RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants.

RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (Full Version)

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RedMagic1 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 8:24:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 However, I am getting really tired having to press 1 for English, dealing with cashiers at stores that do not have a working knowledge of the English language, and outsourcing call centers to other countries is really pissing me off to no end. This afternoon I had to deal with a Hispanic cashier who could barely speak English, let alone understand it, who so screwed up the checkout that I have to go back to the store Thursday to get it straightened out. I don't mean this as harshly as it might sound, especially on Christmas Day, but in a very real sense, your concerns are irrelevant. In 20 to 40 years, the people who think like this will be dead, both dead and buried, and dead as a major political force. The new normal will be to speak at least one and a half languages in order to do basic things like shopping, and every ambitious young person will need to be bilingual, or multilingual, in order to have a chance at a high-end job. I doubt this post made you smile, but I wish you happy holidays anyway.

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 8:24:28 PM)
In other words, the same point I made on the first page. quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren He is being sardonic, the only true native languages in the US are things like Apache and Cherokee, and even they were immigrants......the point being that the US is nation of immigrants, and English is not the 'native' language per se, though it became the dominant one.

tj444 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 9:08:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 However, I am getting really tired having to press 1 for English, dealing with cashiers at stores that do not have a working knowledge of the English language, and outsourcing call centers to other countries is really pissing me off to no end. This afternoon I had to deal with a Hispanic cashier who could barely speak English, let alone understand it, who so screwed up the checkout that I have to go back to the store Thursday to get it straightened out. I don't mean this as harshly as it might sound, especially on Christmas Day, but in a very real sense, your concerns are irrelevant. In 20 to 40 years, the people who think like this will be dead, both dead and buried, and dead as a major political force. The new normal will be to speak at least one and a half languages in order to do basic things like shopping, and every ambitious young person will need to be bilingual, or multilingual, in order to have a chance at a high-end job. I doubt this post made you smile, but I wish you happy holidays anyway. why wait 20 to 40 years? people that can speak 2 languages right now are in much more demand and quite frankly, worth more to an employer, even in "lowly" construction trades.. for some its a requirement.. Not to mention that those other non-English speaking people are likely potential customers also.. I understand why Jeff would not want to learn another language but its something that his kids/grandkid should consider doing (for their own future benefit).. I would certainly encourage any kids I had to do so.. (actually, I would have them taught very early so its second nature to speak fluently in 2 or more languages)

ExquisiteStings -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 9:58:41 PM)
And the big irony is that in a lot of the formative educational institutions like elementary or primary schools, foreign languages are hardly EVER taught (unless they are offered as extra-curricular after class fun time instruction: this is how I had to first learn Spanish; I'd wanted to learn it since the age of 2.5, but I had to wait until after school classes when I was 10, much to my consternation). They seem to not be as frequently taught at middle schools or jr. high and I'd heard somewhere that CA was removing foreign language classes from high school curriculum to save on their budget or something to that effect. Maybe that's only going to take place in the public high schools but it still is a colossally stupid move to make when one considers the huge hispanic population on the West coast. There are many places that mandate that one be bilingual in English & Spanish..but if they deny the schoolkids the chance to learn a second language in school, how many will take it upon themselves to learn the languages on their own? If I'd had a computer and Rosetta Stone software available to me when I wanted to intially commence learning languages, I could have had about 8 -10 under my belt about now, spoken & written.

BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 11:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Sounds like you are just itching to shed the blood of all sorts of creatures. The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country, I thought it was about people unwilling or unable to learn to speak spanish. I would like to see a link to the site that validates your position that english is the national language of the u.s. English is the dominate language of the US

MAINEiacMISTRESS -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/25/2013 11:52:35 PM)
That's funny, here in the "predominantly white" state of Maine at least in local schools they are now teaching foreign languages in first grade, which I think is BS because kids are struggling at that age just to learn to read and write English with proper grammar. Let them get the fundamentals of their own language down pat before bringing in a second. At least wait until 4th. Incidentally, I took French in HS and have NEVER ONCE NEEDED IT, even though there are a few pockets of French Canadian communities here in Maine. I learned a little Chinese Cantonese on My own and have actually used that quite a bit. As for "problems with immigrants", I guess I have a case of "oppositeness" in that most immigrants I meet end up becoming good friends. I have met immigrants from several countries, some here on school visas, some business owners with full US citizenship, some here as war refugees. The ones I meet all have very upstanding morals, place strong emphasis on including friends into their extended family, have a strong work ethic (12 to 16 hour work days, 6 or 7 days a week without complaining), they push their kids at a young age to read (at 2 and 3 years old) and get good grades in school, and other things that are very important to Me. quote: ORIGINAL: ExquisiteStings And the big irony is that in a lot of the formative educational institutions like elementary or primary schools, foreign languages are hardly EVER taught (unless they are offered as extra-curricular after class fun time instruction: this is how I had to first learn Spanish; I'd wanted to learn it since the age of 2.5, but I had to wait until after school classes when I was 10, much to my consternation). They seem to not be as frequently taught at middle schools or jr. high and I'd heard somewhere that CA was removing foreign language classes from high school curriculum to save on their budget or something to that effect. Maybe that's only going to take place in the public high schools but it still is a colossally stupid move to make when one considers the huge hispanic population on the West coast. There are many places that mandate that one be bilingual in English & Spanish..but if they deny the schoolkids the chance to learn a second language in school, how many will take it upon themselves to learn the languages on their own? If I'd had a computer and Rosetta Stone software available to me when I wanted to intially commence learning languages, I could have had about 8 -10 under my belt about now, spoken & written.

BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 12:40:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS That's funny, here in the "predominantly white" state of Maine at least in local schools they are now teaching foreign languages in first grade, which I think is BS because kids are struggling at that age just to learn to read and write English with proper grammar. Let them get the fundamentals of their own language down pat before bringing in a second. At least wait until 4th. Incidentally, I took French in HS and have NEVER ONCE NEEDED IT, even though there are a few pockets of French Canadian communities here in Maine. I learned a little Chinese Cantonese on My own and have actually used that quite a bit. As for "problems with immigrants", I guess I have a case of "oppositeness" in that most immigrants I meet end up becoming good friends. I have met immigrants from several countries, some here on school visas, some business owners with full US citizenship, some here as war refugees. The ones I meet all have very upstanding morals, place strong emphasis on including friends into their extended family, have a strong work ethic (12 to 16 hour work days, 6 or 7 days a week without complaining), they push their kids at a young age to read (at 2 and 3 years old) and get good grades in school, and other things that are very important to Me. quote: ORIGINAL: ExquisiteStings And the big irony is that in a lot of the formative educational institutions like elementary or primary schools, foreign languages are hardly EVER taught (unless they are offered as extra-curricular after class fun time instruction: this is how I had to first learn Spanish; I'd wanted to learn it since the age of 2.5, but I had to wait until after school classes when I was 10, much to my consternation). They seem to not be as frequently taught at middle schools or jr. high and I'd heard somewhere that CA was removing foreign language classes from high school curriculum to save on their budget or something to that effect. Maybe that's only going to take place in the public high schools but it still is a colossally stupid move to make when one considers the huge hispanic population on the West coast. There are many places that mandate that one be bilingual in English & Spanish..but if they deny the schoolkids the chance to learn a second language in school, how many will take it upon themselves to learn the languages on their own? If I'd had a computer and Rosetta Stone software available to me when I wanted to intially commence learning languages, I could have had about 8 -10 under my belt about now, spoken & written. I have a distinct split on my view of "immigrants" Those who come here with the intent of becoming part of this country, like those you seem to have dealt with are essential to our advancement. Those who come here illegally are criminals. Those who expect us to learn their language don't want to be part of us, they want their homeland with better pay.

Zonie63 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 6:11:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD I have a distinct split on my view of "immigrants" Those who come here with the intent of becoming part of this country, like those you seem to have dealt with are essential to our advancement. Those who come here illegally are criminals. Those who expect us to learn their language don't want to be part of us, they want their homeland with better pay. I have mixed views on the issue myself, although I tend to shy away from lumping "immigrants" into a specific category, because they all have different stories, origins, and reasons for being here. When we're talking about immigration from Mexico, it's not just an issue with immigration or language barriers, but there's also a problem with the history between our two countries and an extreme economic disparity between the two countries' standards of living. I once read that, apart from the revenue generated from oil exports, money remittances sent from the U.S. to Mexico are the largest source of foreign income to that country. It's really kind of a sick relationship, in a way. We're sending them cash and guns, while they're sending us cheap labor and narcotics - two addictions America badly needs to break free from. The violence in Mexico is horrendous. We worry so much about places like Iran, but this stuff is going on right across our border, and we do nothing about it. The problem with "immigrants" might be best solved by fixing the problems with Mexico. Their economy, housing, infrastructure, wages, standards of living - some improvements have been made in these areas, but they still have a long way to go. We might have to help them, perhaps some kind of "Marshall Plan" for Latin America might help those on both sides of the border. By making their own countries more livable, they wouldn't have much of a reason to come to the United States, and the problems discussed in this thread would slowly fade away. But as long as these disparities continue to exist, then people from the less affluent areas will gravitate towards areas with higher standards of living. There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it, no matter what we try to do on this side of the border. The problem is also on the other side of the border, too.

tj444 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:23:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 The problem with "immigrants" might be best solved by fixing the problems with Mexico. Their economy, housing, infrastructure, wages, standards of living - some improvements have been made in these areas, but they still have a long way to go. We might have to help them, perhaps some kind of "Marshall Plan" for Latin America might help those on both sides of the border. By making their own countries more livable, they wouldn't have much of a reason to come to the United States, and the problems discussed in this thread would slowly fade away. But as long as these disparities continue to exist, then people from the less affluent areas will gravitate towards areas with higher standards of living. There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it, no matter what we try to do on this side of the border. The problem is also on the other side of the border, too. even if the US could "fix" the problems in Mexico, Mexico has its own illegal immigrant problems and that would only increase.. people living in poorer SA countries would go to Mexico (or perhaps go all the way north to the US, so instead of illegal Mexicans, you would have illegals from those other countries).. You can't "fix" the world.. not to mention ya'll are busy throwing money at fighting Iran, still in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..

thompsonx -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:29:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Do you have nothing better to do than keep up these bald faced lies? At no point have I ever made any such claim about English, and you damn well know it.. Well there is this: quote: The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country, If you think this is a funny game, shall we just go ahead and revisit all your past attempts at justifying child molestation? Please feel free to do as you choose. But : you do know what they say in missouri?

thompsonx -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:48:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD English is the dominate language of the US I would guess that it is dominant by probably close to 75% possibly more. That is not the issue. What is the issue is where another language, in this case spanish, begins to approach parity. Jlf lives in texas and I live in southern california where spanish is a language spoken by nearly half of the population. I have lived here most of my life and in all that time I have encountered latinos who are resistant to learning english and they amount to about five percent of all the latinos I know where as of the anglos I know who are reisitant to learning spanish they amount to about ninety percent and wholy based on pride and not on practicality. In response to that there are two major market chains in s. cal which are latino who have made a big dent in the domonance of the anglo supermarket chains. Their prices are competitive and their stores are clean, well lit and user friendly...the only thing that really distinguishes these two chains from the rest is that all of their employees are bi-lingual. I am sure that you will agree that I can be a priemium class asshole with the least amount of provication couple that with being old, hard of hearing and terminally impatient ...I shop in those two markets because I never have any problems understanding or being understood. After checking with the management it seems that that is one of the criteria of the operating principles of those stores....thus the requirement that all employees be fluent in both spanish and english facilitates that end which facilitates getting their money out of their pockets and into the stores. I have asked how many anglo employees they have and have found that they have none,,,would you hazard a guess as to why?

thompsonx -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 7:59:27 AM)
I have a distinct split on my view of "immigrants" Those who come here with the intent of becoming part of this country, like those you seem to have dealt with are essential to our advancement. You seem to be saying that if they can't or wont bring something to the table then they are not welcome. That is not the same sentiment that is on the statue of liberty. And if those sentiments are not genuine then that would come under the heading of false advertising which, I believe, is a crime. Those who come here illegally are criminals. You and I are both aware that the crime they commit is but a misdomeanor while the crime that those who employ them is a felony. So to present the "criminal" posture is more than a little disingenuous. Those who expect us to learn their language don't want to be part of us, they want their homeland with better pay. Kinda like korporate amerika when they go off shore. Do those folks learn the language of the country they are earning their living in?

thompsonx -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 8:18:22 AM)
I once read that, apart from the revenue generated from oil exports, money remittances sent from the U.S. to Mexico are the largest source of foreign income to that country. I do not know how true that is but if one considers that california is about the tenth largest economy in the world and mexico is california's number one trading partner that might diminish any validity sought by that claim. It's really kind of a sick relationship, in a way. We're sending them cash and guns, while they're sending us cheap labor and narcotics We send them manufactured products and agricultural products and services and get pretty much the same in return. - two addictions America badly needs to break free from. The violence in Mexico is horrendous. I go to mexico about once a month. I go to bull fights , bicycle races I ride public busses. I go to los angeles once a week I go to public venues and ride public busses and in the past forty some years I have not been shot at in either place. We might have to help them, perhaps some kind of "Marshall Plan" for Latin America might help those on both sides of the border. Mexico is not unaware of how the u.s. "helps". We did steal more than half of their country at the point of a gun.

TieMeInKnottss -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 8:39:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx I once read that, apart from the revenue generated from oil exports, money remittances sent from the U.S. to Mexico are the largest source of foreign income to that country. It is called "Remittance Dependency or Remittance Dependent Economies" "In Latin America and the Caribbean, remittances play an important role in the economy of the region, totaling over 66.5 billion USD in 2007, with about 75% originating in the United States. This total represents more than the sum of Foreign direct investment and official development aid combined. In seven Latin American and Caribbean countries, remittances even account for more than 10% of GDP and exceed the dollar flows of the largest export product in almost every country in the region.[16] Percentages ranged from 2% in Mexico, to 18% in El Salvador, 21% in Honduras, and up to 30% in Haiti.[17] The Inter American Development Bank's Multilateral Investment Fund (IDB-MIF) has been the leading agency on regional remittance research.[16]"

windchymes -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 8:45:16 AM)
There are decent Americans and there are douchey Americans. There are decent immigrants and there are douchey immigrants. And each group thinks they are the decent ones and thinks the other group needs to change to be more like them. I do have to say, though, those original European immigrants were pretty darn douchey to the people who were already here, who generally were pretty willing to share and get along if things were done fairly and respectfully, but the douchey immigrants felt that they were entitled to just take it all and justified in annihilating anything that got in their way to take it.

EdBowie -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 9:38:38 AM)
So your response to getting caught lying about 'my position' is to jump from a post I made about people all around the world coping with new languages, and pretend that you've proven that I said that English was the 'national' language? All that 'Shows Me' is that you can't stop fucking lying. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Do you have nothing better to do than keep up these bald faced lies? At no point have I ever made any such claim about English, and you damn well know it.. Well there is this: quote: The topic here has been about those unwilling or unable to learn the language in their new country, If you think this is a funny game, shall we just go ahead and revisit all your past attempts at justifying child molestation? Please feel free to do as you choose. But : you do know what they say in missouri?

jlf1961 -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 10:03:25 AM)
First of all, let me explain, I was born in Arizona, Chandler AFB to be exact, then we were transferred to Germany. So for the first years of my life I was speaking English and German, and would switch between the two without thinking. I did not take Spanish in school, because quite frankly, I didnt want to, and at the time, I rarely met anyone any where that did not have a very good use of the English language. I have met immigrants from Europe and Asia that seem to make a point to learn English. My problem is the individuals who do not want to learn English and expect to be understood in a predominately English speaking country. I am not talking about the second or third generation to be in this country either.

OsideGirl -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 10:16:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExquisiteStings And the big irony is that in a lot of the formative educational institutions like elementary or primary schools, foreign languages are hardly EVER taught (unless they are offered as extra-curricular after class fun time instruction: this is how I had to first learn Spanish; I'd wanted to learn it since the age of 2.5, but I had to wait until after school classes when I was 10, much to my consternation). They seem to not be as frequently taught at middle schools or jr. high and I'd heard somewhere that CA was removing foreign language classes from high school curriculum to save on their budget or something to that effect. Maybe that's only going to take place in the public high schools but it still is a colossally stupid move to make when one considers the huge hispanic population on the West coast. There are many places that mandate that one be bilingual in English & Spanish..but if they deny the schoolkids the chance to learn a second language in school, how many will take it upon themselves to learn the languages on their own? If I'd had a computer and Rosetta Stone software available to me when I wanted to intially commence learning languages, I could have had about 8 -10 under my belt about now, spoken & written. There's a big divide in San Diego. Some of the schools teach in Spanish because the kids don't know English. Because those schools tend to be in the poor areas of the city, property taxes are low, which means the schools in those areas struggle to get enough funding. Add to that classes get duplicated in Spanish for the non-English speakers and then in English for the kids that speak English, bringing the cost to fund the school up. They simply don't have the resources to do more. In other areas of the county are charter schools that do intense bilingual education including one that focuses on Mandarin.

crazyml -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 10:56:09 AM)
How is your little "reading for understanding" project going? <snort>

BamaD -> RE: I am quickly developing a problem with immigrants. (12/26/2013 11:06:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 The problem with "immigrants" might be best solved by fixing the problems with Mexico. Their economy, housing, infrastructure, wages, standards of living - some improvements have been made in these areas, but they still have a long way to go. We might have to help them, perhaps some kind of "Marshall Plan" for Latin America might help those on both sides of the border. By making their own countries more livable, they wouldn't have much of a reason to come to the United States, and the problems discussed in this thread would slowly fade away. But as long as these disparities continue to exist, then people from the less affluent areas will gravitate towards areas with higher standards of living. There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it, no matter what we try to do on this side of the border. The problem is also on the other side of the border, too. even if the US could "fix" the problems in Mexico, Mexico has its own illegal immigrant problems and that would only increase.. people living in poorer SA countries would go to Mexico (or perhaps go all the way north to the US, so instead of illegal Mexicans, you would have illegals from those other countries).. You can't "fix" the world.. not to mention ya'll are busy throwing money at fighting Iran, still in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.. Then do you suggest that we turn the southern border into the Berlin wall(except to keep people out) or that we just open our borders completely and surrender.

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