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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 9:21:16 AM   
LafayetteLady


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Actually, my brother was just one example of my experiences with addicts that have crossed my life, so no, I'm not using a single incident. Honestly, my brother was a major jerk off for as long as I can remember, even long before he turned to drugs. I know why he used, I know how much support he had when he did quit for a time and I know why he went back. In fact, I wrote a 20 page paper in college on his addiction, so don't think I'm not well versed in the subject. I examined the complete psychology of WHY he became addicted, what made him become sober, and what caused his death, as well, as much of the history of heroin.

My landlord, if he were still living in the house below mine would get as much loving support as I could give. I know why he went back to the bottle and it saddens me a great deal. His family in Florida is also taking a "tough love" approach. He is no longer allowed to see his grandchildren because his daughter is not going to expose them to his drunkeness (although he is basically a happy drunk). He had lost his license on a DUI, and can get it back by attending a class. He has gone to attend that class several times, however, each time he shows up drunk.

I'm glad that your friends responded to your help, I truly am. But like everything else, different individuals respond differently, and the key is knowing which protocol to use on each individual.

Also like truckinslave stated, you were dealing with people who wanted to get clean, I was dealing with people who wanted to continue to use.

Someone who wants to get clean is much more likely to respond to kindness, although realistically you still may need to use some tough love tactics.

What I will reiterate again, is you apparently did not spend your childhood (teenage years) dealing with a heroin addict, so your views on dealing with it are either through books and theory or second hand stories. First hand experience is something I would wish on very few people (yes, I admit there are people I hate enough to wish it on. I'm working on that).

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 9:35:32 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

But while he may not be the shining example of how those extended programs are the most successful, it is as you said, until the pain of those pleasures become too difficult to bear, sobriety isn't going to happen. All the support and handling with kid gloves in the world isn't going to do a thing until that happens.

Yes, there are many failures. At least some effort was made to help your landlord. Often when help is given the addict can't overcome his pain. This poor fellow seems to illustrate that. Evidently, the choice to want help is not so simple.




This is why I say that addiction is not simply some gene people have. I have yet to deal with any addict who doesn't have that psychological component as well.

When my landlord went into rehab, he stayed until he thought he was ready to leave, then immediately moved to Florida. His house when he left looked like his wife was going to return any moment, it was obvious he couldn't deal with her death. I know he received a great deal of counselling while in rehab, and perhaps some trigger happened in Florida, I don't know. I do know that I feel great sadness that it was that hard for him to deal with the loss of his wife.

My brother did the methodone program for quite a while. He was a bitter, angry young man who began therapy before he was a teenager. I know why he was bitter and angry, but can't figure out why he couldn't move past it because it wasn't a huge thing. The longest he was clean for was about a year. When my father got sick, my brother got clean. They had quite a tumultuous relationship over the years, mainly because my father really just didn't know how to handle him, and my father was not a demonstrative man when it came to affection. Until he got sick. Then, knowing he wasn't going to get better, he decided it was time to let us all know how much he loved us (for me there was never any doubt about that). My brother was finally having the relationship with his father that he wanted, then his father died. He remained clean for 7 more months, and then he overdosed, because he couldn't handle it. As much as I disliked my brother, that part of the story does cause me sadness, both for him and my mother.

ETA:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Great to hear stories of recovery.

But the glaring difference between the experiences you relate, and those related by LL is that you were dealing with people determined to quit, she with a person determined to use.

Night and day.

Determined to use? Or unable to overcome the need? And perhaps more than addiction was involved. I won't speculate on so personal a matter as LL offered. As Tweak said: you can't generalize from any one case.


There are some who are determined to use, and others who can't overcome the need. After all, we are talking about substances that are not simply a mental addiction, but a physical one as well. It wouldn't bother me if you speculated on my brother's situation at all. There was a lot more than addiction involved, which I have repeated over and over on this thread. There is ALWAYS a psychological component involved, although sometimes it is deeply rooted and many professionals are unable to find it.

So rather than you speculate, I will explain because perhaps it will help someone realize how deeply rooted in the subconscious these things are.

I am one of the reasons my brother became an addict. You see, we were both adopted, two years apart. When my parents adopted my brother, of course they were delighted to finally have a child after to horrid miscarriages. Each day, my father would come home from work and run to his son, to pick him up and do the daddy thing. Two years later, I came along. Now when my father came home, he went past my brother to pick up and love his little girl. Yes I was daddy's girl through and through. Even at the age of two, my brother felt this as a rejection, even though it wasn't meant to be one.

My parents never hid from us that we were adopted, but it wasn't talked about either. One day a neighbor child told my brother. I was called home from a friend's home, and my mother sat me down to tell me (they had already talked to my brother). I would say we were about 6 and 8 at the time. My mother told me, asked me if I had any questions, and my response was basically, "is that it? Can I go back out and play?" For my brother, it wasn't the same. It was another rejection. Though rarely vocalized, he always felt the pain of not being wanted by his bio mom. My father told us that my bio was like 21 or something and my brother's was 16. He also listed off various nationalities that we supposedly were (Italian always being the main, lol). Did he lie about it? Probably. I've never cared. For my brother, even though somewhere in his head he had to realize that being pregnant at 16 in 1961-62 was not a situation like today where teenage mothers abound, all he could rationalize was it was another person (remember my dad walking past him to me) who didn't want him.

He showed behavioral problems early on. They didn't call it ADHD then, they called it hyperkinesis. He was put on Ritalin, the only option available at that time. He was around ten years old. It gave him nosebleeds, and that zombie effect, so he was taken off of it. My brother was named after my father. In Italy, the name is a man's name; in Spanish, it is a woman's name. This caused a bit of bullying in school. Quite a bit actually, and my brother had few friends. However, there was always that "outsider" crowd that could take the misfits, especially the ones who would do wild things they found amusing even though it got my brother in trouble.

The he discovered marijuana. Didn't take long before he was dealing. During some of those few times he and I did get along, he would always give me some for me and my friends. When I say he was dealing, I mean there were big black hefty bags of it in his closet.

The drinking went along with the marijuana. At 14, he taught me how to bake peyote buttons and what to do if his acid trip went bad. At this same time he also attempted to get me to put a blot of acid on my tongue (I refused simply because I already knew anything he suggested like that would be for his entertainment like getting the dog high).

Eventually, someone introduced him to heroin. I'm not 100% sure who it was, but have my suspicions. I still remember the first time I saw him shoot up. My brother could have been the poster child for having the "addiction gene."

Some people will go in and out of rehab many times over the years. Hell, there are heroin addicts left over from Woodstock who still need methodone to stay straight.

The point, however, remains that until both the addiction and the psychological aspects are treated together, staying clean will remain a larger struggle. There were many "family meetings" and my brother was assured how much he was wanted and loved, but psychologically he couldn't wrap his head around it. And the drugs brought him friends he couldn't seem to make otherwise.

I will not say that tweak had it easy detoxing her friends in her home, but from what she posted she really only dealt with getting the drugs out of their system and providing them with a loving caring friend in the process.

But there is so much more to addiction than that which I don't think she is able to grasp. Certainly, she could respond saying that the above are my assumptions. Reality though is that it was a lifetime study of a young man's addiction made someone who even at a young age, had the ability to make those observations.

So there is the short summary of his life. I am not shy to tell his story, and have told it often hoping people could finally understand that recovery must be twofold; the addiction and the reason for it. Those horrible things that happened in my childhood led me in the direction I took career wise, and I spent more than 20 years helping people. Something I'm grateful I had the chance to do.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 12/2/2013 10:12:36 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 12:10:40 PM   
truckinslave


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Thanks for the fuller story.Context always helps.

quote:

This is why I say that addiction is not simply some gene people have.


I do not exactly believe that either. Certainly not in all cases. But I do believe that there is in many cases a huge genetic component.

I have stated here before that drank to a blackout the frst time I ever drank. I usually also state it during my "birthday speech" which most AAs give at the meeting marking the anniversary of their sobriety. After one such meeting an extremely experienced addiction counselor approached me after the meeting and said that, between 30 years of personal sobriety and well over two decades working fulltime as an addiction counselor, she had listened to thousands of alcoholics tell their story. She said that she could count on her fingers the number of people who had told her that they drank to a blackout their first night drinking.

Two of them, she said, were me and my oldest daughter.

I don't think that's psychology. I think that's DNA.

I freely admit that I have a vested interest in believing that. If I thought the cause of my alcoholism was psychological in nature, I'm sure I would try to find a psychological cure. Having been cured, I could then resume drinking. Believing the alcoholism to be genetic works to keep me sober.

The institutional experience of AA supports the idea of a genetic component, afaik. People who stay sober, fix their lives (or start new ones), perhaps get professional help, and then take a drink or seem to jump right back in where they left off. No one is able to drink "socially" or "in moderation". No relief seems to be granted them regardless of improvements to their lives and/or psyches.

We will know more soon enough as research into DNA continues, of course. But for reasons personal and historical (including the pure hell/havoc wrought as Europeans spread alcohol to native peoples who had no experience with it (they were especially vulnerable for a reason, whether genetic or psychological)), I will continue to believe in the genetic component to addiction/alcoholism. That component is not determinative, perhaps, but in some cases it undoubtedly has a huge predictive value.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 12:56:14 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

It wouldn't bother me if you speculated on my brother's situation at all. There was a lot more than addiction involved, which I have repeated over and over on this thread. There is ALWAYS a psychological component involved, although sometimes it is deeply rooted and many professionals are unable to find it.

Thank you, LL. I did not wish to trample upon your courageous but lamentable story about your brother. It occurred to me from all the violence you described that your brother might have suffered some severe psychopathology that was a greater problem than the addiction. But that is hindsight and I only offer it as an impression.

You may find some interest in the Adverse Childhood Experience Study which I will post below.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/2/2013 1:27:01 PM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 1:08:23 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

We will know more soon enough as research into DNA continues, of course. But for reasons personal and historical (including the pure hell/havoc wrought as Europeans spread alcohol to native peoples who had no experience with it (they were especially vulnerable for a reason, whether genetic or psychological)), I will continue to believe in the genetic component to addiction/alcoholism. That component is not determinative, perhaps, but in some cases it undoubtedly has a huge predictive value.

Truck, my sympathies for your illness and admiration for your recovery. However, I would not put too much stock in DNA research. The indigenous people lost their land and their identities. They were cut lose from their attachments and driven out. That would be enough to cause anyone to drink. There is a new line of DNA research called epigenetics which sorts out how environmental factors turn genes on and off or make them more easily accessible. DNA is the hard drive and the epigenome is the software that runs it. The epigenome is sensitive to the prenatal and post natal environment. Identical twins raised apart may develop markedly different physical and medical characteristics. If you are interested here is a short video that does a good job explaining it. epigenetics

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 1:27:01 PM   
vincentML


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FR

What is the evidence that supports the idea that the issue of addiction rests with the susceptibility of the addict rather than the nature of the substance? Have a look at these
excerpts from the ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCE STUDY

My extracts with SNIPS:

The Origins of Addiction:
Evidence from the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study
“In my beginning is my end.”
T.S. Eliot, “Four Quartets” 1
ABSTRACT:


A population-based analysis of over 17,000 middle-class American adults undergoing comprehensive, biopsychosocial medical evaluation indicates that three common categories of addiction are strongly related in a proportionate manner to several specific categories of adverse experiences during childhood. This, coupled with related information, suggests that the basic cause of addiction is predominantly experience-dependent during childhood and not substance-dependent. This challenge to the usual concept of the cause of addictions has significant implications for medical practice and for treatment programs.

Purpose:
My intent is to challenge the usual concept of addiction with new evidence from a population-based clinical study of over 17,000 adult, middle-class Americans. The usual concept of addiction essentially states that the compulsive use of 'addictive' substances is in some way caused by properties intrinsic to their molecular structure. This view confuses mechanism with cause. Because any accepted explanation of addiction has social, medical, therapeutic, and legal implications, the way one understands addiction is important. Confusing mechanism with basic cause quickly leads one down a path that is misleading. Here, new data is presented to stimulate rethinking the basis of addiction.

SNIP

The ACE Study compares adverse childhood experiences against adult health status, on average a half-century later. The experiences studied were eight categories of adverse childhood experience commonly observed in the Weight Program. The prevalence of each category is stated in parentheses. The categories are:
• recurrent and severe physical abuse (11%)
• recurrent and severe emotional abuse (11%)
• contact sexual abuse (22%)
growing up in a household with:
• an alcoholic or drug-user (25%)
• a member being imprisoned (3%)
• a mentally ill, chronically depressed, or institutionalized member (19%)
• the mother being treated violently (12%)
• both biological parents not being present (22%)


SNIP

Findings:
Our overall findings, presented extensively in the American literature, demonstrate that:
• Adverse childhood experiences are surprisingly common, although typically concealed and unrecognized.
ACEs still have a profound effect 50 years later, although now transformed from psychosocial experience into organic disease, social malfunction, and mental illness.
• Adverse childhood experiences are the main determinant of the health and social well-being of the nation.


SNIP

When we match the prevalence of adult chronic bronchitis and emphysema against ACEs, we again see a strong dose-response relationship. We thereby proceed from the relationship of adverse childhood experiences to a health-risk behavior to their relationship with an organic disease. In other words, Figure 2 illustrates the conversion of emotional stressors into an organic disease, through the intermediary mechanism of an emotionally beneficial (although medically unsafe) behavior.

SNIP

Alcoholism:
One’s own alcoholism is not easily or comfortably acknowledged; therefore, when we asked our Study cohort if they had ever considered themselves to be alcoholic, we felt that Yes answers probably understated the truth, making the effect even stronger than is shown. The relationship of self-acknowledged alcoholism to adverse childhood experiences is depicted in Figure 3. Here we see that more than a 500% increase in adult alcoholism is related in a strong, graded manner to adverse childhood experiences.

SNIP

Injection of illegal drugs:
In the United States, the most commonly injected street drugs are heroin and methamphetamine. Methamphetamine has the interesting property of being closely related to amphetamine, the first anti-depressant introduced by Ciba Pharmaceuticals in 1932. When we studied the relation of injecting illicit drugs to adverse childhood experiences, we again found a similar dose-response pattern; the likelihood of injection of street drugs increases strongly and in a graded fashion as the ACE Score increases. (Figure 4) At the extremes of ACE Score, the figures for injected drug use are even more powerful. For instance, a male child with an ACE Score of 6, when compared to a male child with an ACE Score of 0, has a 46-fold (4,600%) increase in the likelihood of becoming an injection drug user sometime later in life.

Discussion:
Although awareness of the hazards of smoking is now near universal, and has caused a significant reduction in smoking, in recent years the prevalence of smoking has remained largely unchanged. In fact, the association between ACE Score and smoking is stronger in age cohorts born after the Surgeon General’s Report on Smoking. Do current smokers now represent a core of individuals who have a more profound need for the psychoactive benefits of nicotine than those who have given up smoking? Our clinical experience12 and data from the ACE Study suggest this as a likely possibility. Certainly, there is good evidence of the psychoactive benefits of nicotine for moderating anger, anxiety, and hunger.9-12

Alcohol is well accepted as a psychoactive agent. This obvious explanation of alcoholism is now sometimes rejected in favor of a proposed genetic causality. Certainly, alcoholism may be familial, as is language spoken. Our findings support an experiential and psychodynamic explanation for alcoholism, although this may well be moderated by genetic and metabolic differences between races and individuals.

Analysis of our Study data for injected drug use shows a powerful relation to ACEs. Population Attributable Risk* (PAR) analysis shows that 78% of drug injection by women can be attributed to adverse childhood experiences. For men and women combined, the PAR is 67%. Moreover, this PAR has been constant in four age cohorts whose birth dates span a century; this indicates that the relation of adverse childhood experiences to illicit drug use has been constant in spite of major changes in drug availability and in social customs, and in the introduction of drug eradication programs.

American soldiers in Vietnam provided an important although overlooked observation. Many enlisted men in Vietnam regularly used heroin. However, only 5% of those considered addicted were still using it 10 months after their return to the US.15, 16 Treatment did not account for this high recovery rate. Why does not everyone become addicted when they repeatedly inject a substance reputedly as addicting as heroin? If a substance like heroin is not inherently addicting to everyone, but only to a small minority of human users, what determines this selectivity? Is it the substance that is intrinsically addicting, or do life experiences actually determine its compulsive use? Surely its chemical structure remains constant. Our findings indicate that the major factor underlying addiction is adverse childhood experiences that have not healed with time and that are overwhelmingly concealed from awareness by shame, secrecy, and social taboo. The compulsive user appears to be one who, not having other resolutions available, unconsciously seeks relief by using materials with known psychoactive benefit, accepting the known long-term risk of injecting illicit, impure chemicals. The ACE Study provides population-based clinical evidence that unrecognized adverse childhood experiences are a major, if not the major, determinant of who turns to psychoactive materials and becomes ‘addicted’.

Given that the conventional concept of addiction is seriously flawed, and that we have presented strong evidence for an alternative explanation, we propose giving up our old mechanistic explanation of addiction in favor of one that explains it in terms of its psychodynamics: unconscious although understandable decisions being made to seek chemical relief from the ongoing effects of old trauma, often at the cost of accepting future health risk. Expressions like ‘self-destructive behavior’ are misleading and should be dropped because, while describing the acceptance of long-term risk, they overlook the importance of the obvious short-term benefits that drive the use of these substances.

This revised concept of addiction suggests new approaches to primary prevention and treatment. The current public health approach of repeated cautionary warnings has demonstrated its limitations, perhaps because the cautions do not respect the individual when they exhort change without understanding. Adverse childhood experiences are widespread and typically unrecognized. These experiences produce neurodevelopmental and emotional damage, and impair social and school performance. By adolescence, children have a sufficient skill and independence to seek relief through a small number of mechanisms, many of which have been in use since biblical times: drinking alcohol, sexual promiscuity, smoking tobacco, using psychoactive materials, and overeating. These coping devices are manifestly effective for their users, presumably through their ability to modulate the activity of various neurotransmitters. Nicotine, for instance, is a
powerful substitute for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Not surprisingly, the level of some neurotransmitters varies genetically between individuals18.

It is these coping devices, with their short-term emotional benefits, that often pose long-term risks leading to chronic disease; many lead to premature death. This sequence is depicted in the ACE Pyramid (Figure 5). The sequence is slow, often unstoppable, and is generally obscured by time, secrecy, and social taboo. Time does not heal in most of these instances. Because cause and effect usually lie within a family, it is understandably more comforting to demonize a chemical than to look within. We find that addiction overwhelmingly implies prior adverse life experiences.

The sequence in the ACE Pyramid supports psychoanalytic observations that addiction is primarily a consequence of adverse childhood experiences. Moreover, it does so by a population-based study, thereby escaping the potential selection bias of individual case reports. Addiction is not a brain disease, nor is it caused by chemical imbalance or genetics. Addiction is best viewed as an understandable, unconscious, compulsive use of psychoactive materials in response to abnormal prior life experiences, most of which are concealed by shame, secrecy, and social taboo.

SNIP

Our findings show that childhood experiences profoundly and causally shape adult life. ‘Chemical imbalances’, whether genetically modulated or not, are the necessary intermediary mechanisms by which these causal life experiences are translated into manifest effect. It is important to distinguish between cause and mechanism. Uncertainty and confusion between the two will lead to needless polemics and misdirected efforts for preventing or treating addiction, whether on a social or an individual scale. Our findings also make it clear that studying any one category of adverse experience, be it domestic violence, childhood sexual abuse, or other forms of family dysfunction is a conceptual error. None occur in vacuuo; they are part of a complex systems failure: one does not grow up with an alcoholic where everything else in the household is fine.




(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 2:25:23 PM   
truckinslave


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I found the video sufficiently interesting to read a couple articles. Fascinating stuff. But....

[quoteThe indigenous people lost their land and their identities. They were cut lose from their attachments and driven out. That would be enough to cause anyone to drink.]

Except it's not. Whether the Puritans of New England, or the Hebrews of the Old Testament, it's just not. Homelessness is caused by alcoholism much more often than the reverse. Certainly the American Indians were notorious drunkards long before they were dispossessed.

quote:

Identical twins raised apart may develop markedly different physical and medical characteristics.


Well, certainly. They may. If one is raised by Samoans on a superfund site and the other by vegan marathoners on an organic farm in Vermont, physical and medical are to be expected, n'est-ce pas? On the other hand, separated identical twins raised in similar families often turn out to be pretty much identical decades later. I remember one study that included 40-ish male twins raised on different US coasts. They had led virtually identical lives, married physically similar women, had the same number of kids, and were both so identically obese they could wear each others clothes. Both were FD Captains. (That's from memory, Vince; I suspect you have studied the study at some point and remember more about it than I do, but the point remains: They were separated twins who lived identical lives a coast apart). There are many similar examples.

This article on epigenetics by a Dr Nestler blew me away. For those who don't want to wade through the whole thing, for one experiment they stressed male mice. They bred the mice naturally, and also harvested semen from them to artificially inseminate other mice. This to see if the resultant litters showed behavioral differences as compared to mice sired by non-stressed males. The AI was to control for in utero behavioral changes caused epigenetically by females who were depressed because they knew they were carrying a litter sired by an inferior (stressed) male. (!)

If I lost control of that precis you'll just have to read the article. Plenty of other good stuff in there.

Yet, at the end of it, the good doctor says that it's too soon to conclude whether epigenetic inheritance is real. I'm sort of an Occam's Razor guy.... And doesn't the whole thing becomes moot if they discover a combination of genes relegating acetylation and methylation independently of external stimuli?

Fascinating stuff, but every article I read sounded more than slightly speculative.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 2:37:26 PM   
truckinslave


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So, I suppose we can expect effective psychological treatments any day now?

And, yes, I'm being sarcastic... even though AA is exactly a version of that. Cheap. Group. Therapy.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 7:03:31 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

A music video. Fuck, Rich, even for you a new low for inconsequential posting.



Concert footage, to be accurate, Vince. You're not even at the Dick and Jane level, in understanding who an addict is, so you get baby food. (of course, for those who know the players and the story, the tragic irony is inescapable in that bit of music).



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 7:04:48 PM   
LafayetteLady


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My belief is that there is likely a genetic component, but needs also the psychologic component for addiction to occur.

I've know many who likely have the genetic component who never succumb to addiction because the psychological component, however minor didn't co exist.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 7:16:41 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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I don't consider it courageous, it was simply my life. No doubt there was a great deal of sociopathic behavior throughout my brother's life. Some brought on by outside factors but most from his own internal pyschological struggles.

I think it is quite difficult for most of us to really understand feeling such anger and perceived rejection and the effect it can have on a youg person's life. I had a lifetime to study and grasp it, most people don't.

I've dealt with other addicts during my lifetime, but I've found my brother's case to be the worst. Of course that may be because I was closest to it.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 8:32:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

My belief is that there is likely a genetic component, but needs also the psychologic component for addiction to occur.

I've know many who likely have the genetic component who never succumb to addiction because the psychological component, however minor didn't co exist.



Nature, nurture, and choice. All have their role to play. Trying to insist that it must be all of one or another, or worse, just fighting about nature/nurture while denying choice even exists is a dead end game.

Sorry about your brother, LafayetteLady.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 9:34:35 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

So, I suppose we can expect effective psychological treatments any day now?

In just eight weeks of mindfulness practice, we can alter the neural pathways in the brain. For example, the mid-prefrontal cortex and the mid-insular region of the brain become thicker with greater mindfulness practice (Lazar et al. 2005), promoting a sense of well-being and creativity. Other research suggests that mindfulness practice may increase grey-matter density in the hippocampus (the area associated with learning and memory) and decrease grey-matter density in the amygdala, which can help regulate stress and anxiety. ~PsychCentral

In summary, the ancient philosophies of yoga and mindfulness as applied to addiction are supported by recent scientific evidence from well-designed clinical trials and experimental laboratory paradigms. Exemplary research across multiple research programs now demonstrates that mindfulness-based interventions can target clinically relevant measures of psychological, biological, and behavioral functioning, all of which are implicated in the pathophysiology of addiction. ~Complementary Therapies in Medicine

K.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 9:58:00 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Great to hear stories of recovery.

But the glaring difference between the experiences you relate, and those related by LL is that you were dealing with people determined to quit, she with a person determined to use.

Night and day.

Yes truckin, your observation is spot on. However it is important to note that our friends didn't suddenly come to the realisation that they need to clean their act up and knock on our doors seeking assistance out of the blue.

During their periods of addiction, they weren't ostracised, they weren't lectured or hectored, they weren't judged and they certainly weren't given tough love. Even though they tended to move in differing circles to us as their addictions developed and intensified, we kept out links with them, our doors were always open to them during their mini-crises, we let them know that we cared for them, that we understood they were in a dark place and that (quietly) when they wanted to leave that place we would be there for them. IOW, we helped keep alive a flicker of hope.

It is true that no one can help an addict overcome their addiction until the addict themself is ready and committed to recovery. There is an awful lot that can be done to assist an addict in getting to that place where they can take this decision. My feeling is that the spark of hope we helped keep flickering while our friends were in that very dark place was critical in bringing them to the point where they could make the decision to stop using and start recovering.

I'm not saying this will work in all cases. My sense is that, generally, people respond far better to kindness and compassion than tough love. Personally I would be reluctant to employ such a drastic approach unless all other options had been exhausted. If it is true that the circumstances of each addiction and each recovery are individually variable, then it must also be true that each individual will respond differently to the various approaches they encounter as they pass through that dark place.

So, for me, tough love may be valid as an option of last resort. However, to make it the centrepiece of one's approach to addicts and addictions, to adopt tough love as the only approach in all cases must surely be as ill-advised as discarding that option altogether.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/2/2013 10:29:44 PM >


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(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/2/2013 10:58:46 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
I'd sorta like to see a copy of that contract. Sounds like he thinks Karl Marx wrote it.


Yeah, I'm not convinced that primitive societies worked the way he thinks.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/3/2013 4:11:39 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
So, I suppose we can expect effective psychological treatments any day now?

And, yes, I'm being sarcastic... even though AA is exactly a version of that. Cheap. Group. Therapy.


Really, I thought AA was missing the effective component?

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RE: ADDICTS - 12/3/2013 6:09:01 AM   
truckinslave


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Yes, pretty much.

I think of both the genetic and psychological components as sliding scales. The individual could be graded from 1-100 on each scale. A total score of, say, 150 might mean that if you ever get dunk you're probably going to jump into a bottle and disappear for a while, maybe forever. A total score of 100 might mean you're at risk, but if you somehow exercise some moderation at the start of your drinking you might never become a "true, hardcore" alcoholic- however you define that. A total score of 50 might mean that you're pretty much immune- you're just never going to develop what AA calls the physical need and mental obsession that together constitute alcoholism.

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1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: ADDICTS - 12/3/2013 6:40:35 AM   
truckinslave


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Thanks Kirata.
I scanned both articles and tried to apply the thoughts therein to personal experiences. Mindfulness therapy (e.g. yoga) would have to help, it seems to me, if the recently recovering drunk could embrace it. Typically, people trying to quit their drug of choice are angry, confused, impulsive, and unfocused. We do of course recommend prayer and meditation equally to the newly sober but the specific meditation methods of yoga seem to me almost ideal for a jittery pigeon (sponsored person).
Yoga might be an ideal complement to AA. I for years sponsored a man who was both depressed and an alcoholic. At one time he stayed sober for four years, but eventually relapsed and moved a couple hundred miles away. He is not doing well; I still see his son in other contexts and have thus sort of kept up with him. If I ever find myself in a similar situation I may try to take my new pigeon to meetings at night and yoga during the daytime...

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/3/2013 6:50:49 AM   
truckinslave


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Hope.
Hope is the difference between life and suicide to the addict/alcoholic.
Hope is the first thing we receive walking into our first AA/NA meeting. We meet people- happy, clean, successful people- who have overcome our circumstances and worse. We both hear and think: "If they can do it, so can I". Hope is, I think, the bedrock underpinning of AA.
Anything that keeps hope alive in a drunk is a good thing.

Compassion is a wonderful thing as well, until/unless it enables the drunk to keep drinking. To me, it's usually counterproductive to shield a drunk from the natural consequences of his actions unless one of those consequences is immediate death or GBI.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/3/2013 6:56:21 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Really, I thought AA was missing the effective component?


I hope none of my posts gave you that idea. Certainly it was effective for me, over time (rehab twice, in and out of AA for four years before I made it sober for a full year).
I think AA has worked the best for the most; but I have never met an AA who will tell you that there is a wrong way to get sober. If it works, it works. If not, try AA. If it helps (church, hard physical exercise, yoga, whatever), it helps... but keep going to meetings.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 160
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