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RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 3:10:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

generally or not, nobody gives a fuck, a badge dont mean shit, generally.  And it is speculation at this point whether he showed it or not, anyone can get a badge.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20badge&sprefix=police+bad%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apolice%20badge

no logic demonstrated to date, fellas.

You do realize that if people followed your standard police detectives would be in a number of shootouts rivaling TV?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 3:29:53 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

This is what you get when you avoid the foolishness of stopping feral youths when the are still committing minor crimes.

Associated Press
SYRACUSE, N.Y. — Knockout-- the game a group of teenagers in Syracuse allegedly played that resulted in the violent, random death of a 51-year-old man-- has been a national phenomenon for at least a decade.

Reports of the game have surfaced in states, such as Massachusetts, New Jersey and Illinois. In Missouri, a special police squad and prosecutor were assigned to battle the problem. The game there has been characterized in news reports as "almost contagious," with endings that mirror the incident in Syracuse on May 23.

That night, a group of teenagers attempting to knock Michael Daniels out with a single punch wound up beating and stomping him to death, according to police. A 15-year-old and a 13-year-old have been arrested and charged with first-degree manslaughter, and Syracuse Police Chief Frank Fowler said more arrests may come.

The 15-year-old will be prosecuted in criminal court. The 13-year-old will be dealt with during closed proceedings in Onondaga County Family Court. The Associated Press is withholding the names of the accused because they are juveniles.

Fowler said his department was currently investigating at least four other instances of people being attacked in a similar manner.

While this appears to be the first "knockout game" killing in Syracuse, other reports of the "knockout game" phenomenon detail much of the same: The perpetrators are usually teens, the attacks are random, and the goal is to knock a victim unconscious with a single punch.

If one player doesn't succeed in knocking out the victim, others join in to finish the job.

An editorial in the St. Louis paper in 2011 likened the game to behavior described in "A Clockwork Orange."

In 1992, police in Cambridge, Mass., said three drunken teenagers decided to play "knockout" and randomly targeted an MIT student, according to news reports. After the student was knocked to the ground, a 16-year-old stabbed the victim to death as he tried to get up.

The defendant in that case, Shon McHugh, was sentenced as a juvenile to 20 years in prison.

In another recent case involving the "knockout game," 20-year-old Elex Murphy was sentenced to 55 years in prison for the killing of a 72-year-old man in St. Louis.

At a May 3 sentencing, Murphy's lawyer asked a judge to consider that the "knockout game" had been played for years by countless teens before the deadly instance involving Murphy's victim, according to an article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Another article from the St. Louis paper noted that at least half a dozen people in the city had been randomly targeted and injured by players of the game. There, the mayor happened upon a victim of the "knockout game" and called for juveniles to be tried as adults. A special police squad was assigned to investigate the crimes and a prosecutor was designated to handle the cases. The St. Louis police chief was quoted calling the crimes a "trend of sub-human behavior."

In Syracuse, Mayor Stephanie Miner echoed the sentiment. At the news conference Thursday, she said recent violence in the city had been generated by a "lack of humanity as we understand it."


Works out real well doesn't it?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 3:38:19 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

generally or not, nobody gives a fuck, a badge dont mean shit, generally.  And it is speculation at this point whether he showed it or not, anyone can get a badge.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20badge&sprefix=police+bad%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apolice%20badge

no logic demonstrated to date, fellas.

How did I know you were going to say that.
There are plenty of costume shops with police "uniforms" and anyone can paint a car.
So go ahead and kill the cop, then claim self defense cause you didn't believe it?
Get real that isn't going to fly.


Wait a minute...was this guy in uniform? Was he driving a police car? No? As far as showing a badge or ID, I have no idea whether he did or not. So why are you bringing up that nonsense? If some guy drives up to me in a family car, gets out all irate, then shoves me, whether he showed a possibly phoney badge or not, chances are that isn't going to sit too well with me. He wasn't trying to detain the kid...he just shoved him. At that point I think the kid had a bit of a right to self defense. However, continuing to pummel the guy when he was down and out went above and beyond self defense. To me, that is where he would, and should, have problems.

When I was in my early teens, I was with my dad when he was making a left hand turn into a parking lot. It was late afternoon, and the sun was glaring off of the tail lights making them difficult to see. The guy behind us nearly ran into us while we were waiting for traffic to clear to make the turn. The guy pulled in behind us, got out of his car all irate, pulled out a badge and flashed it at my dad and started yelling at him, saying he hadn't signaled. My mother asked to take a closer look at the badge. The guy was a fucking meat inspector. Just because somebody flashes a badge doesn't mean they are a cop. Especially if they are all irate and shoving people.

And your parents could have had him arrested for impersonating an officer.
In Yatchie's example they will most likely do the same when they catch him.
In my example no charges were filed.
This three are all one in a million.
So think it is justified to get in a shootout because you thought it was number 1,000,000?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 4:46:07 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

generally or not, nobody gives a fuck, a badge dont mean shit, generally.  And it is speculation at this point whether he showed it or not, anyone can get a badge.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20badge&sprefix=police+bad%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apolice%20badge

no logic demonstrated to date, fellas.

How did I know you were going to say that.
There are plenty of costume shops with police "uniforms" and anyone can paint a car.
So go ahead and kill the cop, then claim self defense cause you didn't believe it?
Get real that isn't going to fly.


Wait a minute...was this guy in uniform? Was he driving a police car? No? As far as showing a badge or ID, I have no idea whether he did or not. So why are you bringing up that nonsense? If some guy drives up to me in a family car, gets out all irate, then shoves me, whether he showed a possibly phoney badge or not, chances are that isn't going to sit too well with me. He wasn't trying to detain the kid...he just shoved him. At that point I think the kid had a bit of a right to self defense. However, continuing to pummel the guy when he was down and out went above and beyond self defense. To me, that is where he would, and should, have problems.

When I was in my early teens, I was with my dad when he was making a left hand turn into a parking lot. It was late afternoon, and the sun was glaring off of the tail lights making them difficult to see. The guy behind us nearly ran into us while we were waiting for traffic to clear to make the turn. The guy pulled in behind us, got out of his car all irate, pulled out a badge and flashed it at my dad and started yelling at him, saying he hadn't signaled. My mother asked to take a closer look at the badge. The guy was a fucking meat inspector. Just because somebody flashes a badge doesn't mean they are a cop. Especially if they are all irate and shoving people.

Come on Igor, you know full well that I am running the previous argument to it's conclusion.
The story stated that he identified himself as an officer.
You should know that showing a badge is part of id-ing when not in uniform.
If you can pretend the badge must be fake why can't you pretend the uniform is?



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:05:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

generally or not, nobody gives a fuck, a badge dont mean shit, generally.  And it is speculation at this point whether he showed it or not, anyone can get a badge.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20badge&sprefix=police+bad%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apolice%20badge

no logic demonstrated to date, fellas.

How did I know you were going to say that.
There are plenty of costume shops with police "uniforms" and anyone can paint a car.
So go ahead and kill the cop, then claim self defense cause you didn't believe it?
Get real that isn't going to fly.


Wait a minute...was this guy in uniform? Was he driving a police car? No? As far as showing a badge or ID, I have no idea whether he did or not. So why are you bringing up that nonsense? If some guy drives up to me in a family car, gets out all irate, then shoves me, whether he showed a possibly phoney badge or not, chances are that isn't going to sit too well with me. He wasn't trying to detain the kid...he just shoved him. At that point I think the kid had a bit of a right to self defense. However, continuing to pummel the guy when he was down and out went above and beyond self defense. To me, that is where he would, and should, have problems.

When I was in my early teens, I was with my dad when he was making a left hand turn into a parking lot. It was late afternoon, and the sun was glaring off of the tail lights making them difficult to see. The guy behind us nearly ran into us while we were waiting for traffic to clear to make the turn. The guy pulled in behind us, got out of his car all irate, pulled out a badge and flashed it at my dad and started yelling at him, saying he hadn't signaled. My mother asked to take a closer look at the badge. The guy was a fucking meat inspector. Just because somebody flashes a badge doesn't mean they are a cop. Especially if they are all irate and shoving people.

Come on Igor, you know full well that I am running the previous argument to it's conclusion.
The story stated that he identified himself as an officer.
You should know that showing a badge is part of id-ing when not in uniform.
If you can pretend the badge must be fake why can't you pretend the uniform is?




Maybe you should have read the rest of the article.

Later that evening, Medrano and Gonzalez contacted each other via Facebook. In one message, which Medrano showed to police detectives, Gonzalez allegedly wrote, "I killed the guy -- haha J.K. guey. I saw that (expletive) on the news."

Morales argued Gonzalez didn't sucker punch Molina, and that the entire incident lasted between 15 and 25 seconds. Morales also said initial media reports described Molina's injuries as "non life-threatening."


His lawyer has to describe it that way, what's he going to say, my client is a vicious killer and deserves to die?
They also, according to your article heard him tell someone to call 911, not the act of a person looking to start a fight at 3-1 odds. They also admit that they knew Gomez was guilty which undermines them still further.
The statement you quoted is worthless.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 11/23/2013 5:09:45 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:30:13 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

generally or not, nobody gives a fuck, a badge dont mean shit, generally.  And it is speculation at this point whether he showed it or not, anyone can get a badge.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=police%20badge&sprefix=police+bad%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Apolice%20badge

no logic demonstrated to date, fellas.

How did I know you were going to say that.
There are plenty of costume shops with police "uniforms" and anyone can paint a car.
So go ahead and kill the cop, then claim self defense cause you didn't believe it?
Get real that isn't going to fly.


Wait a minute...was this guy in uniform? Was he driving a police car? No? As far as showing a badge or ID, I have no idea whether he did or not. So why are you bringing up that nonsense? If some guy drives up to me in a family car, gets out all irate, then shoves me, whether he showed a possibly phoney badge or not, chances are that isn't going to sit too well with me. He wasn't trying to detain the kid...he just shoved him. At that point I think the kid had a bit of a right to self defense. However, continuing to pummel the guy when he was down and out went above and beyond self defense. To me, that is where he would, and should, have problems.

When I was in my early teens, I was with my dad when he was making a left hand turn into a parking lot. It was late afternoon, and the sun was glaring off of the tail lights making them difficult to see. The guy behind us nearly ran into us while we were waiting for traffic to clear to make the turn. The guy pulled in behind us, got out of his car all irate, pulled out a badge and flashed it at my dad and started yelling at him, saying he hadn't signaled. My mother asked to take a closer look at the badge. The guy was a fucking meat inspector. Just because somebody flashes a badge doesn't mean they are a cop. Especially if they are all irate and shoving people.

Come on Igor, you know full well that I am running the previous argument to it's conclusion.
The story stated that he identified himself as an officer.
You should know that showing a badge is part of id-ing when not in uniform.
If you can pretend the badge must be fake why can't you pretend the uniform is?




Maybe you should have read the rest of the article.

Later that evening, Medrano and Gonzalez contacted each other via Facebook. In one message, which Medrano showed to police detectives, Gonzalez allegedly wrote, "I killed the guy -- haha J.K. guey. I saw that (expletive) on the news."

Morales argued Gonzalez didn't sucker punch Molina, and that the entire incident lasted between 15 and 25 seconds. Morales also said initial media reports described Molina's injuries as "non life-threatening."


His lawyer has to describe it that way, what's he going to say, my client is a vicious killer and deserves to die?
They also, according to your article heard him tell someone to call 911, not the act of a person looking to start a fight at 3-1 odds. They also admit that they knew Gomez was guilty which undermines them still further.
The statement you quoted is worthless.


Gonzales' lawyers job is to defend him. As it is the DA's job to try to prove him guilty. I only posted that link because you insisted that a badge was shown. The defense said a badge was not shown and the prosecution has not made any statement regarding that. What you just posted in response has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a badge was shown.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:30:41 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

If they will kill you, they will lie about you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:34:04 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Well, if the 3 against 1 defendants say that they were in reasonable 'fear for their lives' because of an attack for no reason by someone screaming anti-gay epithets and refusing to show his badge, then clearly it would be impossible for them to lie.

And I suppose that continuing to beat him as he was unconscious was due to the equally rational 'fear' that he might have been a  zombie?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story



(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:37:48 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

If they will kill you, they will lie about you.


granted.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:39:53 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		I have no idea what his defense will be for that. And btw- only one person was charged with his murder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Well, if the 3 against 1 defendants say that they were in reasonable 'fear for their lives' because of an attack for no reason by someone screaming anti-gay epithets and refusing to show his badge, then clearly it would be impossible for them to lie.

And I suppose that continuing to beat him as he was unconscious was due to the equally rational 'fear' that he might have been a  zombie?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story





(in reply to EdBowie)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:44:28 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

If they will kill you, they will lie about you.


granted.


But this does not change the fact that so far it has not been proven that a badge was shown and the defense says a badge was not shown. It is up to the DA to refute that claim.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:45:18 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I have no idea what his defense will be for that. And btw- only one person was charged with his murder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Well, if the 3 against 1 defendants say that they were in reasonable 'fear for their lives' because of an attack for no reason by someone screaming anti-gay epithets and refusing to show his badge, then clearly it would be impossible for them to lie.

And I suppose that continuing to beat him as he was unconscious was due to the equally rational 'fear' that he might have been a  zombie?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story






Gonzales knocked him down and beat on him when he was out.
It took less than one minute.
Gonzales still had to believe Molina was, after having 911 called, going to start a fight at 3-1 odds.
Any claim on non malevolence is destroyed by the continuation of the beating.
Before you say it 30 seconds is forever in a fight.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/23/2013 5:52:30 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I have no idea what his defense will be for that. And btw- only one person was charged with his murder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Well, if the 3 against 1 defendants say that they were in reasonable 'fear for their lives' because of an attack for no reason by someone screaming anti-gay epithets and refusing to show his badge, then clearly it would be impossible for them to lie.

And I suppose that continuing to beat him as he was unconscious was due to the equally rational 'fear' that he might have been a  zombie?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

From the article:

"It's unfortunate this person passed away, but I believe the facts point towards self-defense," Morales said, adding that Molina was not carrying a badge and was not in uniform.
Morales also said when the teens asked Molina to show his badge, Molina reportedly responded, "I don't have to show you anything."

Link to story






Gonzales knocked him down and beat on him when he was out.
It took less than one minute.
Gonzales still had to believe Molina was, after having 911 called, going to start a fight at 3-1 odds.
Any claim on non malevolence is destroyed by the continuation of the beating.
Before you say it 30 seconds is forever in a fight.


I am not claiming anything. I only posted a link to the story that referenced an issue that you and some of the others were disputing. (ie- whether or not a badge was shown). Trust me, I know exactly how long 30 seconds in a fight can be. (forever) Especially if you don't know when (or if) your back up is coming.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/25/2013 11:06:59 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Does anyone know if El Paso is one of the many Departments that has officers take their cars home?
If there was a marked car in Molina's drive that would eliminate the idea the thugs didn't know he was a cop.
Of course, you would think he would have used the police car to go after them.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/25/2013 11:07:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		lol, its just common sense..........lol.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/25/2013 11:16:37 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

lol, its just common sense..........lol.

Baring special circumstances like the police car was blocked in by his personal car, then by the time he moved his car and switched over it could be too late to bother.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/25/2013 11:19:45 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Or, a who fuckin cares, the kid has a stand your ground, prima facie.  Cars in driveways meaning not one fucking thing in this world.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: El Paso police officer murdered by unarmed 17 year old - 11/25/2013 11:46:41 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Or, a who fuckin cares, the kid has a stand your ground, prima facie.  Cars in driveways meaning not one fucking thing in this world.

You are simply trying to make a murder stand your ground for your own political agenda.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 138
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