quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

- why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?

There is so much more to it than a wack on the noggin or a good thrashing though there are times when a kid really needs that sort of thing. I worked with kids through out the 80's and 90's and there are way too many parents with young school age kids (4 and up) who are out of control to some degree or another and/or have a total lack of respect. There is shit I've seen kids do or say and get away with that would have got most of us in some kind of dutch or double dutch back in the day when I was that age.

I believe that some kids, not all, need a good paddling now and then. For the ones who do need it you're not doing them any favors if you don't. There are so many other reasons too many kids are fucked up in the head, lack of discipline is only a small part of it. There are too many broken families, too many single parents, and too many households where both parents work full time. These situations leave kids without the parents around to get much of an idea what really goes on when they're not home or what kind of problems they might have. Kids need the attention of their parents especially/usually when they're old enough to be home alone without a baby sitter.

Then there are all the video games, computers, devices and too much shit on TV that can tend to make parenting more impersonal. Add to that those kids who are bullied and you know how that can affect them negatively.

Then there all these freakin drugs like Ritalin for the over active types. Many of those types need a parent around to direct their energy into something more productive, not turn them into lethargic couch potatoes.

It's not all that simple. Simple minded, one sided child psychology isn't going to work. Parents are going to have to pay attention to their kids more to give them what ever it might be that's best. Good parenting is the answer. I'm not sure how to achieve this nationwide but each kid is different and some needs are very specific.

Simple minded gun control won't stop school shootings either. It works fine in the UK and other places. It might work fine down under, time will tell but I'll guarantee it won't go over well in the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So here we have it.

1)Guns dont kill people, people kill people, guns just make it easier
2) An event 90 years ago killed more children so lets ignore the current problem
3) A paddling isnt child abuse....... Try telling a beaten child that
4) Its wrong to use English in its correct context, unless youre a Republican.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

- why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?

There is so much more to it than a wack on the noggin or a good thrashing though there are times when a kid really needs that sort of thing. I worked with kids through out the 80's and 90's and there are way too many parents with young school age kids (4 and up) who are out of control to some degree or another and/or have a total lack of respect. There is shit I've seen kids do or say and get away with that would have got most of us in some kind of dutch or double dutch back in the day when I was that age.

I believe that some kids, not all, need a good paddling now and then. For the ones who do need it you're not doing them any favors if you don't. There are so many other reasons too many kids are fucked up in the head, lack of discipline is only a small part of it. There are too many broken families, too many single parents, and too many households where both parents work full time. These situations leave kids without the parents around to get much of an idea what really goes on when they're not home or what kind of problems they might have. Kids need the attention of their parents especially/usually when they're old enough to be home alone without a baby sitter.

Then there are all the video games, computers, devices and too much shit on TV that can tend to make parenting more impersonal. Add to that those kids who are bullied and you know how that can affect them negatively.

Then there all these freakin drugs like Ritalin for the over active types. Many of those types need a parent around to direct their energy into something more productive, not turn them into lethargic couch potatoes.

It's not all that simple. Simple minded, one sided child psychology isn't going to work. Parents are going to have to pay attention to their kids more to give them what ever it might be that's best. Good parenting is the answer. I'm not sure how to achieve this nationwide but each kid is different and some needs are very specific.

Simple minded gun control won't stop school shootings either. It works fine in the UK and other places. It might work fine down under, time will tell but I'll guarantee it won't go over well in the US.

I never said spanking alone would do the job.
The key is better parenting one component of which is discipline.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

That's got to be the clumsiest lie I've seen in a while, and I just got through with grade appeals and have seen some whoppers.

You made the blanket equivalency between the whole range of possibilities covered by the word 'discipline, and 'a return to the days of child abuse'. There in no other interpretation that can be made by anyone who isn't barking at the moon insane, or else trivializing the victims of actual child abuse.
You don't own the dictionary, you don't get to pass off your irrational ideas as monolithic definitions that are binding on the world.

Discipline in raising a child consists of saying 'No', restricting access to non-essential items like TV, adding extra chores, limiting freedom to leave one's room, writing something that reflects on the undesirable behavior, and so on.
Abuse is abuse. Not knowing that there is a difference is a very disturbing thought.

You are so far wrong here, that no amount of spin, denial, lying, or name calling, is going to dig you out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So here we have it.

1)Guns dont kill people, people kill people, guns just make it easier
2) An event 90 years ago killed more children so lets ignore the current problem
3) A paddling isnt child abuse....... Try telling a beaten child that
4) Its wrong to use English in its correct context, unless youre a Republican.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

- why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?

There is so much more to it than a wack on the noggin or a good thrashing though there are times when a kid really needs that sort of thing. I worked with kids through out the 80's and 90's and there are way too many parents with young school age kids (4 and up) who are out of control to some degree or another and/or have a total lack of respect. There is shit I've seen kids do or say and get away with that would have got most of us in some kind of dutch or double dutch back in the day when I was that age.

I believe that some kids, not all, need a good paddling now and then. For the ones who do need it you're not doing them any favors if you don't. There are so many other reasons too many kids are fucked up in the head, lack of discipline is only a small part of it. There are too many broken families, too many single parents, and too many households where both parents work full time. These situations leave kids without the parents around to get much of an idea what really goes on when they're not home or what kind of problems they might have. Kids need the attention of their parents especially/usually when they're old enough to be home alone without a baby sitter.

Then there are all the video games, computers, devices and too much shit on TV that can tend to make parenting more impersonal. Add to that those kids who are bullied and you know how that can affect them negatively.

Then there all these freakin drugs like Ritalin for the over active types. Many of those types need a parent around to direct their energy into something more productive, not turn them into lethargic couch potatoes.

It's not all that simple. Simple minded, one sided child psychology isn't going to work. Parents are going to have to pay attention to their kids more to give them what ever it might be that's best. Good parenting is the answer. I'm not sure how to achieve this nationwide but each kid is different and some needs are very specific.

Simple minded gun control won't stop school shootings either. It works fine in the UK and other places. It might work fine down under, time will tell but I'll guarantee it won't go over well in the US.

I never said spanking alone would do the job.
The key is better parenting one component of which is discipline.

I never said you did. I was just expanding on what Peon said and I basically did say "The key is better parenting one component of which is discipline." I'm not sure how we get to that but theoretically if I wave a magic wand and every adult with kids become better parents, it would go a long way toward curbing if not eliminate this school shooting trend. I'm sure you and I can agree that what ever the flavor of simplistic gun control of the day is, it's a stupid way to try and solve the problem. Way back in the day when Andy of Mayberry was still in its first run on TV and most homes had 2 parents including one who stayed at home, we weren't having this problem but we still had a crap load of guns including semi automatics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

For the record - the largest body count at a school wasn't done by guns.

Look it up.

For the record....... You have picked the one rare event of a bombing, which took place some 90 years ago, yet are happy to overlook the many dozens of school shootings in the last 20 years alone. I cant fathom out why anyone would think posting such bollocks actually proves any point.

Ah yes, 90 years ago - when kids were much too well-disciplined to go around shooting up their classmates at school.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

- why would disciplining him do anything? Or ever in his life have done anything? I mean, do you honestly believe that if a kid were to be thwacked more frequently, say, that would somehow halt the developing of the kind of murderous hatred in a kid that is required to undertake a mass-shooting spree? How would that work, exactly? What are the psychological mechanisms you envisage being involved?

There is so much more to it than a wack on the noggin or a good thrashing though there are times when a kid really needs that sort of thing. I worked with kids through out the 80's and 90's and there are way too many parents with young school age kids (4 and up) who are out of control to some degree or another and/or have a total lack of respect. There is shit I've seen kids do or say and get away with that would have got most of us in some kind of dutch or double dutch back in the day when I was that age.

I believe that some kids, not all, need a good paddling now and then. For the ones who do need it you're not doing them any favors if you don't. There are so many other reasons too many kids are fucked up in the head, lack of discipline is only a small part of it. There are too many broken families, too many single parents, and too many households where both parents work full time. These situations leave kids without the parents around to get much of an idea what really goes on when they're not home or what kind of problems they might have. Kids need the attention of their parents especially/usually when they're old enough to be home alone without a baby sitter.

Then there are all the video games, computers, devices and too much shit on TV that can tend to make parenting more impersonal. Add to that those kids who are bullied and you know how that can affect them negatively.

Then there all these freakin drugs like Ritalin for the over active types. Many of those types need a parent around to direct their energy into something more productive, not turn them into lethargic couch potatoes.

It's not all that simple. Simple minded, one sided child psychology isn't going to work. Parents are going to have to pay attention to their kids more to give them what ever it might be that's best. Good parenting is the answer. I'm not sure how to achieve this nationwide but each kid is different and some needs are very specific.

Simple minded gun control won't stop school shootings either. It works fine in the UK and other places. It might work fine down under, time will tell but I'll guarantee it won't go over well in the US.

I never said spanking alone would do the job.
The key is better parenting one component of which is discipline.

I never said you did. I was just expanding on what Peon said and I basically did say "The key is better parenting one component of which is discipline." I'm not sure how we get to that but theoretically if I wave a magic wand and every adult with kids become better parents, it would go a long way toward curbing if not eliminate this school shooting trend. I'm sure you and I can agree that what ever the flavor of simplistic gun control of the day is, it's a stupid way to try and solve the problem. Way back in the day when Andy of Mayberry was still in its first run on TV and most homes had 2 parents including one who stayed at home, we weren't having this problem but we still had a crap load of guns including semi automatics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


the fact is this criminalizing of discipline has been going on for DECADES, and if we hit the RESET button on it tommarrow it would take decades to UNDO itself

it started with, paddling not being allowed in schools, then at home, then telling kids there is NO reward or punishment in the "afterlife" for their actions on earth...

as I said, I am not a religious person, but I DO see the VALUE of instilling the FEAR OF GOD in children when they are small!

but heyy you people keep on pretending that something that's been as common as dirt for centuries SUDEDENLY became the PROBLEM...

my dad is a mechanic and he told me, if your car isn't running right, look at the LAST THING that's been changed and that's PROBABLY the problem

what's changed? guns? availability of guns? NOOOO how kids are Raised? UMM YEAHHHH!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

You've gone just as far in the other direction. There is something seriously wrong when people think that 'discipline' and 'beating the crap out of a child' are synonymous.

No one has criminalized teaching kids right from wrong, or from using negative consequences like those I listed above.

What has been criminalized is leaving kids with broken arms, concussions, and hemorrhaging.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

.
the fact is this criminalizing of discipline has been going on for DECADES, and if we hit the RESET button on it tommarrow it would take decades to UNDO itself

it started with, paddling not being allowed in schools, then at home, then telling kids there is NO reward or punishment in the "afterlife" for their actions on earth...

as I said, I am not a religious person, but I DO see the VALUE of instilling the FEAR OF GOD in children when they are small!

but heyy you people keep on pretending that something that's been as common as dirt for centuries SUDEDENLY became the PROBLEM...

my dad is a mechanic and he told me, if your car isn't running right, look at the LAST THING that's been changed and that's PROBABLY the problem

what's changed? guns? availability of guns? NOOOO how kids are Raised? UMM YEAHHHH!!!

quote:

to ignore the access of guns as being a major issue, along with the other "issues" you might as well piss up some rope, in a hurricane.
Sad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

How many private schools have been the victim of gun violence? If none or so few as to be statistically zero then why are they safe without resource officers and "too much access to military style weapons".

Answer: Family participation in the schools (since they spend big bucks to put their children there) and discipline in the schools including paddling and extra homework and even stay after school and clean the gym showers kind of punishment. Families sacrifice to put children in private schools so they will learn and be safe and be disciplined.

So, the way to fix public schools so they don't get shot up in a generation is to run them like private schools, well funded and free to discipline the children and free to teach them and free to fire bad teachers.


Arturas.

quote:

There are a number of cases in some parts of the country where people have been child abuse for giving their kid a pop in public when they were acting up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

There are a number of cases in some parts of the country where people have been child abuse for giving their kid a pop in public when they were acting up.

This so true. Now I have to hide to spank my child.

My wonderful Grandmother would have been locked up today for asking me to cut a "switch" from the "switch bush" and bring it to her so she can whip my little boy legs in shorts leaving a couple of red marks on my legs that stung like bee stings or worse but I love her for it because she did it to keep me in line and discipline never hurts children it instead makes them better and stronger and wiser and better in control of their lives and their children in turn and the cycle once started again will continue and in a single generation the wrong can be righted again.

Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

There are a number of cases in some parts of the country where people have been child abuse for giving their kid a pop in public when they were acting up.

This so true. Now I have to hide to spank my child.

My wonderful Grandmother would have been locked up today for asking me to cut a "switch" from the "switch bush" and bring it to her so she can whip my little boy legs in shorts leaving a couple of red marks on my legs that stung like bee stings or worse but I love her for it because she did it to keep me in line and discipline never hurts children it instead makes them better and stronger and wiser and better in control of their lives and their children in turn and the cycle once started again will continue and in a single generation the wrong can be righted again.

Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

You've gone just as far in the other direction. There is something seriously wrong when people think that 'discipline' and 'beating the crap out of a child' are synonymous.

No one has criminalized teaching kids right from wrong, or from using negative consequences like those I listed above.

What has been criminalized is leaving kids with broken arms, concussions, and hemorrhaging.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


the fact is this criminalizing of discipline has been going on for DECADES, and if we hit the RESET button on it tommarrow it would take decades to UNDO itself

it started with, paddling not being allowed in schools, then at home, then telling kids there is NO reward or punishment in the "afterlife" for their actions on earth...

as I said, I am not a religious person, but I DO see the VALUE of instilling the FEAR OF GOD in children when they are small!

but heyy you people keep on pretending that something that's been as common as dirt for centuries SUDEDENLY became the PROBLEM...

my dad is a mechanic and he told me, if your car isn't running right, look at the LAST THING that's been changed and that's PROBABLY the problem

what's changed? guns? availability of guns? NOOOO how kids are Raised? UMM YEAHHHH!!!