the very confusing signals. For example, take my friendly admin, Vina. There is absolutely no way I'm not going to sneak a peak down her blouse, and I probably have seen her nipples at work fifty to a hundred times, but, I always quickly look away if she turns toward me, and, certainly she has never mentioned that I make her feel uncomfortable.

I feel GUILTY looking down her blouse for more than a split second, and then, if I look AWAY too soon, I feel like I missed a golden opportunity.
And, my boss' words of "she knew what she was wearing" keep going through my mind.
BTW, she's married - so - romantic involvement isn't part of the equation. It's all visual.

I must admit that most of you already ascertained that I perhaps have trouble with subtle social cues. To me black is black and white is white. And, there are only about 20 shades of gray. So, may I ask what clues I'm supposed to look for that tell me that a highly provocatively dressed woman only wants me to sneak a peak for a short stare, or a double-look turnaround, but, nothing more than, oh, say, 1 second or 2 seconds?

What signal does she give that says "only look once"?

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 10:04:52 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
The fact that he is sitting there across from some woman up skirting her or staring at her chest in the hopes of seeing her breasts is bad enough.

I must say that if there's nothing to see, I wouldn't even notice her.
For example, say she's wearing business pants. There is absolutely nothing in it for me. Nothing. She wouldn't notice me any more than I wouldn't notice her.
Say she's wearing a knee-high skirt and a loose blouse. Probably (depending on whether the blouse was see through or not), I wouldn't even notice her at all.
There would be ZERO sexual thoughts. None. Wouldn't even occur to me to think of her in any sexual manner.

But, what if, she's wearing a too-short skirt with a too-low blouse? (To change the tables.).
THAT's when I look (and think those dirty thoughts!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
OP, I can only hope that your impulse control is very strong.

I must repeat, I highly doubt a single woman has ever ascertained what dirty thoughts are in my mind when I look at her when she's dressed as I keep explaining. I certainly THINK all sorts of kinky things! I admit that. But, if I catch her catching me looking, I would more often than not get up in embarrassment and leave the building (or whatever), as I try to look without getting caught.

However, what confuses me to no end is knowing WHEN she wants to be looked at, and knowing when she doesn't when she is showing everything to anyone who cares to hang around to give her the attention?

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 10:30:36 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
It's like he can't separate himself from the object of his lust by remembering that these random women are entirely different human beings, and they may not want his attention or even like the things he wishes to do to "please" them.

I thank you for pointing that out, as, I must agree with you that the two desires are most likely entirely separate, which is a realization I only belatedly came to, after it was pointed out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
or would even find him desirable as a partner. He somehow skips over all of that.

That is an interesting point. Funny. But, I have no intention of being partners with the people I fantasize about. I don't even KNOW who they are. All I know is that they, for example, bend over in front of me at Starbucks (or wherever) and I can see their bra and nipples. Or, take an actual example that happened last week. I was in the grocery store ... one of those little ones that are in the big apartment complexes. I was thirsty after a 12 mile hike in the mountains, so, for my hike back, I stopped off at the store to buy a cold drink. A resident was there, buying coffee beans, and grinding it, and, I kid you not, she had just a t-shirt with the sleeves ripped off so that I could see 90% of her boobs from a side view as she ground the coffee beans.

You know what I did?

I shouldn't tell you probably. But, I grabbed a similar bag of coffee beans, and I got right behind her (but slightly off to the side, for obvious reasons). She made no attempt to cover herself, and I struck up a conversation regarding how I loved those beans better than the others (all of it bullshit by the way), and she smiled and we spoke until it was my turn. I tried as hard as I could to grind 'em up and get in the line behind her, but, by the time I got to the checkout, she was gone.

The whole time I was fantasizing of holding those luscious orbs of delicate pleasure in my hands. I could SEE the roundness, the fullness, it was as if they were filled to the brim with the cream for my coffee (which, by the way, I threw in the trash outside as I didn't want to carry it for 12 miles as a reminder of this absolute waste of time that I just did for 5 minutes or so giving this woman whom I'd never see again in my life my undivided attention and attempt at small talk).

In fact, the whole way home, I was walking thinking about how I wasted my time just giving her the attention that I did.
Even so, I still couldn't understand why anyone would go out to a store dressed in a loose top with huge sleeve holes, but, the only thing that made sense is that she either didn't know what she was wearing or that she just grabbed the first thing in the closet for a quick run of coffee.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lizihe's objectifying these women to the point where he seriously doesn't seem to get

I get where you're coming from, and, I admit, I'm objectifying women. But, I mustn't have mentioned that the object (i.e., T&A) is always clearly in plain view in that, as in the case above, the thoughts race the moment I actually see a full breast or a nipple or a crotch without panties, etc. (seeing panties no longer really thrill me all that much - but at times, my mind still gets away from me for just panties).

quote:

there is a significant portion of the female race that doesn't want, or like, to receive oral sex.

????????????
This I am unaware of!
I've never met a woman who did not enjoy a good half hour to an hour and a half of oral sex!
In fact, I have this technique, where I spell the Gettysburg Address, over and over and over again (yes, I memorized it in high school for a play), with my tongue. It may be off topic, but, it would indeed be a shock to me that any woman wouldn't want oral sex. I've certainly never met one, but, I must say, I've only had a dozen girlfriends in my life, but, certainly that entire dozen found oral sex to be highly stimulating! (As did I.)

(in reply to lizi)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 10:52:29 PM

Ilyrium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blonderfluff
I was pretty creeped out [by] the fact that he is getting off on these long , detailed descriptions....just....eww

This is the only post that hurt my feelings. To think that I asked the question to get off, and not to understand the answer, is, well, it's creepy in and of itself. In a million years, I wouldn't think myself possible of getting off on reading text. Sure, I'd "read" a playboy when I was a kid, but, I was looking at the pictures more so than actually reading the text. I'm actually hurt, offended, and sorry that you think that - because - to get "off" on a serious and heartfelt discussion - is - well - it's just creepy. Your thought process scares me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blonderfluff
I think he finally went away. <tugging down on my skirt, and looking around >

I was out camping all weekend, with my church group. We went to Manresa, and had a blast on the beach. With my good friends, these dirty thoughts don't occur. And, they wouldn't occur with you, for sure, with your attitude, but, if I didn't know you (hence I wouldn't know your attitude), if your skirt was so short as to require tugging, I'd probably sneak a peek - but if I noticed you looking toward me, I'd look away probably far sooner than would be necessary than a moment too late. But, if you weren't wearing a short skirt or see-through top, I probably would never even notice you - so - you'd be quite safe with me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
OP, do you see why this comes across as being so creepy instead of the normal (not-as-creepy) reactions of a highly-sexed male who isn't as mentally sexually predatory?

I certainly see the overwhelming responses which clearly state that it's creepy to the nth degree. In the case of the person just before you, I think she's way over the top as, from her conversation, I could tell she holds zero allure for me. So, in fact, had I made that determination, she could be as naked as Lady Godiva and I wouldn't put down my ham sandwich to give her a second's notice.

Given that this is not about people I know, but it's about people I don't know who dress in a way to make looking worthwhile (i.e., the chance of seeing a nipple or a hairless crotch is nearly 100% were I to catch it at the right moment), I will have to think long and hard how it looks to THEM (since I was originally of the mindset that they can't possibly know what I'm thinking). For example, I've NEVER been slapped (although I have been chastised for being an "octopus" when necking a bit too feverishly - which always confused me - as I never understood the "no" "don't" "stop" signals of women.

Perhaps, in the end, I am just horribly socially inept, as so many have promulgated.

Women, to me, are confusing. I admit. Not any of the women I know, but, women I don't know, who also dress in a way that makes seeing their nipples and crotch a shoe-in at the horse races, who apparently, based on what I'm inferring from what all of you are intimating, don't want me to look except, as some have proposed, when they want me to look (which, for some like our friend above, would clearly be never).

EDIT: Genericized response by removing attribution.

< Message edited by Ilyrium -- 10/28/2013 11:04:47 PM >

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/28/2013 11:54:43 PM

sexyred1

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I have to say I give you credit for replying to everyone.

About your married female co-worker....your boss is correct. Some women seek attention and choose inappropriate venues like work.

They say that some women dress for other women, some dress for men and some dress for themselves.

You ask how your co worker can be sweet and dress sexy. Why not? Sweet and sexy are not mutually exclusive.

I know a really primly dressed woman whom no one suspects is a total slut, picking guys up all the time.

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 12:38:24 AM

AthenaSurrenders

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FR

Nice to meet you OP, I'm one of those many sexually fulfilled women who happens to not like oral sex. The thought of someone being down there for over an hour spelling out a memorized speech is even more horrifying.

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 2:45:14 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
There is a HUGE difference between an appreciative look and someone leering or staring.

Leering at a girl is positively creepy and usually unwanted.

Perhaps for you, but for me they are both unwanted, which is the point I was making.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 2:47:46 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

quote:

There is a HUGE difference between an appreciative look and someone leering or staring.

Leering at a girl is positively creepy and usually unwanted.

Agreed. One look, a double look, or a short stare is enough to feed my ego.

For me, the look or double look is just as bad as a longer look - they're both labelling and acknowledging me by my sex, rather than simply as a person, and that's what is creepy about it.

(in reply to theshytype)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 2:52:31 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
As a woman, there is a night and day difference between an appreciative glance from a man and this obsessive leering that the OP admits to doing.

That might be your opinion but, as a woman, I have to be clear - you don't speak for all women. Some women find an 'appreciative glance' to be offputting and unwanted. And I honestly believe it's this culture of 'women like being noticed for their looks' that leads into the situation the OP is describing. In fact, many times I have seen discussions of this sort turn really ugly when the women responding say they don't like any kind of 'appreciative look' - including calling them unfeminine, saying it's the natural order of things, asking would they rather be spit on instead, saying there's nothing women can do to stop it, etc etc - it revealed an incredibly misogynistic attitude behind the 'common wisdom' that there's nothing wrong with giving a woman an appreciative look.

So once again, on behalf of me - as a woman - no, we don't all think that appreciative look is okay. You might do, and that's your perogative, but you can't possibly claim to speak on behalf of all women as to what kind of behaviour or treatment they think is okay.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

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RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 2:53:37 AM

orgasmdenial12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2
I'm in the 1% right there with you. If I never get noticed in public for the rest of my life by random men, I would be overjoyed. All I have ever wanted was to be noticed by the one I want to notice me, and blissfully invisible to all the rest.

Hear hear! Why would we want any sort of attention from men we're not interested in, it's just weird!

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)

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Post #: 59

RE: How do men and women treat the same situation (dife... - 10/29/2013 3:00:47 AM

orgasmdenial12

Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
I guarantee you that 99% of all women like getting appreciative looks

I guess I must be the 1% then; I hate that second look that guys give when you've pinged their lady rader. When I'm out and about in public life, I'm just a person going about my day, I don't need to want to know that you saw me and thought of your cock, and any action or behaviour towards that impulse will ick me.

Now, when I'm in a killer dress at a club - then sure, it's nice to feel the heads turn because I'm in sex mode, and I want the recognition.

But if I never get noticed in public for the rest of my life, if will be too soon.

I actually think this belief that women wanted to be appreciated for their appearance by random people in public contributes to the OP's attitude - he thinks of them as things to be looked at first, as people second.

There is a HUGE difference between an appreciative look and someone leering or staring.

Leering at a girl is positively creepy and usually unwanted.

Thanks, that is what I meant to say.

I understood what you meant to say, and I'm explaining that I disagree with it. I don't give 'appreciative looks' to grannies, or children, or random men in shops - why on earth would I want someone to give 'appreciative looks' to me? And in fact, it's not an 'appreciative look' - he's not appreciating that I'm a good person or a hard worker or a great friend - he's noticing that I have tits and ass - that's not appreciative, that's objectifying.

Obviously, you're entitled to your own preferences on the subject, but you can't possibly claim to speak for 99% of all women. If you like being noticed as a sex object by random men on the street, good for you - but as a woman, I'm hoping you'll hear and understand that some of us don't - at all. We don't make a distinction, we just don't like it. Those 'appreciative looks' are just as creepy and unwanted as a leer, for some of us.

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Post #: 60