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RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 1:56:39 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In the real world the President can certainly order a fix to a regulation issued by the executive branch. However it won't change a thing. The insurance companies are not going to re-issue those canceled policies.


So Obama is telling more lies on top of his lies.

No. He is just making a very good point. It is the insurance companies that refused to bring policies into compliance with the law or made changes outside the grandfathering provisions. The government did not.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 1:57:33 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Then he should jail the insurance companies lock stock and barrel for treason.  Looks like it may be in their best interests to cooperate somewhat, or it looks like some shit is gonna be legislated.




Treason? Why do you spew such bollocks?


For opposite reasons that the nutsackers spew theirs.  But its legal definition is appropriate:

The betrayal of one's own country by waging war against it or by consciously or purposely acting to aid its enemies.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 1:59:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
And why again did the Democrats allow the shut down of the Federal Government when all they had to do to keep it open was to delay the individual mandate for a year (like was done for corporations) which is pretty much what will happen now when insurance companies don't "uncancel"????

Never happened. No CR with only that provision ever passed the House


True, but the House did pass a CR with only two changes. One was delaying the mandate for a year. The other was removing employer subsidies for for Congress, it's staff and appointees.

True that no CR was passed that only delayed the individual mandate for a year, but that one was damn close, and it was passed 228-201 on September 30th.


That CR would have cost the government hundreds of good junior staffers who get paid next to nothing. They would not have been eligible for the exchange subsidies so they would have been completely out of pocket for their coverage and would not have even have had the option to pay the fine instead. The provision was incredibly short sighted.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:00:00 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Yeah, shit needs to be legislated but it hasn't stopped Obama in the past.


Don't see that it does as of this point.  It looks as though it is inside policy to do in implementation rules.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:06:47 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In the real world the President can certainly order a fix to a regulation issued by the executive branch. However it won't change a thing. The insurance companies are not going to re-issue those canceled policies.


So Obama is telling more lies on top of his lies.

no, he's not lying.. you know whats going on here now.. he's passing the buck & potential blame onto the insurance corps.. now its their decision to keep the old plans or not.. now he has actually kept his promise (well.. for now).. but I agree with DomKen- those insurance corps aren't likely to change back again now.. so its too little too late, imo..

"announced changes under his health care law to give insurance companies the option to keep offering consumers plans that would otherwise be canceled."

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:09:57 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
He is just making a very good point. It is the insurance companies that refused to bring policies into compliance with the law or made changes outside the grandfathering provisions. The government did not.

how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:11:44 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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I would have liked to see Obama saying something like this to the insurance companies, immediately:

Simultaneous and identical actions of United States Steel and other leading steal corporations increasing steel prices by some $6 a ton constitute a wholly unjustifiable and irresponsible defiance of the public interest. In this serious hour in our Nation's history when we are confronted with grave crises in Berlin and Southeast Asia, when we are devoting our energies to economic recovery and stability, when we are asking reservists to leave their homes and their families for months on end and servicemen to risk their lives--and four were killed in the last two days in Viet Nam and asking union members to hold down their wage requests at a time when restraint and sacrifice are being asked of every citizen, the American people will find it hard, as I do, to accept a situation in which a tiny handful of steel executives whose pursuit of private power and profit exceeds their sense of public responsibility can show such utter contempt for the interests of 185 million Americans.
If this rise in the cost of steel is imitated by the rest of the industry, instead of rescinded, it would increase the cost of homes, autos, appliances, and most other items for every American family. It would increase the cost of machinery and tools to every American businessman and farmer. It would seriously handicap our efforts to prevent an inflationary spiral from eating up the pensions of our older citizens, and our new gains in purchasing power.
It would add, Secretary McNamara informed me this morning, an estimated $1 billion to the cost of our defences, at a time when every dollar is needed for national security and other purposes. It would make it more difficult for American goods to compete in foreign markets, more difficult to withstand competition from foreign imports, and thus more difficult to improve our balance of payments position, and stem the flow of gold. And it is necessary to stem it for our national security, if we're going to pay for our security committments abroad. And it would surely handicap our efforts to induce other industries and unions to adopt reasonable price and wage policies.
The facts of the matter are that there is no justification for an increase in steel prices. The recent settlement between the industry and the union, which doesn not even take place until July 1st, was widely acknowledged to be noninflationary, and the whole purpose and effect of this Administration's role, which both parties understood, was to achieve an agreement which would make unnecessary any increase in prices. Steel output per man is rising so fast that labor costs per ton of steel can actually be expected to decline in the next 12 months. And in fact, the acting Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics informed me this morning that, and I quote, "employment costs per unit of steel output in 1961 were essentially the same as they were in 1958."
The cost of the major raw materials, steel scrap and coal, has also been declining, and for an industry which has generally been operating at less than two-thirds of capacity, its profit rate has been normal and can be expected to rise sharply this year in view of the reduction in idle capacity. Their lot has been easier than that of one hundred thousand steel workers thrown out of work in the last 3 years. The industry's cash dividends have exceeded $600 million in each of the last 5 years, and earnings in the first quarter of this year were estimated in the February 28th Wall Street Journal to be among the highest in history.
In short, at a time when they could be exploring how more efficiency and better prices could be obtained, reducing prices in this industry in recognition of lower costs, their unusually good labor contract, their foreign competition and their increase in production and profits which are coming this year, a few gigantic corporations have decided to increase prices in ruthless disregard of their public responsibilities.
The Steelworkers Union can be proud that it abided by its responsibilities in this agreement, and this Government also has responsibilities which we intend to meet. The Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission are examining the significance of this action in a free, competetive economy. The Department of Defence and other agencies are reviewing its impact on their policies of procurement. And I am informed that steps are under way by those members of the Congress who plan appropriate inquiries into how these price decisions are so quickly made and reached and what legislative safeguards may be needed to protect the public interest.
Price and wage decisions in this country, except for a very limited restriction in the case of monopolies and national emergency strikes, are and ought to be freely and privately made. But the American people have a right to expect, in return for that freedom, a higher sense of business responsibility for the welfare of their country than has been shown in the last 2 days.
Some time ago I asked each American to consider what he would do for his country and I asked the steel companies. In the last 24 hours we had their answer.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:14:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..


But if they did the ACA minimums, and raised the rates, still grandfathered, thats the point and always was, it is in the law.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:17:45 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I would have liked to see Obama saying something like this to the insurance companies, immediately:

Simultaneous and identical actions of United States Steel and other leading steal corporations increasing steel prices by some $6 a ton constitute a wholly unjustifiable and irresponsible defiance of the public interest. In this serious hour in our Nation's history when we are confronted with grave crises in Berlin and Southeast Asia, when we are devoting our energies to economic recovery and stability, when we are asking reservists to leave their homes and their families for months on end and servicemen to risk their lives--and four were killed in the last two days in Viet Nam and asking union members to hold down their wage requests at a time when restraint and sacrifice are being asked of every citizen, the American people will find it hard, as I do, to accept a situation in which a tiny handful of steel executives whose pursuit of private power and profit exceeds their sense of public responsibility can show such utter contempt for the interests of 185 million Americans.
If this rise in the cost of steel is imitated by the rest of the industry, instead of rescinded, it would increase the cost of homes, autos, appliances, and most other items for every American family. It would increase the cost of machinery and tools to every American businessman and farmer. It would seriously handicap our efforts to prevent an inflationary spiral from eating up the pensions of our older citizens, and our new gains in purchasing power.
It would add, Secretary McNamara informed me this morning, an estimated $1 billion to the cost of our defences, at a time when every dollar is needed for national security and other purposes. It would make it more difficult for American goods to compete in foreign markets, more difficult to withstand competition from foreign imports, and thus more difficult to improve our balance of payments position, and stem the flow of gold. And it is necessary to stem it for our national security, if we're going to pay for our security committments abroad. And it would surely handicap our efforts to induce other industries and unions to adopt reasonable price and wage policies.
The facts of the matter are that there is no justification for an increase in steel prices. The recent settlement between the industry and the union, which doesn not even take place until July 1st, was widely acknowledged to be noninflationary, and the whole purpose and effect of this Administration's role, which both parties understood, was to achieve an agreement which would make unnecessary any increase in prices. Steel output per man is rising so fast that labor costs per ton of steel can actually be expected to decline in the next 12 months. And in fact, the acting Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics informed me this morning that, and I quote, "employment costs per unit of steel output in 1961 were essentially the same as they were in 1958."
The cost of the major raw materials, steel scrap and coal, has also been declining, and for an industry which has generally been operating at less than two-thirds of capacity, its profit rate has been normal and can be expected to rise sharply this year in view of the reduction in idle capacity. Their lot has been easier than that of one hundred thousand steel workers thrown out of work in the last 3 years. The industry's cash dividends have exceeded $600 million in each of the last 5 years, and earnings in the first quarter of this year were estimated in the February 28th Wall Street Journal to be among the highest in history.
In short, at a time when they could be exploring how more efficiency and better prices could be obtained, reducing prices in this industry in recognition of lower costs, their unusually good labor contract, their foreign competition and their increase in production and profits which are coming this year, a few gigantic corporations have decided to increase prices in ruthless disregard of their public responsibilities.
The Steelworkers Union can be proud that it abided by its responsibilities in this agreement, and this Government also has responsibilities which we intend to meet. The Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission are examining the significance of this action in a free, competetive economy. The Department of Defence and other agencies are reviewing its impact on their policies of procurement. And I am informed that steps are under way by those members of the Congress who plan appropriate inquiries into how these price decisions are so quickly made and reached and what legislative safeguards may be needed to protect the public interest.
Price and wage decisions in this country, except for a very limited restriction in the case of monopolies and national emergency strikes, are and ought to be freely and privately made. But the American people have a right to expect, in return for that freedom, a higher sense of business responsibility for the welfare of their country than has been shown in the last 2 days.
Some time ago I asked each American to consider what he would do for his country and I asked the steel companies. In the last 24 hours we had their answer.




You wrote that fast

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:19:22 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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No I didn't; JFK did. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:22:17 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No I didn't; JFK did. 


When were you going to let everyone know?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:22:39 PM   
tj444


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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..


But if they did the ACA minimums, and raised the rates, still grandfathered, thats the point and always was, it is in the law.

if it was in the law (are we talking the original law, not the modifications since?) then the ability for insurance corps to cancel in the first place would have been outlawed.. that does not appear to be the case since Obama hasn't told them to get in line, he has allowed them to cancel policies people wanted to keep.. so if it was in the law all along, is he just a wuss?

meh.. govt making everything they touch so complicated is why ya'll keep electing crappy slimey politicians..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:31:57 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No I didn't; JFK did. 


When were you going to let everyone know?


If there is someone on this planet that dont know that or couldnt google it (it was about steel) ...then I guess you better come clean on all the stuff you get off breitbart and other fools constantly.

Anyone who doesn't know instantly, that------- Jesus wept.  Aint from the new york times, or anonymous, had better do some research before they come here and run mouths, OI?  

There are many things not sourced out here, particularly the 'hapless hooverisms' so favoritely sloshed about by the current 'conservatives'.

But they are common enough that everyone should know them for their cretinism.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 2:51:27 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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if it was in the law (are we talking the original law, not the modifications since?) then the ability for insurance corps to cancel in the first place would have been outlawed....

no, it wouldnt have been outlawed.  I posted the rules out here.  not just the link the rules. though that to, from HHS.  cover till 26, no preexisting, a couple other and ok to charge for it.  that was grandfathered.

Here is one:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4580220/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#4580895

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/14/2013 3:00:41 PM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 3:09:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
He is just making a very good point. It is the insurance companies that refused to bring policies into compliance with the law or made changes outside the grandfathering provisions. The government did not.

how could they possibly stay the same? if the requirement for compliance is to expand coverage & include stuff that wasn't previously included, then the cost to policyholders would have to change also.. imo.. (not that I am feeling sympathy for the insurance corps cuz they should have been totally kicked to the curb in the first place, imo)..

There were provisions for grandfathered policies. The insurance companies chose to cancel policies rather than stay within the guidelines.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 3:30:43 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Yeah, shit needs to be legislated but it hasn't stopped Obama in the past.



ACA was legislated, and it didn't stop the wingnuts from extortion. Do it our way or else..... Doesn't matter that the people voted Obama in twice, that the ACA has already become law.

These conversations should have happened 3 years ago and had good serious discussions with problem solving as the goal ---. not at the 11th hour with nothing but threats and grandstanding and total disrespect for the democratic process that brought us to this point.

Republicans need to reclaim their party. There are smart, intelligent wonderful Republicans out there who are afraid of being branded as too liberal or goodness knows what. But the folks they have making all the noise now? Best thing that could happen to the Democrats.



_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 3:46:51 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Then he should jail the insurance companies lock stock and barrel for treason.  Looks like it may be in their best interests to cooperate somewhat, or it looks like some shit is gonna be legislated.





Look how angry you are

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 3:56:08 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

if it was in the law (are we talking the original law, not the modifications since?) then the ability for insurance corps to cancel in the first place would have been outlawed....

no, it wouldnt have been outlawed.  I posted the rules out here.  not just the link the rules. though that to, from HHS.  cover till 26, no preexisting, a couple other and ok to charge for it.  that was grandfathered.

Here is one:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4580220/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#4580895

when it was apparent that the insurance corps could cancel the plans, he should have come clean with the public & tell them the truth and that some policies might be canceled.. instead of repeating a promise that had no certainty.. what is a "promise" that a person knows he cant keep?


_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 4:04:48 PM   
switchdavid69


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There is no way in hell that Obama would 'come clean'. The ends justified the means, even if it meant repeating a lie that most people knew was a lie.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: TICK-TOCK to the AHA as we know it... White House c... - 11/14/2013 4:29:32 PM   
KYsissy


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It is almost as if it was designed so there would be no grandfathered plans. "If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. "

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/30/obamas-pledge-that-no-one-will-take-away-your-health-plan/

There is a note that corrects the figure but it is a miniscule correction.

Policies change every year. To set a three year timeline in something like copays NOT to change, seems as if it was designed to get rid of all current plans.


_____________________________

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Will Rogers, 1897-1935

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Profile   Post #: 40
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