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RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/12/2014 5:08:21 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.


According to this perspective, the Palestinians are denied even a right to exist. One wonders why Israel chooses to negotiate with a grouping that, according to this perspective, doesn't exist. This claim is only one of many blatant falsehoods continually advanced by apologists for Zionism and Zionists.

One might also wonder why Israel , which so loudly insists that the world recognises its own right to exist, denies the same right to other Stateless peoples. Palestinian claims to Statehood, based on the 1967 borders are recognised by over 120 countries or more than 2/3 of the world.


quote:

Phydeaux
I support Israel, pretty much regardless of what they might do.


Thank you for letting us know where you stand on the OP, which detailed the torture of children. It seems that not only do you support the torture of children but are also supportive of Israeli ethnic cleansing, war crimes and apartheid.

I wonder how many Americans share your view? I doubt that many Americans would support any of the heinous Israeli policies listed above.


Yeah. And if you read the post I detailed above it seems like the 'heinous Israeli policies' are debunked above.

As in: it never happened.

You'll find out my position on ethnic cleansing when it happens.


The accusations of torture were supported by numerous independent respected sources in the OP and subsequent posts. The alleged "debunking" is the work of one semi-official Israeli propaganda site, a site established with the sole purpose of advancing the Zionist perspective. No other evidence was offered. If you think any one would accept the claims of one biased site over numerous independent respected sites all I can say is that most people aren't as gullible as you appear to want them to be.

If any one has any doubt about Israeli ethnic cleansing or apartheid, I suggest they visit YouTube and key in 'ethnic cleansing Palestine' or 'Apartheid Palestine' and view the dozens of videos there proving Israeli ethnic cleansing and apartheid for themselves.

Israel has practiced ethnic cleansing since its foundation and continues to do so today in the Negev and the West Bank. Even Israeli historians agree that Israel was founded on massive ethnic cleansing.



quote:

These lands are conquered lands - Israel may deal with them as it chooses. I do not find it unreasonable for Israel to say - the precursor to your existence is that you recognize Israel as a jewish state. No one I know is advocating for killing "Palestinians". As opposed to so many muslims advocating death to Israel.


Colonising lands acquired by military force is a specific war crime under the Geneva Conventions. You are advocating war crimes when you advocate the 'settling' of Occupied Palestine. It is a flagrant breach of international law.

_____________________________



(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/12/2014 6:25:33 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.


According to this perspective, the Palestinians are denied even a right to exist. One wonders why Israel chooses to negotiate with a grouping that, according to this perspective, doesn't exist. This claim is only one of many blatant falsehoods continually advanced by apologists for Zionism and Zionists.

One might also wonder why Israel , which so loudly insists that the world recognises its own right to exist, denies the same right to other Stateless peoples. Palestinian claims to Statehood, based on the 1967 borders are recognised by over 120 countries or more than 2/3 of the world.


quote:

Phydeaux
I support Israel, pretty much regardless of what they might do.


Thank you for letting us know where you stand on the OP, which detailed the torture of children. It seems that not only do you support the torture of children but are also supportive of Israeli ethnic cleansing, war crimes and apartheid.

I wonder how many Americans share your view? I doubt that many Americans would support any of the heinous Israeli policies listed above.


Yeah. And if you read the post I detailed above it seems like the 'heinous Israeli policies' are debunked above.

As in: it never happened.

You'll find out my position on ethnic cleansing when it happens.


The accusations of torture were supported by numerous independent respected sources in the OP and subsequent posts. The alleged "debunking" is the work of one semi-official Israeli propaganda site, a site established with the sole purpose of advancing the Zionist perspective. No other evidence was offered. If you think any one would accept the claims of one biased site over numerous independent respected sites all I can say is that most people aren't as gullible as you appear to want them to be.

If any one has any doubt about Israeli ethnic cleansing or apartheid, I suggest they visit YouTube and key in 'ethnic cleansing Palestine' or 'Apartheid Palestine' and view the dozens of videos there proving Israeli ethnic cleansing and apartheid for themselves.

Israel has practiced ethnic cleansing since its foundation and continues to do so today in the Negev and the West Bank. Even Israeli historians agree that Israel was founded on massive ethnic cleansing.


Actually, my debunking claim is based on reading the ORIGINAL complaints. Which, as I said, had nothing to do with palestinians.
The story seems to have originated with a Brit that simply made it up - with no corroborating sources, and it has widely been reported.
Widely reported is not the same as true, however.

So, if you can point out some documentation that has actual proof of Palestinian children left outside in the cold for months I'd be happy to read it.
Proof, means things like - dates and times tweak - not unsubstantiated allegations.

quote:


quote:

These lands are conquered lands - Israel may deal with them as it chooses. I do not find it unreasonable for Israel to say - the precursor to your existence is that you recognize Israel as a jewish state. No one I know is advocating for killing "Palestinians". As opposed to so many muslims advocating death to Israel.


Colonising lands acquired by military force is a specific war crime under the Geneva Conventions. You are advocating war crimes when you advocate the 'settling' of Occupied Palestine. It is a flagrant breach of international law.


First: Quote the geneva convenions that say that.
Second: I don't really give a rats ass. Russia's takeover of ossetia a few years ago- is that a 'war crime'? Kosovo's annexation- is that a war crime?
How about the muslims murdering of animists and christians in darfur? How about china's take over of vietnamese territories?

I have no doubt that Israel has concquered lands. I have no doubt that Israel has expelled the inhabitants of those lands. Making war 'illegal' is just flat out stupid.

Again - Isarel expelled people. Muslims just kill them. Which is better?





< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/12/2014 6:26:01 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/12/2014 8:48:23 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

quote:


quote:

These lands are conquered lands - Israel may deal with them as it chooses. I do not find it unreasonable for Israel to say - the precursor to your existence is that you recognize Israel as a jewish state. No one I know is advocating for killing "Palestinians". As opposed to so many muslims advocating death to Israel.


Colonising lands acquired by military force is a specific war crime under the Geneva Conventions. You are advocating war crimes when you advocate the 'settling' of Occupied Palestine. It is a flagrant breach of international law.


First: Quote the geneva convenions that say that.
Second: I don't really give a rats ass. Russia's takeover of ossetia a few years ago- is that a 'war crime'? Kosovo's annexation- is that a war crime?
How about the muslims murdering of animists and christians in darfur? How about china's take over of vietnamese territories?

I have no doubt that Israel has concquered lands. I have no doubt that Israel has expelled the inhabitants of those lands. Making war 'illegal' is just flat out stupid.

Again - Isarel expelled people. Muslims just kill them. Which is better?



The relevant law is Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
So it's crystal clear - Israel is forbidden to "transfer" the settlers/colonists. To transfer the colonists is a war crime.

Re: Your claim that "Isarel expelled people. Muslims just kill them." This is inaccurate. Israel kills Palestinians too. By the busload. Women children the aged combatants and non-combatants are all killed with impunity - no Palestinian is safe from the thugs of the IDF, which has managed to kill approx 1500 children since 2000.

"Which is better?" Both sides are up to their necks in innocent blood. No side hold the 'high moral ground'. But one side has a State of its own and the other hasn't. Until this is remedied, expect more bloodshed and atrocities. Neither side will enjoy security until a fair and just peace is agreed upon,

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/12/2014 9:23:16 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		I don't agree with the terms "fair and just". They are mere pejorative.

However, tink - I think that its in Israels interests to come to an agreement with palestine.
But so long as the palestinians see israel as muslim; so long as they won't agree to no return - its a non starter.

Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 1/12/2014 9:43:49 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 1:10:01 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


http://www.btselem.org/.

Sadly the only ridiculous aspect to this statistic is that the IDF is getting away with killing children on an industrial scale

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 3:46:58 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I don't agree with the terms "fair and just". They are mere pejorative.

However, tink - I think that its in Israels interests to come to an agreement with palestine.
But so long as the palestinians see israel as muslim; so long as they won't agree to no return - its a non starter.

Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


I didnt think you would agree with "fair and just".

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 8:05:37 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I support Israel, pretty much regardless of what they might do.






That pretty much sums up the problem in a very succinct sentence.

You and a lot of Americans( and others too) don't seem to grasp the amazement and shock that sort of statement generates in the rest of the western world and the hatred in produces in countless other countries.

Do you not see, or maybe refuse to see that you are condemning America and a lot of other nations to a long and painful fight with that sort of rhetoric?

I despise terrorism as much as anyone but like it of not all you are doing is adding fuel to the fire and I have no idea how many people will die because of it.

I do know that many Americans will die because of it, as will many of my countrymen too.


I think thoughts like that are pretty much offset by the ones on the other side who will support the Palestines pretty much regardless of what they might do. And personally I could give a rats ass what might piss off a terrorist. They are cowards who try to bully the rest of the world into doing what they want. In fact the more people tell me that if I support someone they will continue to kill the more likely I am to continue supporting them. If the Palestines want people to support their cause and care about their kids perhaps they should stop strapping bombs on them and act like they care too.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to deathtothepixies)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 8:21:14 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I think thoughts like that are pretty much offset by the ones on the other side who will support the Palestines pretty much regardless of what they might do. And personally I could give a rats ass what might piss off a terrorist. They are cowards who try to bully the rest of the world into doing what they want. In fact the more people tell me that if I support someone they will continue to kill the more likely I am to continue supporting them. If the Palestines want people to support their cause and care about their kids perhaps they should stop strapping bombs on them and act like they care too.

There have been no bombings in quite a number of years? Right?

There is terrorism from backpack bombs and there is terrorism from remote control drones. Seems like an issue of asymmetry. Which is the more cowardly? The drones, I think.

Most of the world's nations, including the Europeans, support the Palestinian cause.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 11:33:40 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I don't agree with the terms "fair and just". They are mere pejorative.

However, tink - I think that its in Israels interests to come to an agreement with palestine.
But so long as the palestinians see israel as muslim; so long as they won't agree to no return - its a non starter.

Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


I didnt think you would agree with "fair and just".



Certainly. Because there is no such thing. It adds nothing to the conversation. Either the Palestinians agree to a treaty or they don't. I am sure that if they agree - they will think it fair and just. So will the Israelis.

Is it fair that Britains earn 20 times as much as Chinese?
If you are british - presumably.
If you are Chinese - you might think other wise.

But the very concept of 'fair' adds not one jot or tittle to the conversation except to identify what people believed they are entitle to.

And since your sense of entitlement will not do a damn thing to stop jobs being lost to china....

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 11:35:48 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


http://www.btselem.org/.

Sadly the only ridiculous aspect to this statistic is that the IDF is getting away with killing children on an industrial scale


So, the answer is No.
Wish you would have just said that rather than waste my time at a site that doesn't backup your claim.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 12:28:47 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		The same way China has transferred millions into and out of Tibet?


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


The relevant law is Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention
So it's crystal clear - Israel is forbidden to "transfer" the settlers/colonists. To transfer the colonists is a war crime.

Re: Your claim that "Isarel expelled people. Muslims just kill them." This is inaccurate. Israel kills Palestinians too. By the busload. Women children the aged combatants and non-combatants are all killed with impunity - no Palestinian is safe from the thugs of the IDF, which has managed to kill approx 1500 children since 2000.

"Which is better?" Both sides are up to their necks in innocent blood. No side hold the 'high moral ground'. But one side has a State of its own and the other hasn't. Until this is remedied, expect more bloodshed and atrocities. Neither side will enjoy security until a fair and just peace is agreed upon,



_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 12:54:22 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Certainly. Because there is no such thing. It adds nothing to the conversation. Either the Palestinians agree to a treaty or they don't. I am sure that if they agree - they will think it fair and just. So will the Israelis.

Is it fair that Britains earn 20 times as much as Chinese?
If you are british - presumably.
If you are Chinese - you might think other wise.

But the very concept of 'fair' adds not one jot or tittle to the conversation except to identify what people believed they are entitle to.

And since your sense of entitlement will not do a damn thing to stop jobs being lost to china....


Only you could turn a thread about the torture of children, Palestinian or Israeli, into jobs in China. Always a sure sign you are losing the debate.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 2:51:01 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline

Imagine all the peoplethrowing rocks at us...
Why don't the grown ups do it?
Why do they send their kids?
Palestinians are guilty in fact of using child soldiers this way.

Funny how you can turn every little fuckin thing against you...

When you use your kids to fight your battles, you must have a lousy army.

Don't worry we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget in order to protect the wellfare of your offspring.
You're welcome.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 3:42:40 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


http://www.btselem.org/.

Sadly the only ridiculous aspect to this statistic is that the IDF is getting away with killing children on an industrial scale


So, the answer is No.
Wish you would have just said that rather than waste my time at a site that doesn't backup your claim.


The data is there at the site listed. It might help if you actually want to find the information.

Look in the statistics section for 'Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces'. You need to aggregate the totals from 3 different time frames - before Cast Lead, during Cast Lead and since Cast Lead. It comes to 1358. The UN figures, which is where the c1500 figure I quoted is sourced, are higher. I chose to offer you the B'Tselem site as a source because it is more conservative and far more detailed.

Whether the actual number is c1500 or 1358, it averages at roughly one child killed by the IDF every 3 days over 13 years. The numbers of children killed by the Israeli security forces are astronomical and totally unacceptable in any civilised society.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/13/2014 4:07:02 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 3:59:29 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		In June alone, 193 Palestinians were killed of which 181 were from factional violence.The rise of inter-factional fighting has also proved deadly for children: since 2005 a total of 39 Palestinian children have died from internal fighting. In 2007, approximately the same number of Palestinian children was killed as a result of internal violence (26) as were killed by Israeli security forces (25). - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272#sthash.UDbpN5qo.dpuf

Here's your M.I.A. kids...
You should read it good source material!

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 4:22:40 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani



Imagine all the peoplethrowing rocks at us...
Why don't the grown ups do it?
Why do they send their kids?
Palestinians are guilty in fact of using child soldiers this way.

Funny how you can turn every little fuckin thing against you...

When you use your kids to fight your battles, you must have a lousy army.

Don't worry we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget in order to protect the wellfare of your offspring.
You're welcome.


More obnoxious bullshit.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 4:37:42 PM   
EdBowie


Posts: 875
Joined: 8/11/2013
Status: offline 		Targeting hospitals and schools from behind the cover of children so that the IDF has no choice to but return fire is a clever propaganda advantage, and a noble idea from the good guys?

You've ignored everything from the Holocaust on out in your zealotry to sustain the fiction that the bad actions by todays Israeli government are totally spontaneous. In the real world, the bad actions are directly caused by the corruption of power. Power that was handed to the politicians by the 90+ year campaign to kill every single Jew on the planet.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Don't suppose you have a source for the 1500 children killed by the IDF since 2000.
Frankly, that seems pretty ridiculous.


http://www.btselem.org/.

Sadly the only ridiculous aspect to this statistic is that the IDF is getting away with killing children on an industrial scale


So, the answer is No.
Wish you would have just said that rather than waste my time at a site that doesn't backup your claim.


The data is there at the site listed. It might help if you actually want to find the information.

Look in the statistics section for 'Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces'. You need to aggregate the totals from 3 different time frames - before Cast Lead, during Cast Lead and since Cast Lead. It comes to 1358. The UN figures, which is where the c1500 figure I quoted is sourced, are higher. I chose to offer you the B'Tselem site as a source because it is more conservative and far more detailed.

Whether the actual number is c1500 or 1358, it averages at roughly one child killed by the IDF every 3 days over 13 years. The numbers of children killed by the Israeli security forces are astronomical and totally unacceptable in any civilised society.



_____________________________

Reading for understanding, instead of for argumentation, has its advantages.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 4:40:57 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani



Imagine all the peoplethrowing rocks at us...
Why don't the grown ups do it?
Why do they send their kids?
Palestinians are guilty in fact of using child soldiers this way.

Funny how you can turn every little fuckin thing against you...

When you use your kids to fight your battles, you must have a lousy army.

Don't worry we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget in order to protect the wellfare of your offspring.
You're welcome.


More obnoxious bullshit.


Duhu I bet you would let your kids throw rocks at tanks too!

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 1/13/2014 4:42:21 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 5:49:40 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

MrBukani
Imagine all the peoplethrowing rocks at us...
Why don't the grown ups do it?
Why do they send their kids?
Palestinians are guilty in fact of using child soldiers this way.

Funny how you can turn every little fuckin thing against you...

When you use your kids to fight your battles, you must have a lousy army.

Don't worry we'll teach them a lesson they'll never forget in order to protect the wellfare of your offspring.
You're welcome.


In the cesspit of sentiments articulated in this post, one thing emerges as easily the most ghastly and repulsive.

The mocking tone, the smileys, the sad failed attempts at humour, the text in all its brutal primitive simplicity all alert the reader to the fact that the post takes pleasure in the violent deaths of Palestinian children at the hands of the IDF. Even among the already brutal abysmally vile standards of Zionism, this represents a new low.

Can someone ... anyone ... please explain how the violent deaths of children at the hands of the IDF (or, for that matter, anyone at all) is something to snigger about, to mock, and to generate whatever perverse pleasure some morally- and ethically-bankrupt monster finds in this horror?

For anyone with any kind of morality, the violent deaths of any child(ren) anywhere are not joking matters. They are always tragedies.

thishereboi never fails to express her revulsion at child suicide bombers. If her outrage isn't the cynical politically selective posturing some suspect it is, she will be equally repulsed by the sentiments in MrBukani's post. I'll look forward to seeing her condemn MrBukani's attempt to justify the violent deaths of children at the hands of the IDF in equally sweeping terms ........

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/13/2014 5:53:09 PM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Israel still torturing children - 1/13/2014 6:27:06 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		When you're a witness as I was of muslim parents condoning throwing rocks and defending their acts, I say fuck it.

Expect a gruesome return on investments.

Would you raise your kids like that?

Please do say so, I need another snigger.



Go ahead with your jewbashing, I'm having a fieldday on it. Please continue.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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