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RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 6:59:46 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

however that doesn't preclude the ability to change those pathways or even simply deny them. i couldn't give a cite but I'm sure that current research suggests willpower is, like muscle, capable of being exercised and strengthened.

I suspect muscle changes occur more quickly than neural changes, Wendel, although we can speculate (or I will) that recovery in both cases depends upon the extent of the "hurt." That is what Dr Mate' was saying, I believe. Some can recover from their own will power, others need extensive help, and some are beyond savaging.

Your comments on paedophilia are gutsy and deserve a separate thread but I believe that topic is not allowed here. Personally, I think none of us chooses our fantasies and it is not quite so easy for many to "clean out the closet." There are many behavioral addictions which have a stranglehold as strong as substance abuse but may not be so harmful to others. Obviously, paedophilia is quite harmful beyond the obsessed individual.

(in reply to Wendel27)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 8:04:01 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
As for the Hebrews, I was thinking more along the lines of enslavement in Egypt.


As far as we can tell that never actually happened.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 10:38:15 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Really, I thought AA was missing the effective component?


I hope none of my posts gave you that idea. Certainly it was effective for me, over time (rehab twice, in and out of AA for four years before I made it sober for a full year).


Have you ever looked into statistics regarding AA's effectiveness?

Think about it for a second, the program was concocted from the premise of religious propaganda without knowledge of any of the applicable sciences. I'm not saying that the support isn't useful. I'd expect the social effect of being ingrouped into a community that's very mindful of your sobriety to do something.

But when it comes to the treatment program it's essentially religious based woo.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 11:13:47 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I'm an addict, and I always will be. Whether that feature was installed by my DNA, by Mom leaving me in the crib too much, the chaos and trauma of my early life, or is something I downloaded myself when I started using drugs in grade school, is irrelevant. I'm the one who has to deal with it every day. I've stayed completely straight for years at a time, and frankly, sobriety is overrated.

I wish you the continued grit to stay the course, Rich.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 11:29:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Seen through this filter, recovery the process of replacing unhealthy obsessions with healthier ones. For some it's fairly straightforward, for others it's fiendishly difficult. There's no reason to get hung up on the 'whys' (or rather, the 'whys' are a completely different discussion), the 'whys' don't matter as long as you do it. The 'how' is the bit each person has to negotiate and that's where the focus should be.

Mate' suggested that the treatment of addicts in East Vancouver was a disastrous failure because the 'whys' were neglected by models focused predominantly on recovery behavior and will power. The 'whys' don't matter as long as you do it. Agreed. But the 'whys' matter for those who fail. Not because it gives them an excuse or the opportunity for denial or the chance to blame others. He wasn't talking to the addicts. He was talking to the care providers and the officials who allocated funds for care providers in Canada.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 11:49:41 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

For the record, I don't think you understand the application of tough love at all and what you believe you saw of it was nonsense. Had yoy tried your "hippie love, approach on my brother within a week, you would have been evicted from your home, had all your belongs stolen and be lucky if he hadn't killed you.

Knowing which approach to use on an individual is very important. I'm talking serious hardcore addiction while what you have described sounds like "addiction lite." I'm sure in your mind you believe that your approach would have had my brother clean, sober and playing with his grandchildren now. I'm also sure that your single mindedness can be be extremely dangerous.

The anger I perceive in your words is certainly justified, LL. An awful experience for you and your mother and a terrible disruption of a carefree childhood. I hope you find a way to get free of the anger as much as possible. Family violence at the hands of addicts is all too common.

In all fairness, I don't believe Tweakabell was addressing such extreme circumstances. I suspect she would have put family safety first. I think I know her well enough to believe that.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 11:51:38 AM   
truckinslave


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Status: offline 		I don't know of anything anyone would consider reliable "statistics". The general conversation/belief, based on some pretty nebulous "survey" AA conducted years ago is that half of everyone who ever attends an AA meeting will st some point achieve a year sober, and half of those will make it to five years sober. After that.... ???? My personal experience is that if you make it five years sobriety is both a habit and a well-supported lifestyle (your friends are sober types, your hobbies do not involve people who drink, etc).

I have to disagree a little about AA and religion. My experience is that we aggressively make a distinction between the religious and the spiritual. All religions, agnostics, and atheists are all welcome, and all are told they can stay sober. Agnostics and atheists are told they need to find a higher power than themselves (subordination of self/ego is crucial), and that the AA group makes a fine higher power if that's what they chose. I knew a man, since deceased, who said he was so fucked up when he came to AA that, desperate to follow instructions and "find" a higher power, he put a rock in his pocket, made it his higher power, and prayed to it for over a year.

Everyone told him, "That's great, don't drink, and keep coming to meetings".

He died twenty-plus years sober.

Religion/church/doctrine are not required (even though, yes, basically the entire program can be found in 2nd Corinthians lol).

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 1:26:02 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I knew a man, since deceased, who said he was so fucked up when he came to AA that, desperate to follow instructions and "find" a higher power, he put a rock in his pocket, made it his higher power, and prayed to it for over a year.

Everyone told him, "That's great, don't drink, and keep coming to meetings".

He died twenty-plus years sober.

This. Many of the things we accept as limitations on our free will are due to our ignorance, our lack of knowledge of skillful means. We don't know how to communicate our will to the mind, so we talk to ourselves instead. A rational objective view would dismiss your gentleman's solution as a regression to magical thinking. But the mind functions at a symbolic and associational level. It is not the intellect. It cannot have a chat with you.

There are two kinds of effective belief. We tend to consider only the actively restrictive form: conviction. There is also a passive permissive form of effective belief which requires only a willingness to suspend disbelief.

The stone, itself, wasn't a higher power of course, and it didn't become one. But that's irrelevant. All that matters is that it be accepted as the symbol of a higher power. At a symbolic level of mind, there is no distinction. Symbols govern our world. They are the tools of our free will. To dismiss the gentleman's stone as a "talisman" and diagnose his thinking as magical and regressive overlooks a detail. It was also a use of skillful means.

K.

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 4:53:14 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
I knew a man, since deceased, who said he was so fucked up when he came to AA that, desperate to follow instructions and "find" a higher power, he put a rock in his pocket, made it his higher power, and prayed to it for over a year.

Everyone told him, "That's great, don't drink, and keep coming to meetings".

He died twenty-plus years sober.


Looking at this kind of thing you do get why I'd characterize the program as essentially religious based woo and question it's effectiveness right?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 9:13:09 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I do. AA insists, though, on what I think is a valid distinction between "spiritual" and religious. If you haven't actually been to meetings, though...

Hell, it took my mother years to get any sort of understanding of AA- and not because of reluctance on my part to answer her questions.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: ADDICTS - 12/4/2013 10:15:21 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

For the record, I don't think you understand the application of tough love at all and what you believe you saw of it was nonsense. Had yoy tried your "hippie love, approach on my brother within a week, you would have been evicted from your home, had all your belongs stolen and be lucky if he hadn't killed you.

Knowing which approach to use on an individual is very important. I'm talking serious hardcore addiction while what you have described sounds like "addiction lite." I'm sure in your mind you believe that your approach would have had my brother clean, sober and playing with his grandchildren now. I'm also sure that your single mindedness can be be extremely dangerous.

Everyone needs hope and love, even those that deny they need it. Also everyone deserves hope and love regardless of whether their actions make them undeserving.

Your hapy ending stories of those you claim to have cured of addiction (and to be sure ther is no cure),negates completely the destruction an addict leaves in their wake.

It's sad that you felt it necessary to post the above.

Let me make it crystal clear - I have made no claims to cure anyone of anything. I have said that I was part of a group of friends who supported some other friends during their withdrawals from opiate addictions. It happened in my home. The only reason for that is I happen to have a spare bedroom. Any results that arose from these cases are down to the friends we tried to support, not us. In the overall picture our roles were very much secondary.

I have no idea what might or might not have worked in your brothers case and make no direct comment on it. I note that you have already described your brother as an "extreme" case. I do have a concern about basing one's entire approach to any issue on a single "extreme" case. That doesn't strike as a sensible or prudent manner to approach any issue. You were at the pointy end of your brothers behaviour. While I sympathise with your plight I don't see that as a reason to adopt the approach that you adopted (and which failed to deliver a successful outcome) in all other cases. Particularly as I know another approach delivered a more desirable outcome in the cases I am familiar with, and even more so because the behaviour of your brother is far from representative of addicts in general.

I hope that we can agree that addiction takes many forms, and that addicts, like everyone else, behave in a multitude of diverse ways. You proposed one method of dealing with the issues of addiction based on your experiences with your brother. I have detailed another approach which my friends and I adopted. That is not a claim that I am right and you are wrong or anything of the sort.

Nor have I made any attempt to generalise from my experiences. The point that I do wish to establish is different approaches and methods work with different people. To approach all issues of addiction on the basis of experiences with one of a tiny minority of "extreme" "hardcore" addicts is quite simply foolish and guaranteed to fail in the vast majority of cases.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/4/2013 10:50:27 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 4:18:55 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
Yes, I do. AA insists, though, on what I think is a valid distinction between "spiritual" and religious.


Long story short AA was founded by a guy who found Jesus and bought into the propaganda that it makes you better and came up with a program using that as a premise without testing to see if that premise was at all valid.

Whether AA requires organized or just disorganized religion doesn't effect whether the superstition below is valid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
subordination of self/ego is crucial


Thing is there are secular AA spinoffs which don't require higher powers or pet rocks (debunking the claim that such is crucial) and comparing the secular and religious versions has shown that the religious woo can be actively harmful http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/03/21/an-increasing-number-of-atheist-and-agnostic-alcoholics-anonymous-groups-are-altering-the-twelve-steps/

(in reply to truckinslave)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 4:57:24 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Had you tried your "hippie love" approach on my brother within a week, you would have been evicted from your home, had all your belongs stolen and be lucky if he hadn't killed you.

Knowing which approach to use on an individual is very important. I'm talking serious hardcore addiction while what you have described sounds like "addiction lite."


My friend was a heroin addict for 28 years, ODd many times (the last time put him into a coma) and he credits yoga with enabling him to quit - 13 years ago. I'm sure timing played a factor, as well as not returning to his drug-infested neighborhood and instead moving to the Kripalu Center for Yoga & Health, where he found love and acceptance.

I was with him one time when a cop stopped him and looked up his police record. I don't think the officer had ever before seen a record that long. All the offenses were to due to his habit.

I doubt I will ever meet an addict more hard core than he was.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 5:38:53 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I had him arrested when I knew he had drugs in the house, and I don't regret it a minute.

Your suggestion puts every person in that addicts life in potential danger. I know because I've lived it. Tough love is EXACTLY how addicts need to be handled. Nothing else gets through.


Although I have mixed feeling about your tough love statement, I have no regrets for calling the cops on my drunk former downstairs neighbor. They'd been here the week before too in response to someone else calling about her, and I was hoping the repeat business would get her into the system. She did end up under observation for a week, with Intensive Outpatient treatment at the end, but continued to drink and eventually my neighbor threw her out.

When the cops were trying to convince her to get dressed and come with them, she told me she hated me. I replied that I didn't care - the important thing to me was that she get help.

Her BAC level was 0.42, she had another liter of vodka that she hadn't tapped into, and she wasn't done for the night.

http://www.intheknowzone.com/substance-abuse-topics/binge-drinking/blood-alcohol-concentration.html

10. BAC = .30-.50 = Symptoms are complete unconsciousness, depressed or absent reflexes, subnormal body temperature, incontinence, and impairment of circulation and respiration.

Death may occur at .37% or higher. BACs of .45% and higher are fatal to nearly all individuals.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 6:01:28 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Long story short AA was founded by a guy who found Jesus and bought into the propaganda that it makes you better and came up with a program using that as a premise without testing to see if that premise was at all valid.


Regardless of whatever contempt you may feel for religion, Christianity, and Jesus, and regardless also of whatever disappointment you may find in the lack of premise-testing you think Dr Bob and/or Bill W failed to do, the program they started has spread around he world and is credited with helping millions of alcoholics recover from various and sundry awful circumstances to healthy and well-adjusted lives. It's a free country; you can piss on that record as you wish.

quote:

Thing is there are secular AA spinoffs which don't require higher powers or pet rocks (debunking the claim that such is crucial) and comparing the secular and religious versions has shown that the religious woo can be actively harmfu


I am already herein on record as saying that there is, for myself and every AA I know, no wrong way to get sober. If such an approach works for them, wonderful. If not, we'll keep the light on and the meeting open....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 6:48:07 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Addicts lie. They lie to themselves constantly, never mind the lies they will tell anyone (everyone) else. This part of the consciouness that lies in your ear is what would make the metaphor of a demon so useful to the conversation, but someone of course then takes it literally, and the train derails into the stupid weeds of, "you think we should call in an exorcist." Let's stick with addicts lying to themselves then.

Denial doesn't end, until the addict knows not to believe the lies he tells himself. Their friends and loved ones can nudge them in that direction. We can plant seeds we hope will germinate and resonate in their minds. They have to get there themselves.


When I quit drinking in the 90s, I found Rational Recovery's Beast concept useful:

The Structural Model of Addiction

...In effect, you have two separate brains within your head — a human brain, which supports consciousness, and an animal/beast brain which supports life itself. The beast brain generates survival appetites which drive the rest of the body toward what it demands, such as oxygen, food, sex, and fluids.

These survival needs are all associated with physical pleasure, i.e., the better something feels, the more necessary it seems for survival. Alcohol and other drugs feel better than anything else, including food, sex, even breathing. Your survival drive has become a death drive in search of physical pleasure.

Your survival appetite is aimed at the wrong stuff, to be sure, but addiction is more a reflection of health than of a mysterious disease. The desire for pleasure fades among sick or diseased people, further suggesting that addiction is a reflection of health rather than a disease process. In RR, some call the human midbrain "the party center," because of the bond between pleasure and addiction. Of course, it is often quite stupid (self-defeating) to act on healthy desires or impulses, as in substance addictions.

We call your desire for the pleasure of alcohol and other drugs the Beast®. The Beast of Booze, or the Beast of Buzz, is ruthless in getting what it wants because it is about survival. It cannot speak, it cannot see, it has no arms or legs, and it has no intelligence of its own.

The Beast is utterlly powerless to act on its own. Instead, it uses your thoughts and intelligence, sees through your eyes, creates strong feelings, and persuades you to use your hands, arms, and legs in order to obtain its favorite substance. It must appeal to you to get alcohol or drugs into your bloodstream.

Although your beast brain has no language ability, it uses your language and thinking centers to get what it wants. It is an animal mentality that can talk in your head. For example, if you wisely decide that drinking is bad for you, and that you will stop, you will soon hear that old, familiar voice telling you why you should continue drinking. You may even imagine a picture of what you want to drink. That is your Addictive Voice, the sole cause of addiction, expressing the Beast's demand for alcohol/drugs. Addictive Voice is to Beast as bark is to dog.

There are two parties to your addiction - you and your Beast, “I” and “it.“ You can easily recognize your Addictive Voice using the following definition:

Any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or drugs -- ever.

AVRT [Addictive Voice Recognition Technique] allows you to become acutely aware of Beast activity and dissociate from it so it can no longer instigate action. Then you may confidently decide you’ll never drink again, and feel the grand relief of knowing your addiciton is finally over.

To follow, are 28 flash cards called "Bullets for my Beast." They are cues for action, directing you to complete recovery, while online. If you have been drinking or using today, sign off and return here during a day when you have been abstinent. Make a safe plan for detox. You are responsible to protect yourself against acute withdrawal symptoms. If you are in doubt, consult with your physician.


Continue to: Bullets For My Beast

Read more: http://www.rational.org/index.php?id=59

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: ADDICTS - 12/5/2013 11:14:00 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

There are two parties to your addiction - you and your Beast, “I” and “it.“ You can easily recognize your Addictive Voice using the following definition:

Any thinking, imagery, or feeling that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or drugs -- ever.





That's an interesting analogy, Kalikshama, but the definition requires adherence to the "total abstinence is the only real recovery," model. I know that approach works for some, reinforced by the "if you ever take another (whatever it may be) you will die," philosophy, but I also know that insisting there is not and cannot ever be a middle way, leaves a lot of people on the wrong side of regaining control of their lives.

I think, to be successful on the path of detente with the demons, you have to let the "I" mind in on the fun, instead of giving it all to the "Beast." We ran out to the Mexican place for dinner, and if the beast thought a salty tequila slushy was the only way to go, he never got a chance to speak up, because I had already decided I was going to have one. The beast likes carne asada, too, so by the time the waiter asked if I wanted another drink, he'd already gotten some of what he was after, and stayed silent.

After a time away, limits, and rituals that go with those limits, are how I approached it. In the appropriate set and setting, I can have a cider whenever the hell I feel like I want one. One. They taste good, and I enjoy the simple effect. If I have been working outside on a hot summer day, two.

Kirata has touched on the importance of symbolism, and two brings the symbolic ritual of either hanging up my car keys or deliberately handing them to the wife. The ritual continues when I chase the second drink with water. It's all ingrained now, the ritual became the habit, and being an addictive sort, I get very stuck in my habits. Drink the water, let my body catch up with what it has been given, and decisions about more can be reflective, rather than reflex.

I've had long stretches of pure sobriety, and I don't care for it. I want to kick back in the recliner, and let the tension out of my neck with a cold beverage. I want to let my mind drift a little. I want to sleep for a solid 6 hours, and not remember any dreams. Of course, I've also been fucked up wreckage, and didn't care for that either. What I liked least of all was not being able to stop, and the withdrawal when I finally did, and the falling down and having to go through it all over again.

The beast and I have some common ground. We both like to get high, and we both like heated homes. There can be peace between us.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: ADDICTS - 12/6/2013 7:53:20 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

That's an interesting analogy, Kalikshama, but the definition requires adherence to the "total abstinence is the only real recovery," model. I know that approach works for some, reinforced by the "if you ever take another (whatever it may be) you will die," philosophy, but I also know that insisting there is not and cannot ever be a middle way, leaves a lot of people on the wrong side of regaining control of their lives.


Back in the 90s, RR was talking about being able to drink moderately, which I found appealing.

I have changed my relationship with alcohol. I no longer medicate with alcohol, and can drink moderately. I know what cravings are, and I don't have them for booze anymore. I might want a glass of wine with dinner, and I might not. All summer long, I abstained from drinking at concerts, but before the last concert in October, I felt like getting tipsy, so I did.

I'm sure there are many people who should never drink again. I abstained for a number of years before I started drinking socially again, and it was a very different experience than when I was using it to medicate.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: ADDICTS - 12/6/2013 7:37:09 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I have changed my relationship with alcohol.



I think that really is a key. Something that always strikes me about those who have been working AA for the decades since they dried out, is that the addiction is still as much a part of their lives as it was when they were drinking.

In my years, drugs were at the center of my outlook. Getting them, stashing them, having the paraphenalia to use them. I didn't have a dogtag on my keychain so they could be returned to me if lost - it was so I always had something to cut lines with. The first problem to address when packing for a flight, was where to hide the pipe. Was a class schedule or a job going to include opportunities to smoke out?

In the time that has passed, intoxicants , and the certain knowledge of what I can do to myself with them, faded from the front of my mind. That doesn't mean I allow myself to forget my nature. I have to stay aware of what I'm doing, but it's not much different than the awareness that MSG is a migraine trigger, and checking if some food on a shelf is loaded with it. And like MSG, which is in so many of the foods I like, knowing I can get away with a little bit, if I want to, and don't push my luck.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: ADDICTS - 12/7/2013 2:58:50 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Something that always strikes me about those who have been working AA for the decades since they dried out, is that the addiction is still as much a part of their lives as it was when they were drinking.


Well, there are those for whom helping others recover becomes a decades-long commitment. That's not an imposition; that's volunteerism, something that's normally admired. I'm not quite so altruistic. My attendance at meetings had dropped off to a couple per month before I started trucking. Now I usually go on my AA birthday, or perhaps after the death of an AA I was close to. Otherwise, except in specific situations (e.g. this thread, or when my friend from NC calls), I think about brussel sprouts more often than booze.

My addiction really isn't a part of my life.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 200
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