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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 4:38:22 AM   
vincentML


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Leaked paper reveals UN split over war on drugs
Latin American nations call for treatment strategy, claiming UN's prohibition stance plays into hands of paramilitary groups

Major international divisions over the global "war on drugs" have been revealed in a leaked draft of a UN document setting out the organisation's long-term strategy for combating illicit narcotics.

The draft, written in September and seen by the Observer, shows there are serious and entrenched divisions over the longstanding US-led policy promoting prohibition as an exclusive solution to the problem.

Instead, a number of countries are pushing for the "war on drugs" to be seen in a different light, which places greater emphasis on treating drug consumption as a public health problem, rather than a criminal justice matter.

MORE

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 4:53:50 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Of course you didn't, and I wouldn't expect you to, because in my understanding of your position you don't think there's any street in the first place. As it seems to me, at least, you've made that clear. There's only the brain. The mind is the brain in action. And accordingly, there is no mind-body problem either, because there is only the body. So I hope you can come back soon to explain how dead matter came to find itself sitting at a keyboard posting to a message board, helplessly experiencing the choices of a brain it cannot control. Because that's a dark and peculiar view of life, Vincent.

The universe is what it is whether we approve of it or not.

Dark and peculiar on your street, K. Not on mine

You are partially wrong about my position. There is a street. Major systems such as endocrine, immune, heart-lung are constantly exchanging information with the brain. Not all of that information rises to consciousness however. There is no awareness of white cell activity in the spleen when antigens invade the body, for example. The brain is the mind. The brain generates consciousness just as it generates walking, talking, and screwing. There is no mind/body problem except in the minds of ancient philosophers. So yes, I am a monist not a dualist. Perhaps you can tell me the source of subjective experience if not the brain.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 4:59:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I have no idea what talking point website, email, or TEDx chat you are getting the number from, Vince, and I don't see where it has anything to do with the conversation anyway.

I gave you the link. You scoffed. Its significance is in the failure of our social response to addicts.

quote:

As far as treatment when it is time, I'm all in favor of taking a piece of the money we would save by ending the ridiculous war on drugs, and some of the increased revenues from all that black market money brought into the light, and establishing a solid and easily accessible network of treatment centers. (Addiction is contagious, put it under the public health budget.)

Wonderful. We agree on what should be done. Now we disagree only on the timing (see Tweakabelle's last post)

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 6:37:20 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I would agree that the war on drugs is a war on addicts. When I'm in district court in Baltimore City it just looks the like the BALTO City police are picking upon the poor and the downtrodden when it comes to drug offenses. The policing is expensive, intrusive, and it diverts resources away from more serious crimes. The illegality of the drugs spawns an expensive black market and an incentive for theft and robbery crimes.


The problem is the war on drugs is being run by idiots.

I mean wtf:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/03/AR2005050301638.html

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:07:06 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

The problem is that we (society) are unwilling to spend the resources to get addicts to a clear state of mind where they can make that decision.


I of course am not a spokesman for AA; I speak only of my own experience.
But as a 23-year sober alcoholic I can tell you that most of the recovering people I know don't think "society" needs to "spend resources" to get us to a place from which we want recovery.
Only pain and hardship get us there.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:17:03 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

The problem is that we (society) are unwilling to spend the resources to get addicts to a clear state of mind where they can make that decision.


I of course am not a spokesman for AA; I speak only of my own experience.
But as a 23-year sober alcoholic I can tell you that most of the recovering people I know don't think "society" needs to "spend resources" to get us to a place from which we want recovery.
Only pain and hardship get us there.

Our primitive ancestors huddled together in the night on the savannah and in the jungles, and ignited fires to keep out the fearsome beasts and demons so that all could be safe, even the sickest among them and even those who could not overcome the pain and hardship.

It is called the social contract. It is a moral imperative I think.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:24:51 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Our primitive ancestors huddled together in the night on the savannah and in the jungles, and ignited fires to keep out the fearsome beasts and demons so that all could be safe, even the sickest among them and even those who could not overcome the pain and hardship.

It is called the social contract. It is a moral imperative I think.


If someone violated the social contract there were consequences one of which was getting tossed out in the cold.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:28:17 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

When I'm in district court in Baltimore City it just looks the like the BALTO City police are picking upon the poor and the downtrodden when it comes to drug offenses.


Well, yes.
But in my experience, by the time our addictions become so overwhelming as to require the presence of the boys in blue, we've slid a ways down the economic ladder...

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:34:53 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Our primitive ancestors huddled together in the night on the savannah and in the jungles, and ignited fires to keep out the fearsome beasts and demons so that all could be safe, even the sickest among them and even those who could not overcome the pain and hardship.

It is called the social contract. It is a moral imperative I think.


If someone violated the social contract there were consequences one of which was getting tossed out in the cold.

Violating the social contract means not helping those in need. Twenty million addicts over the age of 12 untreated. Shameful.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:35:19 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		If spending money would help recovery, I'd be all for it.
But it doesn't.
People often forget that drunks enjoy drinking, and addicts enjoy using.
Nothing is going to take us from our perceived pleasures until those pleasures become too painful to bear.

(Sound like anything else lol?)

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:35:32 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

When I'm in district court in Baltimore City it just looks the like the BALTO City police are picking upon the poor and the downtrodden when it comes to drug offenses.


Well, yes.
But in my experience, by the time our addictions become so overwhelming as to require the presence of the boys in blue, we've slid a ways down the economic ladder...



QFT



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:37:28 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

When I'm in district court in Baltimore City it just looks the like the BALTO City police are picking upon the poor and the downtrodden when it comes to drug offenses.


Well, yes.
But in my experience, by the time our addictions become so overwhelming as to require the presence of the boys in blue, we've slid a ways down the economic ladder...

Or perhaps as another poster suggested it is just easier for the boys in blue to arrest fogged out addicts and maybe schizophrenics off their meds, and as I would suggest here it is a boon to the prison industry. Capitalism at its worst, consuming its weakest.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:40:33 AM   
Kirata


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Trimming to the essentials...

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

you don't think there's any street in the first place... There's only the brain... And accordingly, there is no mind-body problem either

There is a street... The brain is the mind... There is no mind/body problem... So yes, I am a monist

If the brain is the mind, then there can be no street "between" them. And to call yourself a monist is grossly misleading. What you are arguing is reductive physicalism, notwithstanding that some people enjoy dressing it up as "Material Monism".

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:40:48 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

If spending money would help recovery, I'd be all for it.
But it doesn't.
People often forget that drunks enjoy drinking, and addicts enjoy using.
Nothing is going to take us from our perceived pleasures until those pleasures become too painful to bear.

(Sound like anything else lol?)

Those pleasures are not perceived; they are physiologically mandated.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:49:36 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Trimming to the essentials...

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

you don't think there's any street in the first place... There's only the brain... And accordingly, there is no mind-body problem either

There is a street... The brain is the mind... There is no mind/body problem... So yes, I am a monist

If the brain is the mind, then there can be no street "between" them. And to call yourself a monist is grossly misleading. What you are arguing is reductive physicalism, notwithstanding that some people enjoy dressing it up as "Material Monism".



Right. The essentials. Let's not get caught in a thicket of labels. The street is between the body systems and the brain and between the external world and the brain. If the brain is not the mind or if the mind is not a function of the brain . . . where lies the mind? From whence cometh the subjective?

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 7:50:50 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Those pleasures are not perceived; they are physiologically mandated.



Bullshit. People who are not pre-wired for addiction get high right along with those who are going to have a problem.

What is your baseline of experience with such substances, Vince?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 8:43:38 AM   
cloudboy


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I stand corrected and I apologize. Not only that, I agree with you.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 9:17:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The street is between the body systems and the brain and between the external world and the brain.

The "street" being referred to (if you'll look back) is the street between the mind and the brain. I said it was a two-way street. You said that the mind is the brain. Therefore, there can be no street "between" the mind and the brain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If the brain is not the mind or if the mind is not a function of the brain . . . where lies the mind? From whence cometh the subjective?

That's a very good question, and one that has occupied the greatest human minds for millennia. So I'm happy for you that you believe your claims and arguments show us the answer at last: The mind is the brain. Poof. End of problem.

Unfortunately, everybody knows that you don't know either, and it is ridiculous to demand that your proposition be accorded standing unless someone else, who also doesn't know, can defeat it by arguing something they don't know.

Why can't you just admit this is something we don't understand, and that you've adopted your explanation because it accords with your fondly held beliefs about other things you don't really know. Sort of like some kind of religion thing.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/1/2013 9:36:40 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 11:42:36 AM   
Wendel27


Posts: 162
Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		''Or perhaps as another poster suggested it is just easier for the boys in blue to arrest fogged out addicts and maybe schizophrenics off their meds,''

The main topic at hand is too involved and nuanced  for me to summon the energy to discuss on this forum Vincent but I must confess to taking particular umbrage at this sentiment. Dealing with addicts and the mentally ill is extremely difficult, frequently terrifying, and often very physically dangerous. I don't know what on earth would make arresting a paranoid schizophrenic off their medication seem easy in comparison...but from experience very little. Armed professional criminals perhaps and even then it's a toss up. The main reason ''the poor'' appear to be disproportionately targeted is that within that economic bracket other crime is rife in order to fund the lifestyle they find themselves in. The cocaine user who earns 70K a year is a criminal and a problem. But considerably less so [usually] then the broke heroin addict who robs people in the street. Or commits burglaries e.t.c. The same cocaine user will ,almost without doubt be less a cause for concern then someone who is acutely mentally ill and not medicating themselves.

Dealing with rich fools on drugs is usually exponentially easier than their less economically gifted peers. Having to deal with those who have mental illness, in particualr caused by or exacerbated by drug use, is nearly always the hardest of all. Not to mention the most draining, physically, mentally, emotionally and in terms of resources.

.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/1/2013 1:59:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

A MINIMUM of twelve months in a residential program has shown to provide the best results for recovery from addiction.



Totally unrealistic, in pretty much any case I can think of, but very nice, if you can afford it, I'm sure




It may indeed be totally unrealistic, but statistics have shown that it takes at least that long to fully recovery from addiction.

Of course it is not affordable for most, but what the "system" allows for merely gets the drugs out of their system and spends not nearly enough time teaching them the coping skills they need to deal with the cravings or the issues that got them addicted in the first place.

Because I respond through my phone (and my phone sucks) I can't give you links, but let me assure you that there have been a multitude of studies done proving that the longer the recovery program, the better the results.

As our current addiction programs merely get the addict clean and give them some form of twelve steps in a lousy thirty-ninety day program, they get a lot of repeat clients. With twelve months in an intensive recovery program, there are far fewer repeat clients.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 120
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