RE: Israel still torturing children

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tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/14/2014 6:07:17 PM)
Here's a graphic account of one cold blooded murder by the IDF: "Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old. The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun’s magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a “security area” on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month. A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army’s account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood. The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb. But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier. Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a “girl of about 10” who was “scared to death”. The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot. At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then “confirmed the kill” by emptying his magazine into her body. The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post’s operations room and the captain, who was a company commander. The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: “It’s a little girl. She’s running defensively eastward.” Operations room: “Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?” Watchtower: “A girl of about 10, she’s behind the embankment, scared to death.” A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts. The watchtower: “I think that one of the positions took her out.” The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless. Captain R: “I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over.” Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah’s hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times. On the tape, the company commander then “clarifies” why he killed Iman: “This is commander. Anything that’s mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it’s a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over.” The army’s original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired. The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing. A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had “not acted unethically”. However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html In Nov 2005, this officer was acquitted of all charges by an IDF court. While there may be other occasions, this is the only instance that I am aware of that an Israeli Jewish IDF member has faced charges in relation to Palestinian children killed by the IDF. I am aware of one other instance where a Druze IDF soldier faced charges. http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-court-acquits-officer-accused-of-confirming-kill-of-gaza-girl-1.174173

Zonie63 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/14/2014 6:41:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Ah - hello! You seem to forget that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews as well. It is the land that YHWH promised to the Jews, the land of milk and honey. It is the only land where a Temple was built - and the only land where a temple MAY be built. Even from their times of enslavement - by the egyptians, by the persians, by the syrians - the jews always remembered when they were free men in Israel - and kept alive their traditions. Abraham had a son by Hagar (a slave) - called Ishmael - from whom the muslims claim heritage. Abraham had a son by Sarah - called Jacob - from whom the Israelites claim heritage. I didn't forget it, but I believe in the separation of Church and State, so none of the above has any relevance to secular geopolitics. quote: The Israelites conquered the land of Palestine - often completely killing any native residents. They were supressed under Roman rule - and then eventually under Ottoman rule. So I don't think you can really say that any people really have a right to the land. Given that one really can't establish a valid case or cause, you can't really find a reason to disposess the Israelis. Regarding WWI & WWII - start reading with the Mufti - and his german ties. Leaving aside the question of who has the "right" to the land, I was questioning the practicality of it all. Keep in mind I was responding to EdBowie's post where he referenced Israel's struggle for survival. So, all things considered, was moving to the British Mandate of Palestine in the hopes of making it a Jewish homeland truly the most practical decision that could have been made? The whole idea was about survival for Jewish people, not about building a temple. All I was saying that their chances of survival might have been better in some other location. Obviously, it's all water under the bridge now, but just sayin'.

Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/14/2014 7:29:20 PM)
Look tink. I hate the child was killed. But as heinous as the fact that one asshole committed murder is - it doesn't show Israeli's have a policy to target palestinian children. The very fact that israeli soldiers reported it, and the Israeli army investigated it - proves the opposite. The Israelis and the Palestinians have two choices. One is to fight. The other is to make peace. Israel made peace with Egypt. They made peace with Syria. They made peace with Iran, Jordan. So its possible. The palestinians and the israelis both have to make the decision that the cost of peace is less than the cost of war. And I don't see that decision.

Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/14/2014 7:35:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Ah - hello! You seem to forget that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews as well. It is the land that YHWH promised to the Jews, the land of milk and honey. It is the only land where a Temple was built - and the only land where a temple MAY be built. Even from their times of enslavement - by the egyptians, by the persians, by the syrians - the jews always remembered when they were free men in Israel - and kept alive their traditions. Abraham had a son by Hagar (a slave) - called Ishmael - from whom the muslims claim heritage. Abraham had a son by Sarah - called Jacob - from whom the Israelites claim heritage. I didn't forget it, but I believe in the separation of Church and State, so none of the above has any relevance to secular geopolitics. quote: The Israelites conquered the land of Palestine - often completely killing any native residents. They were supressed under Roman rule - and then eventually under Ottoman rule. So I don't think you can really say that any people really have a right to the land. Given that one really can't establish a valid case or cause, you can't really find a reason to disposess the Israelis. Regarding WWI & WWII - start reading with the Mufti - and his german ties. Leaving aside the question of who has the "right" to the land, I was questioning the practicality of it all. Keep in mind I was responding to EdBowie's post where he referenced Israel's struggle for survival. So, all things considered, was moving to the British Mandate of Palestine in the hopes of making it a Jewish homeland truly the most practical decision that could have been made? The whole idea was about survival for Jewish people, not about building a temple. All I was saying that their chances of survival might have been better in some other location. Obviously, it's all water under the bridge now, but just sayin'. I think you did forget it. I don't think its possible to argue that there hasn't been a continuous jewish population in the area that is now israel. Around 1917 or so, it was viewed as a part of syria. So if having large numbers of jews; if having historical ties to the land; and having large numbers of people that choose to live as a jewish state isn't enough - what is. When the lands were conquered by the ottomans - wasn't that the basis for making it a muslim/arab state?

EdBowie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/14/2014 9:54:53 PM)
Nice try, I wasn't responding to that post, I responded to the one you addressed to me... as you well know. In other words, no proof of the personal allegations, no proof that anything I posted about the Holocaust/Palestine connection was fraudulent, just more smoke and diversions. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie That's your idea of proof? You can't even provide a link that shows the dates of this day to day/back to back transition? You can't even provide the real name of the person supposedly using both these accounts at the same time? Why not, since you have all this extra-special knowledge? You are on about what you are always on about... the usual attempt to shout down, drag down, smear down any productive discussion of a destructive issue by denying the documented historical facts and making it always about personal attacks on the person posting.... never about proof. What I posted about the Holocaust and the connection to the situation in Palestine today is on the record, your attack in direct response is on the record, and my proof is on the record. That 'change the subject' tap dance isn't fooling anyone. The post I replied to regards "none so blind" was to Phydeaux, thats why I put his name in it, clearly I felt you would comprehend such a simple fact. Your slur I referred to was, as I said, regards your post to Tweaks and the odious claim you made about her reasons for posting. The change of subject was because you mentioned Irving to me, I hadnt said a word about him, the subject was the deaths of children. As for days and dates, time will tell.

MrBukani -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 1:51:01 AM)
I am so happy you brought up 'evil' captain R Tweak. Here's my answer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing The Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing was the suicide bombing of a crowded public bus (Egged bus 2) in the Shmuel HaNavi quarter in Jerusalem, Israel, on August 19, 2003. Twenty-four people were killed and over 130 wounded. Many of the victims were children, some of them infants.[1] The Islamist militant group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. Palestinians kill children just as well by the busloads with bombs. But we never here you rap about that do we? With israeli soldiers these are isolated incidents. With palestinians it seems to be structural intention by superiors. There is a difference. Now who is the most evil here?

Zonie63 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 4:21:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Ah - hello! You seem to forget that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews as well. It is the land that YHWH promised to the Jews, the land of milk and honey. It is the only land where a Temple was built - and the only land where a temple MAY be built. Even from their times of enslavement - by the egyptians, by the persians, by the syrians - the jews always remembered when they were free men in Israel - and kept alive their traditions. Abraham had a son by Hagar (a slave) - called Ishmael - from whom the muslims claim heritage. Abraham had a son by Sarah - called Jacob - from whom the Israelites claim heritage. I didn't forget it, but I believe in the separation of Church and State, so none of the above has any relevance to secular geopolitics. quote: The Israelites conquered the land of Palestine - often completely killing any native residents. They were supressed under Roman rule - and then eventually under Ottoman rule. So I don't think you can really say that any people really have a right to the land. Given that one really can't establish a valid case or cause, you can't really find a reason to disposess the Israelis. Regarding WWI & WWII - start reading with the Mufti - and his german ties. Leaving aside the question of who has the "right" to the land, I was questioning the practicality of it all. Keep in mind I was responding to EdBowie's post where he referenced Israel's struggle for survival. So, all things considered, was moving to the British Mandate of Palestine in the hopes of making it a Jewish homeland truly the most practical decision that could have been made? The whole idea was about survival for Jewish people, not about building a temple. All I was saying that their chances of survival might have been better in some other location. Obviously, it's all water under the bridge now, but just sayin'. I think you did forget it. I don't think its possible to argue that there hasn't been a continuous jewish population in the area that is now israel. Around 1917 or so, it was viewed as a part of syria. So if having large numbers of jews; if having historical ties to the land; and having large numbers of people that choose to live as a jewish state isn't enough - what is. When the lands were conquered by the ottomans - wasn't that the basis for making it a muslim/arab state? I didn't forget anything, but it just wasn't part of the point I was making, just as your response here doesn't address my point either. The territory itself has been idolized and fought over for centuries.

Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 6:32:21 AM)
Zonie, Im not sure what your point is. You said perhaps the Jews could have gone somewhere else. Think about that: Does it make any sense? Image that you were American and told to leave America. Would it make sense that you should just go - anywhere else? Let alone that Israel is the seat of your religion - and Israel is far more than a nation - it is the fulfillment of a religion. Even if the jews could go somewhere else - how does that make any sense? They have ties to ISRAEL. You would propose disenfranchising some other nationality for the sake of .... convenience?

VideoAdminGamma -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 7:52:28 AM)
Fast reply Please refrain from making personal attacks. Calling someone a racist, jewhater, or bigot is considered a personal attack. You may attack the post or idea, but not the poster. Thanks, Gamma

Zonie63 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 10:07:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Zonie, Im not sure what your point is. My point was to look at it from a practical standpoint, but obviously, it's all hindsight now and can't be changed. Still, it should be mentioned when looking at the overall question of "who started it." quote: You said perhaps the Jews could have gone somewhere else. Think about that: Does it make any sense? Image that you were American and told to leave America. Would it make sense that you should just go - anywhere else? Let alone that Israel is the seat of your religion - and Israel is far more than a nation - it is the fulfillment of a religion. I'm not sure if asking me about leaving America is an analogous situation. I was referring to people who hadn't previously lived in Israel yet chose to go live there of their own free will. If a bunch of Americans decided they wanted to set up their own nation in Antarctica, I might question that choice as well. I never said that anyone should leave or go somewhere else. It's their choice, and I respect that. But in that same vein, some choices entail consequences. I'm not saying that things are turning out the way anyone wanted them to turn out over there. But I think any objective analysis should look at all the angles. quote: Even if the jews could go somewhere else - how does that make any sense? They have ties to ISRAEL. You would propose disenfranchising some other nationality for the sake of .... convenience? No, I was just saying it would have been more practical, but it's already a moot point now. I wasn't proposing disenfranchising some other nationality either. I don't see how you can make that extrapolation from what I said. I'm not even proposing anything here, and frankly, it wouldn't matter even if I was proposing anything. I was just making an observation about what I see about this situation which seems to get so much of America's attention, for as long as I can remember. It's an ongoing blood feud which may not ever end.

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 3:50:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Nice try, I wasn't responding to that post, I responded to the one you addressed to me... as you well know. In other words, no proof of the personal allegations, no proof that anything I posted about the Holocaust/Palestine connection was fraudulent, just more smoke and diversions. Yada yada yada.......... I made it quite clear why I posted what I did.

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 3:57:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani asinine say it, I hear the word ass don't you? It is spelt with one "s" so you hear very little, asinine indeed. I am from the UK so if it was my intention to call you an arse, an ass is a donkey, then I would have said arse. Cherry picking individual years from your own link DOESNT alter the overall figures, does it.

Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 4:24:15 PM)
Ah. And in yet another example of slanted journalism. The repulsive account graphicly depicted below may ALSO be a line. It turns out the main witness has recanted and said he maid it all up. Details here: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/key-witness-i-lied-in-confirm-kill-case-1.149501 quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Here's a graphic account of one cold blooded murder by the IDF: "Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old. The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun’s magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a “security area” on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month. A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army’s account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood. The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb. But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier. Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a “girl of about 10” who was “scared to death”. The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot. At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then “confirmed the kill” by emptying his magazine into her body. The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post’s operations room and the captain, who was a company commander. The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: “It’s a little girl. She’s running defensively eastward.” Operations room: “Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?” Watchtower: “A girl of about 10, she’s behind the embankment, scared to death.” A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts. The watchtower: “I think that one of the positions took her out.” The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless. Captain R: “I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over.” Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah’s hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times. On the tape, the company commander then “clarifies” why he killed Iman: “This is commander. Anything that’s mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it’s a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over.” The army’s original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired. The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing. A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had “not acted unethically”. However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html In Nov 2005, this officer was acquitted of all charges by an IDF court. While there may be other occasions, this is the only instance that I am aware of that an Israeli Jewish IDF member has faced charges in relation to Palestinian children killed by the IDF. I am aware of one other instance where a Druze IDF soldier faced charges. http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-court-acquits-officer-accused-of-confirming-kill-of-gaza-girl-1.174173

EdBowie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 4:53:21 PM)
Yes... to derail or get closed yet another thread on this subject when the denier parroting propagandists are being handed their asses by the facts. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Nice try, I wasn't responding to that post, I responded to the one you addressed to me... as you well know. In other words, no proof of the personal allegations, no proof that anything I posted about the Holocaust/Palestine connection was fraudulent, just more smoke and diversions. Yada yada yada.......... I made it quite clear why I posted what I did.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 4:53:56 PM)
Clutching at straws, Phydeaux? The poor girl ended up being shot 17 times according to doctors. Care to explain those 17 shots away? The tape proves the sequence of events. Those who recanted their evidence were IDF members. The possibility that these IDF soldiers came under pressure from their IDF superiors to change their stories has not been eliminated. And when you've finishing spinning all that away, care to explain the other c1500 dead Palestinian children. It has been claimed that some were suicide bombers but if that claim is valid, at best it can account for <2% of those deaths. It has also been claimed that children were used as human shields when the IDF killed them. Yet not a single actual case of that occurring has been advanced. Until an actual case is advanced, this explanation is pure speculation. The number of dead Palestinian children are such that one must consider systematic targeting as an explanation. We know that Israel tortures children. We know that Israel uses ethnic cleansing to drive Palestinians from their ancestral lands. We know that Israel uses apartheid, which necessarily involves regarding Palestinians as sub-human at one level or another. It's not a big step from that to actually targeting the kids to intimidate a people that refuses to roll over and disappear as the Israelis want them to. When it comes to brutality, there is no way of separating the two sides in the conflict. Both are up to their necks in the blood of innocents. Both sides have long histories of carrying out atrocities on the other. Stop sanitising the IDF's murders and pretending that Israel pays anything more than lip service to civilised values

EdBowie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 5:00:49 PM)
That's an amazing load of projection. Poster after poster here has referred to some of the actions of the Israeli government as 'atrocities', and 'horrible', etc. and you keep repeating the deliberate lie that they are applauding the deaths and suffering. Meanwhile, you continue to handwave away all wrongdoing on the part of the other side, going so far as to deny the documented history from the Holocaust right up to what is happening today. You ran away when I asked you this question last time. A rational approach to putting an end to these problems would be to honestly examine all the factors... why won't you? quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Clutching at straws, Phydeaux? The poor girl ended up being shot 17 times according to doctors. Care to explain those 17 shots away? And when you've finishing spinning that away, care to explain the other c1500 dead Palestinian children. You have claimed that some were suicide bombers but if that claim is valid, at best it can account for <2% of those deaths. It has also been claimed that children were used as human shields as a cause of IDF killing them. Yet not a single actual case of that occurring has been advanced. The number of dead Palestinian children are such that one must consider systematic targeting as an explanation. We know that Israel tortures children. We know that Israel uses ethnic cleansing to drive Palestinians from their ancestral lands. We know that Israel uses apartheid, which necessarily involves regarding Palestinians as sub-human at one level or another. It's not a big step from that to actually targeting the kids to intimidate a people that refuses to roll over and disappear as the Israelis want them to. When it comes to brutality, there is no way of separating the two sides in the conflict. Both are up to their necks in the blood of innocents. Both sides have long histories of carrying out atrocities on the other. Stop sanitising the IDF's murders and pretending that Israel pays anything more than lip service to civilised values

Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 5:10:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Yes... to derail or get closed yet another thread on this subject when the denier parroting propagandists are being handed their asses by the facts. Yes yes, anyone who thinks torturing children is okay is a denier parroting propagandist..... I think you will find calling anyone a denier breaks the TOS. I dont want the thread closed though, I am happy to keep posting facts backed by valid links, such as the vile sniper photo issue. I know thats hard for you to swallow but it did come from Haaretz.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 5:15:45 PM)
quote: You ran away when I asked you this question last time. I didn't run away. I dismissed your claim as drivel "so absurd and laughable, it's not even worthy of derision". See post # 89. quote: A rational approach to putting an end to these problems would be to honestly examine all the factors... why won't you? Your explanation - that the whole conflict is a Muslim Brotherhood plot to kill every Jew on the planet - didn't even mention the Palestinians. Are the Palestinians not a factor in the equation? If so, and they obviously are, why does your explanation fail to mention them? Is this what you mean when you talk about "honestly examin[ing] all the factors"? Now do you see why I dismiss your explanation as drivel? Unless you can come up with something more substantial than the utter crap you have served up to date, don't expect me to respond.

EdBowie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 5:19:10 PM)
The word I used for what the Israeli government is doing was 'atrocities'. But don't let that slow you down. And, good thing I've never called anyone a denier ( or a racist, or a jew hater) , I've made sure to identify the propaganda and the false statements themselves as matching the rhetoric used by deniers and to cite the source as David Irving. But, of course you already knew that when you came back with more fabricated personal attacks against the poster, instead of honestly addressing what I actually said... right? And as far as you being 'happy' to post links proving that my multiple links about the Holocaust, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. are lies... we're still waiting. Just like we are still waiting for those links proving that I stopped posting one day, and my 'sock puppet' started posting the very next day... ( or vice versa). Yep, still waiting for all your happy links. quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie Yes... to derail or get closed yet another thread on this subject when the denier parroting propagandists are being handed their asses by the facts. Yes yes, anyone who thinks torturing children is okay is a denier parroting propagandist..... I think you will find calling anyone a denier breaks the TOS. I dont want the thread closed though, I am happy to keep posting facts backed by valid links, such as the vile sniper photo issue. I know thats hard for you to swallow but it did come from Haaretz.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/15/2014 5:32:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 FR Fuck the Palestinians, they deserve everything that's ever been done to them. That's just simply not true. Governments do stupid crazy shit...ours...theirs...we pay people in Iowa NOT to grow corn, we pay people in Bahrain to hate people we don't like, we pay people in China to fuck over their own government and we pay people in NORTH fucking Korea to SUPPORT North Korea and we have agencies that thrill to kill North Koreans. It's fucked up. The Palestinians have mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. Uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters. And they think we're fucked up. We think they're fucked up. I just wish we could get everyone in the same gawdamned room and have a fucking hot dog and some raw lamb (or whatever the fuck they eat) and stop throwing daggers, money and hatred. (A man can dream).

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