RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it??

RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (Full Version)

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SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:01:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Making excuses such as "fetishes are complex and hard to define" to absolve people of responsibility for their refusal to examine their ingrained prejudices is utter poppycock. I'm not sure the point is an absolution of responsibility, as much as it is creating a safe space where it's possible to accept responsibility. I understand what you're saying and I respect your position. I have often argued that activists need to guard against setting up a stereotype threat environment. However, there are two points I would like you to consider: 1. I have stated multiple times that I enjoy gender play as long as it is positive and affirming. So have many other women on the thread. Yet this fact seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. 2. The comments here are very similar to the comments that happen in every discussion of the oppression of women. Ever. When men come to the discussion, women are silenced, told we are over-reacting or, worse, that we are prejudiced for voicing our objections. That's some fucked up shit, right there. Where is our safe space to have these discussions?

AAkasha -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:05:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I accept your feelings and attitude toward race play. But let's reverse the roles for a moment. I am not African-American, so I seriously doubt you would appreciate it if I decided that race play was not based on racist tropes and insisted it was not despite your objection and your belief that it was. Likewise, I doubt you would appreciate it if I told you that yes, the stereotypes are racist, but it doesn't matter and I'm not a racist because intent is like, totes magical, y'all (click the link, seriously). I imagine you would expect me to sit down, shut up, and listen to the reasons why you felt it was rooted in racism, just as you would expect me to do in any other discussion about race issues. You would probably also expect me to accept those reasons, regardless whether or not I agree, because I'm light-skinned enough to benefit from white privilege and, therefore, do not experience that type of oppression. The same thing applies to you, as a man. You don't get to decide what is or is not oppressive to women. You do not get to argue that humiliation in conjunction with feminization is not rooted in misogynistic tropes when most of the women who have posted on the thread have said they feel that it is. You also do not get to argue that we are wrong, because you do not experience this type of oppression. You get to listen and accept. With all due respect, and not directed to you Sylvere or anyone in general, I do wish one thing. I wish there would be a little more patience in general and acceptance of the following things: 1 - Yes, there are a lot of "sissies" and "f/fem enthusiasts" who are self absorbed, do-me assholes 2 - There are JUST as many subs who just randomly "pick up" this language because they read it somewhere and have no other meaningful way to communicate what are otherwise extremely complicated feelings and emotions; they use the only language they know - sadly, it's shitty language picked up in porn 3 - There seems to be some underlying joy around these parts to absolutely demolish said confused individuals the moment they slip up and say something out of line because, to be honest, they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when they try to articulate why it turns them on to wear panties, or what "forced" means, or what "humiliation" means, or what "shame" means 4 - The word "forced" is a loaded term and could be applied to many forms of BDSM, not just feminization. I like forced bondage. If you twist and writhe and protest when you are flogged, guess what, perhaps you like forced flogging - does that mean you have a deep seated desire to be beaten and need to question your sanity, just because you are not saying "Please, another!" What about forced sex, forced blow jobs?Any power exchange could have the word "forced" in front of it; the term "forced" in front of feminization probably was applied at some point to simply differentiate from crossdressing, which is totally different. It doesn't mean the subject holds contempt for femininity. Edited to add: In case anyone things I am waving the flag in defense of all "sissies" and self absorbed f/fem enthusiasts, trust me, I am just as frustrated as everyone else - but don't take it out on everyone - give them a fair chance. I would say 85% of those into f/fem who approach me are totally self absorbed, but the few that "get it" are very self aware individuals. I think what is happening is that a lot of femdoms are just irritated at the fetish in general. Akasha

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:24:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan 1. I have stated multiple times that I enjoy gender play as long as it is positive and affirming. So have many other women on the thread. Yet this fact seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle. 2. The comments here are very similar to the comments that happen in every discussion of the oppression of women. Ever. When men come to the discussion, women are silenced, told we are over-reacting or, worse, that we are prejudiced for voicing our objections. That's some fucked up shit, right there. Where is our safe space to have these discussions? Fact 1 isn't lost on me, I promise. Regarding Fact 2, maybe the answer is, "Someplace on the internet that is moderated differently." Or, alternatively, someone could start an OP that requests posters adhere to certain safe space parameters. It would be nonbinding, but at least I would try to adhere to it, and I think a lot of people would. Part of what shapes my responses here is that I want to respect the wishes of the OP of this thread. She's remained active and respectful to others, so her wishes matter to me. She sounds pretty new, and if I wanted an expert opinion about something, I'd ask you before I'd ask her, but, hell, everyone starts somewhere.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:32:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha With all due respect, and not directed to you Sylvere or anyone in general, I do wish one thing. I wish there would be a little more patience in general and acceptance of the following things: I know you said you aren't directing your comments at me, specifically, but there are a couple of points I want to address. quote: 2 - There are JUST as many subs who just randomly "pick up" this language because they read it somewhere and have no other meaningful way to communicate what are otherwise extremely complicated feelings and emotions; they use the only language they know - sadly, it's shitty language picked up in porn So what? Just because they don't know how to language doesn't mean they are exempt from responsibility for educating themselves so they can do better. quote: 3 - There seems to be some underlying joy around these parts to absolutely demolish said confused individuals the moment they slip up and say something out of line because, to be honest, they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when they try to articulate why it turns them on to wear panties, or what "forced" means, or what "humiliation" means, or what "shame" means Would you accept someone who used the N-word because that was all they knew and say nothing? Would you expect everyone to pat that person on the head and say "it's okay, you didn't know better" or would you expect people to say "hey, that's not okay and you need to stop using that word"? What if that person wore a racist Halloween costume; would you say that was okay and everyone should overlook it because the person didn't know better? Or would you expect people to tell that person why it's not acceptable? Because what you're doing is giving a pass to people who engage in a subtle form of misogyny on the grounds that "they didn't know better." That is no more acceptable to me than wearing a racist Halloween costume is to the cultures being appropriated by it. It's one thing if someone who is called out on their bad behavior tries to learn from their mistakes. It's another when they argue that they did nothing wrong and try to twist the argument around until they look like the victim. It doesn't wash and attaching a sexual motivation to it doesn't make it more palatable.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:40:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Regarding Fact 2, maybe the answer is, "Someplace on the internet that is moderated differently." Or, alternatively, someone could start an OP that requests posters adhere to certain safe space parameters. It would be nonbinding, but at least I would try to adhere to it, and I think a lot of people would. Oh, you mean like this one? Feminization: Help, Advice & Support quote: Part of what shapes my responses here is that I want to respect the wishes of the OP of this thread. She's remained active and respectful to others, so her wishes matter to me. She sounds pretty new, and if I wanted an expert opinion about something, I'd ask you before I'd ask her, but, hell, everyone starts somewhere. The OP invited input from everyone, including people who don't like forced femme, and asked for their reasons. Then she backpedaled and whined about the responses she got. No bacon.

AAkasha -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:45:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan Would you accept someone who used the N-word because that was all they knew and say nothing? Would you expect everyone to pat that person on the head and say "it's okay, you didn't know better" or would you expect people to say "hey, that's not okay and you need to stop using that word"? What if that person wore a racist Halloween costume; would you say that was okay and everyone should overlook it because the person didn't know better? Or would you expect people to tell that person why it's not acceptable? Because what you're doing is giving a pass to people who engage in a subtle form of misogyny on the grounds that "they didn't know better." That is no more acceptable to me than wearing a racist Halloween costume is to the cultures being appropriated by it. It's one thing if someone who is called out on their bad behavior tries to learn from their mistakes. It's another when they argue that they did nothing wrong and try to twist the argument around until they look like the victim. It doesn't wash and attaching a sexual motivation to it doesn't make it more palatable. Of course not. But you are using an example where people see learned behavior all around them in the mainstream, in daily life, from peers, from parents. Where do people, unfortunately, get a kink education? First they struggle in their head, then maybe the look at some porn (men) and then if they look at too much porn (again, men, especially those into f/fem, they DEFINITELY get screwed up) and by the time they get here or to a real woman they have to be unraveled piece by piece. They were not BORN with bad ideas. As I said in a previous post, for many, it started as harmlessly as innocently trying on a pair of panties one day and realizing it turned them on and getting a little embarrassed, but being too turned on to not keep doing it. You put ANY vanilla guy in panties he's going to get a boner. That does NOT make him a misogynist for being ashamed about it. He's ashamed because he feels silly. Yes, there ARE some subs/men who have misogyny wrapped up in their kink -- but my guess it's a LOT less than what you think. Akasha

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 9:50:31 AM)
I don't remember that thread. Was I on it? It might have been during one of the times I was away. The first two pages look much more constructive than the first two pages of this thread, that's for sure. And, lol, yes. The OP changed her mind about what she wanted the thread to focus on. But I can roll with that. She had no idea what she was getting herself into. So I saw the change as due to inexperience, not dishonesty.

kalikshama -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:01:20 AM)
There was some rather disingenuous backpeddling earlier in the thread, but I will assume the OP learned from this and will craft her next thread more carefully. (And I do hope there is a next thread, as this one has been very educational.)

JetOnly -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:04:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I don't remember that thread. Was I on it? It might have been during one of the times I was away. The first two pages look much more constructive than the first two pages of this thread, that's for sure. And, lol, yes. The OP changed her mind about what she wanted the thread to focus on. But I can roll with that. She had no idea what she was getting herself into. So I saw the change as due to inexperience, not dishonesty. Thankyou, I had and have no intention to change the focus of the thread, my question was totaly based on something that was brand new to me and I was trying to understand viewpoints - I did have an assumption that everyone understood the term 'forced' in the context of BDSM and I assumed that people respected each others kinks and could put their perspectives forward without insulting people who were into the kink as it is a new idea to me my thoughts and ideas on it are evolving as I learn - thats how I roll (btw it is the forced fem thing that is new to me - someone who dosent want to be a woman, someone who dosent want to look like a woman, someone who dosent want to dress themselves as a woman - but someone who wants someone to want to dress them as a woman. I have CD and TG friends and this is, to me, a different thing again) and yes Im female :) and I really do have the friend who confessed this desire that he has never mentioned to anyone else or acted out in any way.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:09:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha But you are using an example where people see learned behavior all around them in the mainstream, in daily life, from peers, from parents. Are you saying that ideas of femininity, masculinity, and gender stereotypes don't come from daily life, parents, and portrayals in mainstream media? Really? quote: As I said in a previous post, for many, it started as harmlessly as innocently trying on a pair of panties one day and realizing it turned them on and getting a little embarrassed, but being too turned on to not keep doing it. You put ANY vanilla guy in panties he's going to get a boner. That does NOT make him a misogynist for being ashamed about it. He's ashamed because he feels silly. And why does he feel silly and embarrassed? Because of the gender stereotypes he's already picked up from all those sources you cited. And those stereotypes are steeped in misogyny. If they weren't he wouldn't feel embarrassed or that there was something taboo about his actions. He might enjoy the color or the feel of the fabric but there would be no shame in that feeling unless he had already been conditioned to think there was something to be ashamed about. That's the underlying issue. The guy doesn't have to be a raging men's rights activist or a pickup artist to be influenced by misogyny. All he has to do is be alive and in some way connected to society. Unless he was raised by ocelots on a jungle island with no human contact whatsoever, he's going to be affected to some extent. The question is whether or not he's willing to work to reject the societal narrative that equates becoming more like a woman with a humiliating loss of masculinity and, instead, embrace feminization because women are fabulous and femininity is grand.

PeonForHer -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:13:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan You don't get to decide what is or is not oppressive to women. You do not get to argue that humiliation in conjunction with feminization is not rooted in misogynistic tropes when most of the women who have posted on the thread have said they feel that it is. You also do not get to argue that we are wrong, because you do not experience this type of oppression. You get to listen and accept. The obvious question: would you say the same but with those genders reversed? Would you listen and accept when a man is telling you about the oppression he feels (from women or, more crucially I think here, other men and an entrenched idea of masculinity)?

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:18:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JetOnly I did have an assumption that everyone understood the term 'forced' in the context of BDSM and I assumed that people respected each others kinks and could put their perspectives forward without insulting people who were into the kink I don't see Sylvere or ChatteParfaitt disrespecting kinks or insulting kinksters. I see them trying to place human activity into a cultural context. If someone else decides that's an insult, that's on them. My point to Sylvere was that I thought some of the way it was phrased was impeding constructive communication on the thread. I don't think she's wrong. Maybe she's wrong about the degree of misogyny, which was more or less Akasha's point -- I just don't have enough information to take a position one way or the other. But I think one point missing from Akasha's analysis is that maybe the men she pantied are getting hard because it makes her hot, and not from the panties themselves. So I don't find her position fully convincing, because "woman who likes a taboo" would arouse almost any het man. Bottom line, I think Sylvere is more right than wrong, and I think you're making a mistake if you marginalize her points. I understand you want to defend and protect your friend, but that's not a good motivation for logical thinking.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan You don't get to decide what is or is not oppressive to women. You do not get to argue that humiliation in conjunction with feminization is not rooted in misogynistic tropes when most of the women who have posted on the thread have said they feel that it is. You also do not get to argue that we are wrong, because you do not experience this type of oppression. You get to listen and accept. The obvious question: would you say the same but with those genders reversed? Would you listen and accept when a man is telling you about the oppression he feels (from women or, more crucially I think here, other men and an entrenched idea of masculinity)? From an entrenched idea of masculinity, yes. But that oppression is more likely to come from other men and, again, traces back to misogynistic attitudes. I posted this article earlier and I think it speaks eloquently to that question: When Masculinity Fails Men. At this point in society, men are not and cannot be oppressed by women. Women simply do not have the power within the system to do that. That may change at some point, but it hasn't happened yet. If it does in my lifetime, you can be sure I will oppose it.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:30:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I am not African-American, so I seriously doubt you would appreciate it if I decided that race play was not based on racist tropes and insisted it was not despite your objection and your belief that it was. Actually, I wouldn't react very strongly to that. I'm not one of those people who believes that the victims get to determine the rules of engagement. quote: Likewise, I doubt you would appreciate it if I told you that yes, the stereotypes are racist, but it doesn't matter and I'm not a racist because intent is like, totes magical, y'all (click the link, seriously). I imagine you would expect me to sit down, shut up, and listen to the reasons why you felt it was rooted in racism, just as you would expect me to do in any other discussion about race issues. You would probably also expect me to accept those reasons, regardless whether or not I agree, because I'm light-skinned enough to benefit from white privilege and, therefore, do not experience that type of oppression. Actually, I wouldn't do any of those things. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that I can't change the world. I lived in the South (United States) for over a decade. I saw so many Confederate flags on the back of pickup trucks that it exceeds my ability to count. Yet, I don't think that every single owner of those vehicles was a racist. But the Confederate flag is a very hurtful symbol to many African-Americans (but not to me). Some of those kids who had the flags on the back of their vehicles couldn't tell you the smallest historical fact about the confederacy. Others could write a doctoral thesis on it. Others WERE racist. And still others just thought that it looked cool. I learned long ago that "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". So I share my perspective, and then I stop. I don't try to force my point of view upon anyone. I respect and understand your perspective, even though I don't completely agree with it. To me, that is a fine conclusion to this discussion. But I get the feeling that you don't see it that way. I get the feeling that you won't feel content until I say that you are right and I am wrong. Moreover, I think that you want me to acknowledge that women get to dictate what is misogynistic, and that men's opinions on the matter are irrelevant. But in my opinion, life is seldom so black and white. Most issues are grey, and truth is most often found somewhere in the middle. quote: The same thing applies to you, as a man. You don't get to decide what is or is not oppressive to women. You do not get to argue that humiliation in conjunction with feminization is not rooted in misogynistic tropes when most of the women who have posted on the thread have said they feel that it is. You also do not get to argue that we are wrong, because you do not experience this type of oppression. You get to listen and accept. And that is why I feel that one side of this discussion is lecturing like the rest of us are petulant school children who are being scolded. I have acknowledged that you have made valid points. But I will not go as far as to say "Yes, I am an unwashed misogynist, and I should be stoned for my sins." But that seems to be (figuratively) the only outcome that will be acceptable to you.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:39:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha As I said in a previous post, for many, it started as harmlessly as innocently trying on a pair of panties one day and realizing it turned them on and getting a little embarrassed, but being too turned on to not keep doing it. You put ANY vanilla guy in panties he's going to get a boner. That does NOT make him a misogynist for being ashamed about it. He's ashamed because he feels silly. AAkasha, As I stated before, you have captured my experience perfectly. Moreover, it sounds like you have placed men in that position. So you know that they were in that position because a WOMAN made them do it. Yes, I can acknowledge that some men spam every woman on the internet begging to be feminized. But that was not the case with me. I was introduced to forced fem by a woman. I appreciate your input to this thread. You get me! You can appreciate my experience and reaction. I have acknowledged that I don't fully understand why I found the situation to be erotic. Nor do I understand why I accepted the "forced" situation when I could have easily refused the command. But I did. I thought it was harmless fun between me and my Domme. Moreover, I was confused by the level of arousal that the situation caused. But now some are trying to make me feel like I inadvertently set the women's rights movement back by a few centuries. I don't see it that way, and I appreciate your willingness to not judge me so harshly for my response to wearing panties.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:44:35 AM)
Perhaps you felt more masculine because you were sexually pleasing a woman you found attractive, and simultaneously more emasculated because, well, panties and locker room stares? A luscious predicament.

mnottertail -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:45:43 AM)
I dont know that putting on womens panties is fomented by some either learned or inherent misogyny. In fact, this is so simultaneously laughable and repugnant, and seems as pure a misandry as one could effect if couched in similar weltanschauung. Walk a mile in my boxer briefs.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:48:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I am not African-American, so I seriously doubt you would appreciate it if I decided that race play was not based on racist tropes and insisted it was not despite your objection and your belief that it was. Actually, I wouldn't react very strongly to that. I'm not one of those people who believes that the victims get to determine the rules of engagement. Fair enough. quote: Actually, I wouldn't do any of those things. I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that I can't change the world. I live in the South (United States) for over a decade. I saw so many Confederate flags on the back of pickup trucks that it exceeds my ability to count. Yet, I don't think that every single owner of those vehicles was a racist. But the Confederate flag is a very hurtful symbol to many African-Americans (but not to me). Again, that's fair. What I'm getting at is that you do recognize that the Confederate flag is a hurtful symbol to many people, even though it doesn't bother you. You aren't trying to say those people have no right to be hurt or that they are wrong if they want to eliminate it. That, to me, is the difference here. quote: I get the feeling that you won't feel content until I say that you are right and I am wrong. What I want is for everyone to recognize how misogyny informs the stereotypes in question and understand why they are offensive. You don't have to agree, but you should at least be cognizant of how it works and not argue that it's not a real thing. quote: I have acknowledged that you have made valid points. But I will not go as far as to say "Yes, I am an unwashed misogynist, and I should be stoned for my sins." But that seems to be (figuratively) the only outcome that will be acceptable to you. See above. I do not believe you are a misogynist. After the length of time you and I have participated in this message board together, I'd have to be pretty dimwitted to think so. I appreciate that you have considered my points even if we don't completely agree. Thank you.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 10:58:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Perhaps you felt more masculine because you were sexually pleasing a woman you found attractive, and simultaneously more emasculated because, well, panties and locker room stares? A luscious predicament. This is how I saw it. Perhaps it's a simplistic way to look at it. I'm sure that there are centuries of societal values and programming that were the underlying reasons for my response. But I just saw it as "I'm embarrassed to to this, but I'm gonna do it because this beautiful woman that I would do anything to please has commanded me to do so". Then to my utter surprise, I got a raging boner when I put on the panties. At that moment, I discovered a new source of arousal. I didn't fully understand it, but the stiff-as-iron erection was proof that I was aroused. Call me a Neanderthal, but the acceptance of Her command, and my own erotic response to it was all that I really cared about in that scenario. The vast history of sexism and female oppression never entered my mind.

mnottertail -> RE: Forced fem - Dommes what do you like about it?? (11/26/2013 11:22:06 AM)
And I buy into that thought process in a big way, you see, men are not naive, we are just shallow. Some of us proud to be so. I know absolutely that sex takes place in my reptile brain, I don't; and I don't think men in the main ever aspire to have it in higher level functions, it is just so lucious in that warm little closet. Women on the other hand will take that process right up to egos and ids and whatevers in the higher orders, but men; there ain't gotta be a reason it is, it just is. And I don't know how to get it out any better than that. But by god, most of us do not hate women, in any way shape or form.

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