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Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 8:01:20 AM

vincentML

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Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 8:07:29 AM

MsMJAY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?

VIDEO

ARTICLE

He is a human he is alive.
The parents decision was theirs to make and can neither be justified or called selfish by anyone else.
My spiritual belief/philosophy of life is that there is a whole lot of painful stuff in life- and that sucks. If you find any good, any value, any hope, any happiness; you should grab it and hold on tight. If the parents have found any of that then I rejoice with and for them.

< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 11/22/2013 8:14:05 AM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 8:21:30 AM

DaddySatyr

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Having lost a child eleven months ago, I am familiar with the pain a parent feels. We're not made to out-last our children.

I am almost completely against abortion. Situations like this make me take stock.

With this post, I will not actually answer the OP question but I will address it, hopefully well.

I am hard-pressed to think of a more clear-cut case (I think I remember this story and I think the parents knew, fairly early on in the pregnancy, that this child would be born without a brain) where an argument can be made about the lack of "quality of life". There is little doubt that this child would have little living in his life. For me, that does indeed give me pause to re-examine my beliefs about life.

I would not presume to know what this particular set of parents went through or will go through. I will say: God bless them for knowing the hardships they were facing and for not just "taking the easy way out" and going with the prevailing (medical) thought of "Well, he'd only live a few hours, anyway. We might as well abort".

Obviously, this child has surprised quite a few people who thought they knew "better".

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 10:51:19 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?

I find myself struck by the way you put quotes around the words "child" and "him." He laughs, he smiles, yet you put quotes around "living" too. And there is nothing at the story link to suggest that his parents knew about his condition before his birth. So when you ask if he should have been aborted, how precisely would that work? Would that be an after-birth abortion?

"After-birth abortion." Heh. We're in deep shit folks. Orwell was right.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/22/2013 10:53:49 AM >

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 10:53:03 AM

SeekingTrinity

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I was wondering about the quotation marks too.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 11:08:35 AM

thishereboi

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That would be up to the mother and from the article she doesn't seem to regret her decision. I am not sure that I would have made the same choice but that has no relevance on whether she should or not. A women has the right to say if she wants an abortion and that works both ways. She also has the choice to carry the baby to term.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 11:54:30 AM

DomKen

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FR
It's irrelevant. If that women wants to care for a person shaped lump of flesh that is her concern. Not one dime of tax money should go to it's care though.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 1:00:02 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?

I find myself struck by the way you put quotes around the words "child" and "him." He laughs, he smiles, yet you put quotes around "living" too. And there is nothing at the story link to suggest that his parents knew about his condition before his birth. So when you ask if he should have been aborted, how precisely would that work? Would that be an after-birth abortion?

"After-birth abortion." Heh. We're in deep shit folks. Orwell was right.

K

Of course, the quotations marks were deliberate. There are several issues raised by this story. I will suggest a few and perhaps other posters will add to or challenge these issues.
So, in no particular order:

The defect occurs between the 23rd and 26th day after conception. It is not a late term development. Raises the issue of adequate natal monitoring and care in American medicine. The condition can be diagnosed by apparently routine means during pregnancy.

The defect occurs more commonly in women who take certain (?) meds for epilepsy or are insulin dependent. We don't know the mother's prenatal health unfortunately but it is an issue.

The mother's right to choose is an issue. If properly diagnosed a pregnant woman can choose to abort or carry to term. But there is a corollary issue of the right to choice of all other pregnant women as well. So, if Mrs Coke had that right, why not others regardless of condition of the embryo?

Is the embryo a 'person' or since apparently lacking consciousness and self-awareness is the embryo's irreversible neocortical condition the same as brain death and is the embryo in a persistent vegetative state? Brain stem reflexes are not the same as consciousness and self-awareness to my thinking.

Shades of Terri Schiavo. Were the Schiavos or the Cokes too emotionally involved to make a decision in the best interest of their charge? Should the state have intervened?

Is state intervention a slippery slope backwards to eugenics?

Nickolas Coke lived almost all of four years. (If not aborted these fetuses are not resuscitated aggressively at birth and usually die within a few hours) What can we speculate about the quality of that life? Was there a life? Was his life any more fulfilling then a dog or a cat kept as a family pet? Or maybe a pet turtle?

Was Nickolas anymore than a breathing doll? May I use the term "creepy" without causing everybody's balls to get in an uproar or every female poster's ovary pair to spin around? It seems kind of creepy to me that the Cokes would carry this brainless doll around with them and pretend that it had a personality. I realize I do not walk in their shoes but if there is not an ethical issue here maybe there is a psychological issue.

Are the Cokes abusing Nickolas with their charade of expectations? I guess they are doing him no harm. That would be the first ethical issue. But don't ethical obligations extend to a duty to provide dignity?

Finally, did Nickolas possess a soul, and did that make any difference?

Some of my info comes from the wiki article.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 1:06:47 PM

vincentML

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quote:

He is a human he is alive.
The parents decision was theirs to make and can neither be justified or called selfish by anyone else.
My spiritual belief/philosophy of life is that there is a whole lot of painful stuff in life- and that sucks. If you find any good, any value, any hope, any happiness; you should grab it and hold on tight. If the parents have found any of that then I rejoice with and for them.

Was he alive, MJay? Was he human?

And you have no issues with the parents "exploiting" Nickolas for their own happiness?

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 1:09:16 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I am hard-pressed to think of a more clear-cut case (I think I remember this story and I think the parents knew, fairly early on in the pregnancy, that this child would be born without a brain) where an argument can be made about the lack of "quality of life". There is little doubt that this child would have little living in his life. For me, that does indeed give me pause to re-examine my beliefs about life.

I would not presume to know what this particular set of parents went through or will go through. I will say: God bless them for knowing the hardships they were facing and for not just "taking the easy way out" and going with the prevailing (medical) thought of "Well, he'd only live a few hours, anyway. We might as well abort".

A thoughtful reply DS. Thank you.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 1:45:50 PM

MsMJAY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

He is a human he is alive.
The parents decision was theirs to make and can neither be justified or called selfish by anyone else.
My spiritual belief/philosophy of life is that there is a whole lot of painful stuff in life- and that sucks. If you find any good, any value, any hope, any happiness; you should grab it and hold on tight. If the parents have found any of that then I rejoice with and for them.

Was he alive, MJay? Was he human?

And you have no issues with the parents "exploiting" Nickolas for their own happiness?

Yes. Yes
No.

To some extent all parents exploit our children for our own happiness. At least all good parents. I chose to have a child because I knew she would add happiness and joy to my life. And she does. Just FYI- I am pretty much a hard nosed pro-choice advocate so I would be in support of whatever choice the parents made.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 2:04:52 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

Is the embryo a 'person' or since apparently lacking consciousness and self-awareness is the embryo's irreversible neocortical condition the same as brain death and is the embryo in a persistent vegetative state? Brain stem reflexes are not the same as consciousness and self-awareness to my thinking.

It's situations right on the 'edge' that test our moral principles the best. I used to teach a subject at the Open Uni that dealt with 'ecological ethics'. One of the topics that came up was that of the question, 'Why should human lives be more important than those of other animals?'. That would be especially difficult if you threw in the matter of vivisection.

It always got tricky, fast. At first, students would list the attributes of humans as opposed to other animals (consciousness, self-awareness, ability to feel compassion, intelligence) . . . and then contrast the lack of these in non-human species with the holding of them by humans.

But, clearly, right out there on the margins - as in cases just like this - there are humans who don't hold these 'ordinary human attributes'. They don't even hold the attributes we have in common with other primates, or even other mammals. Yet still they're humans and, ipso facto, their lives are valuable in a way that those of other species just aren't and can never be.

I'm not sure that any of the foregoing makes a difference, though. I guess the overriding point is that as modern humans, with all that we've got and all we can do, if we want to save our offspring, then we should, assuming that there could be some benefit to the child and not just a world of pain, and assuming it doesn't hurt ourselves too much.

This situation is just an utter, complete bastard. My main thought is: there but for the grace of God go I. I've no idea what I'd do in the parents' situation - other than that I know that the moral and emotional views of almost everybody other than the medics, me, my partner and the child, would have to be deemed irrelevant.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 2:52:59 PM

farglebargle

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Same answer as always. OTHER PEOPLE'S PRIVATE MEDICAL ISSUES AREN'T ANYONE ELSE'S CONCERN.

And it's mighty impolite to go sticking your nose into other people's private business.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 2:57:27 PM

PeonForHer

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Indeed.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 3:04:26 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Just FYI- I am pretty much a hard nosed pro-choice advocate so I would be in support of whatever choice the parents made.

My feelings exactly.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 3:20:18 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Is he a human person or simply a "living" doll?
Were the parents justified or selfish in nurturing "him."
How does this story resonate with your spiritual belief or philosophy of life?

VIDEO

ARTICLE

I think he's beautiful :)

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 3:41:09 PM

MsMJAY

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So, if Mrs Coke had that right, why not others regardless of condition of the embryo?

They do have that right.

Is the embryo a 'person' or since apparently lacking consciousness and self-awareness is the embryo's irreversible neocortical condition the same as brain death and is the embryo in a persistent vegetative state?

Some believe the embryo is a person others believe not. I tend to mostly agree with the ones who say not.

Shades of Terri Schiavo. Were the Schiavos or the Cokes too emotionally involved to make a decision in the best interest of their charge?

Yes they were; but unfortunately everyone who has ever had a life or death decision to make regarding a loved one is "too emotionally involved"; they all do the very best they can under stressful and heartbreaking circumstances. I don't judge them.

Should the state have intervened? Is state intervention a slippery slope backwards to eugenics?

No. Its not a slippery slope. Its just uncalled for and its the family's right and private decision to make.

What can we speculate about the quality of that life?

I can't begin to speculate about the quality of his life. Most people are not all that thrilled with the quality of their own lives.

Was there a life?

yes.

Was his life any more fulfilling then a dog or a cat kept as a family pet? Or maybe a pet turtle?

I don't know if his life was any more fulfilling than that. I don't know if my own life (or yours) is more fulfilling than that. And I have a family pet. Watching him eat my food, poop on my floor, and hop up in my bed at night to sleep, I would say his quality of life is pretty good. He is a very much loved pet.

Was Nickolas anymore than a breathing doll?
Yes he was more.

May I use the term "creepy" without causing everybody's balls to get in an uproar or every female poster's ovary pair to spin around?
You may use that word but just because you find it creepy does not mean that the parents do. Again, their choice.

Are the Cokes abusing Nickolas with their charade of expectations?

No they are not.

But don't ethical obligations extend to a duty to provide dignity?

We cannot quantify "providing dignity" neither do we know the day to day details of their lives. Perhaps based on their own ethics they were providing it.

Finally, did Nickolas possess a soul, and did that make any difference?

I personally believe that he did. But no it doesn't make any difference.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 4:35:23 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

I am pretty much a hard nosed pro-choice advocate so I would be in support of whatever choice the parents made.

Yes. Choice works both ways. It's not a choice I would have made, but what does that matter? I'm not the one making the choice or having to live with the consequences.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:21:18 PM

jlf1961

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I dont know at what point before birth they would have been able to discover the defect. Early enough, then it was up to the parents.

However to abort out of hand because of defect sounds like beginning of eugenics. There is already talk about designer babies, so there is a problem.

Now genetic modification after birth sounds like a good Idea, I mean I would like to be eight inches taller, 75% more muscle mass, bones with the strength of steel bars... and an IQ well over 200, and be the example of God like good looks, of course with my luck, I would get the good looks of a titan, specifically the Kraken.

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RE: Should this "child" have been aborted? - 11/22/2013 5:48:45 PM

vincentML

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quote:

To some extent all parents exploit our children for our own happiness. At least all good parents. I chose to have a child because I knew she would add happiness and joy to my life. And she does. Just FYI- I am pretty much a hard nosed pro-choice advocate so I would be in support of whatever choice the parents made.

We agree on the choice issue, MJAY.

Also agree that good parents should hopefully derive joy from their children but you can't always get what you want. Many a good parent suffers misery because of their children. Otherwise, don't good parents owe a duty to the welfare, happiness and development of their child? I am not convinced that side of the ledger is possible to fulfill in this (admittedly extreme) circumstance.

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