RE: Israel still torturing children (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/21/2014 9:06:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A fence ? Dont you mean an illegal wall condemned by the UN and the ICJ in the Hague ?

"The International Court of Justice has said the barrier Israel is building to seal off the West Bank violates international law because it infringes on the rights of Palestinians. In an advisory opinion issued Friday in The Hague, the U.N. court urged the Israelis to remove it from occupied land. The nonbinding opinion also found that Israel was obligated to return confiscated land or make reparations for any destruction or damage to homes, businesses and farms caused by the barrier's construction."


I guess you missed the "non-binding" bit. Which means its just a bunch of blow-whole europeans offering their inconsequential opinion. Really? Who cares what the fuck the netherlands think. When you europeans can put your big boy pants on and do well - anything - maybe you'll have the right to say something.

In the meantime, I get that the UN doesn't really care that the fence has essentially eliminated israeli casualties by suicide bomber. And I wad it up and wipe my ass with it. Cause self defense is a fundamental right too.




Laughable bullshit that you think the ICJ is "Just a bunch of blow-whole Europeans." Care to guess why its also known as the World Court ?

Its a shame your bike ride around the Ruhr failed to teach you anything.

Anyhow, thanks for clarifying that you wipe your arse with actual facts.



Its called the world court because europeans want to think their opinions matter. Sometimes we throw you a bone.
Does china recognize it? No.
Does America recognize it? No.
Does Russia recognize it? No.

Good luck with that "world court" thing.




Tkman117 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/21/2014 9:50:28 AM)

Gotto love the arrogance on this guy, really makes me want to vote conservative, with all of their moral values and high and mighty opinions. They clearly know how to treat people with love and respect, don't they? [;)]




Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/21/2014 4:39:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Its called the world court because europeans want to think their opinions matter. Sometimes we throw you a bone.
Does china recognize it? No.
Does America recognize it? No.
Does Russia recognize it? No.

Good luck with that "world court" thing.


Lmfao....... Seriously funny shit Phydeaux.

America dont recognise it because it would curb some of your dubious Foreign Policies, such as the invasion into Iraq. You forget that you used to recognise it until criticised due to your dubious machinations in Nicaragua.

Funnier still is a committed anti-socialist using China and Russia as an example. Irony irony irony.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/21/2014 9:19:14 PM)

Actually the US did recognise the World Court until the Court dared to make a finding that criticised US policy in Nicaragua:
The ICJ held that the U.S. had violated international law by supporting the Contras in their rebellion against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The United States refused to participate in the proceedings after the Court rejected its argument that the ICJ lacked jurisdiction to hear the case. The U.S. later blocked enforcement of the judgment by the United Nations Security Council .... [] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

To the best of my knowledge Israel has never recognised the World Court. You don't have to be an Einstein to work out why. Israel flagrantly contravenes international law in so many areas* that a succession of adverse findings against Israel is the only realistic outcome

* To list a few : colonising ('settling') foreign land, extra-judicial assassinations, collective punishment of civilian populations, use of banned war materials eg white phosphorous, targeting civilian infrastructure (eg hospitals schools water supply and sewerage systems), treatment of minors, systematic violation of human rights, water rights etc, torture of minors and adults, ethnic cleansing, use of minors and civilians as human shields .... There are many many more.




Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/22/2014 11:47:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Its called the world court because europeans want to think their opinions matter. Sometimes we throw you a bone.
Does china recognize it? No.
Does America recognize it? No.
Does Russia recognize it? No.

Good luck with that "world court" thing.


Lmfao....... Seriously funny shit Phydeaux.

America dont recognise it because it would curb some of your dubious Foreign Policies, such as the invasion into Iraq. You forget that you used to recognise it until criticised due to your dubious machinations in Nicaragua.

Funnier still is a committed anti-socialist using China and Russia as an example. Irony irony irony.



Since all you have is irony, you confirm the accuracy of the statement.




Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/22/2014 4:08:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Since all you have is irony, you confirm the accuracy of the statement.


I confirm fuck all as all you have posted is the usual bullshit. It was, is and always will be known as the World Court or the ICJ.

I note you had little to say about the US signing up but failing to Ratify.






Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 1:39:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Since all you have is irony, you confirm the accuracy of the statement.


I confirm fuck all as all you have posted is the usual bullshit. It was, is and always will be known as the World Court or the ICJ.

I note you had little to say about the US signing up but failing to Ratify.



Thank God for advise and consent?




Phydeaux -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 1:40:59 PM)


The world's most ancient Christian communities are being destroyed — and no one cares Christians in the Middle East have been the victims of pogroms and persecution. Where's the outrage in the West? By Michael Brendan Dougherty | Egyptian Coptic Christians mourn during a mass funeral in 2011. (REUTERS/Amr Abdallah Dalsh) Like many Coptic Christians in Egypt, Ayman Nabil Labib had a tattoo of the cross on his wrist. And like 17-year-old men everywhere, he could be assertive about his identity. But in 2011, after Egypt's revolution, that kind of assertiveness could mean trouble.

Ayman's Arabic-language teacher told him to cover his tattoo in class. Instead of complying, the young man defiantly pulled out the cross that hung around his neck, making it visible. His teacher flew into a rage and began choking him, goading the young man's Muslim classmates by saying, "What are you going to do with him?"

Ayman's classmates then beat him to death. False statements were given to police, and two boys were taken into custody only after Ayman's terror-stricken family spoke out.

Ayman's suffering is not an isolated case in Egypt or the region.

The Arab Spring, and to a lesser extent the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, were touted as the catalysts for a major historic shift in the region. From Egypt to Syria to Iraq, the Middle East's dictatorships would be succeeded by liberal, democratic regimes. Years later, however, there is very little liberality or democracy to show. Indeed, what these upheavals have bequeathed to history is a baleful, and barely noticed legacy: The near-annihilation of the world's most ancient communities of Christians.

The persecution of Christians throughout the Middle East, as well as the silence with which it has been met in the West, are the subject of journalist Ed West's Kindle Single "The Silence of Our Friends." The booklet is a brisk and chilling litany of horrors: Discriminatory laws, mass graves, unofficial pogroms, and exile. The persecuted are not just Coptic and Nestorian Christians who have relatively few co-communicants in the West, but Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants as well.

Throughout the Middle East the pattern is the same. Christians are murdered in mob violence or by militant groups. Their churches are bombed, their shops destroyed, and their homes looted. Laws are passed making them second-class citizens, and the majority of them eventually leave.

In Egypt, a rumor that a Muslim girl was dating a Christian boy led to the burning of multiple churches, and the imposition of a curfew on a local Christian population. Illiterate children were held in police custody for urinating in a trash heap, because an imam claimed that pages quoting the Koran were in the pile and had been desecrated. Again, the persecution resulted in Christian families leaving their homes behind.

In Syria, the situation is even worse. In June 2013, a cluster of Christian villages was totally destroyed. Friar Pierbattista Pizzaballa reported that "of the 4,000 inhabitants of the village of Ghassanieh... no more than 10 people remain."

Two Syrian bishops have been kidnapped by rebel groups. Militants expelled 90 percent of the Christians in the city of Homs. Patriarch Gregorios III of Antioch says that out of a population of 1.75 million, 450,000 Syrian Christians have simply fled their homes in fear.

In Iraq, the story is the same but more dramatic. According to West, between 2004 and 2011 the population of Chaldo-Assyrian Christians fell from over a million to as few as 150,000. In 2006, Isoh Majeed, who advocated the creation of a safe haven for Christians around Nineveh, was murdered in his home. The number of churches in Iraq has declined to just 57, from 300 before the invasion. The decline of Iraq's Christian population since the first Gulf War is roughly 90 percent, with most of the drop occurring since the 2003 invasion.

The U.S. and the U.K. bear some responsibility in this catastrophe, since they oversaw the creation of Iraq's postwar government and did little to protect minority faiths.

West's book touches on the clueless and callous behavior of Western governments in these episodes. U.S. reconstruction aid to Iraq is distributed according to Iraqi laws that discriminate against Christian Iraqis. The U.S. pours billions of foreign aid into Egypt, and yet the Christians in that country are not allowed to build churches (or even so much as repair toilets in them) without explicit permission from the head of state, almost never granted. Last September, the U.S and Britain attempted to make their support of Syrian rebel groups explicit and overt, but at the same time some of these militias were executing a pogrom against Christians.

A Christian shopkeeper in Ma'loula summed it up in a quote to the BBC: "Tell the EU and the Americans that we sent you Saint Paul 2,000 years ago to take you from the darkness, and you sent us terrorists to kill us."

In an email to The Week, Ed West says there are things America and its allies can and should do to aid persecuted Christians:

Western countries should make clear that our friendship, cooperation, aid, and help depends on: 1) Religious freedom, which includes the right to change or leave religions; 2) A secular law that treats all people the same. That was not the case in Mubarak's Egypt, which the U.S. helped to prop up with $500 million a year. That is not the case in Iraq, which under U.S. control instigated sharia into its constitution. That shouldn't be acceptable. In 2022, Qatar will host the World Cup, a country where death for apostasy is still on the statute books. Why aren't we all boycotting it?
The last request does put the plight of Middle Eastern Christians in global context. Western activists and media have focused considerable outrage at Russia's laws against "homosexual propaganda" in the lead-up to the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics. It would only seem fitting that Westerners would also protest (or at the very least notice) laws that punish people with death for converting to Christianity.

And yet the Western world is largely ignorant of or untroubled by programmatic violence against Christians. Ed West, citing the French philosopher Regis Debray, distils the problem thusly: "The victims are 'too Christian' to excite the Left, and 'too foreign' to excite the Right."

Church leaders outside the Middle East are afraid to speak out, partly because they fear precipitating more violence. (Seven churches were fire-bombed in Iraq after Pope Benedict XVI quoted an ancient criticism of Islam in an academic speech in Germany.) Oddly, unlike Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Russia, the U.S. and the U.K. are the only powers acting in the Middle East that do not take any special interest in the safety of those with whom they have a historical religious affinity.

These are the lands in which Jesus' apostles and their disciples made some of the first Christian converts. In an interview, West pointed out that these communities "were Christian when our ancestors were worshipping trees and stones." Now they are in danger of imminent extinction.

In 2013, Raphael I Sako, the Chaldean Patriarch of Baghdad, said the following at his installation homily, "Still the shadow of fear, anxiety, and death is hanging over our people." He warned: "If emigration continues, God forbid, there will be no more Christians in the Middle East. It will be no more than a distant memory." West's book is a sobering reminder that Western policy has helped shape this grim fate for Middle Eastern Christians — and Western silence allows it to continue.

inShare.4477 Print Michael Brendan Dougherty Michael Brendan Dougherty is senior correspondent at TheWeek.com. He is the founder and editor of The Slurve, a newsletter about baseball. His work has appeared in The New York Times Magazine, ESPN Magazine, Slate and The American Conservative.

© 2014 THE WEEK Publications, Inc. All rights reserved. THE WEEK® is a registered trademark owned by Felix Dennis. THEWEEK.COM is a trademark owned by Felix Dennis.
.




Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 3:16:35 PM)

Oh good, so you finally agree the shit fest is partly down to Bush and Blair.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 3:58:26 PM)

Curiously Phydeaux's post omits any reference to Israel or Occupied Palestine, the subject of this thread. What is the position of Christians in Israel and Occupied Palestine? Paletinian Christians have made their positon perfectly clear in a document that has come to be known as the Palestine Kairos Document. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kairos_Palestine )

From wiki:
"The document contains the following explanation of its objectives: "As Palestinian Christians we hope that this document will provide the turning point to focus the efforts of all peace-loving peoples in the world, especially our Christian sisters and brothers. We hope also that it will be welcomed positively and will receive strong support. ... We believe that liberation from occupation is in the interest of all peoples in the region because the problem is not just a political one, but one in which human beings are destroyed."[6]
The document's drafters describe it as "the Christian Palestinians’ word to the world about what is happening in Palestine." They express a desire "to see the Glory of the grace of God in this land and in the sufferings of its people," and add that in this spirit they are calling on "the international community to stand by the Palestinian people who have faced oppression, displacement, suffering and clear apartheid for more than six decades." They call the document "a cry of hope, with love, prayer and faith in God," and say that it is addressed "first of all to ourselves and then to all the churches and Christians in the world, asking them to stand against injustice and apartheid, urging them to work for a just peace in our region, calling on them to revisit theologies that justify crimes perpetrated against our people and the dispossession of the land."
The document declares that the Occupation is a "sin against God" and that any theology that tolerates it cannot be Christian "because true Christian theology is a theology of love and solidarity with the oppressed, a call to justice and equality among peoples." It calls on all peoples to put pressure on Israel to put an end to its oppression and disregard for international law. It also describes non-violent resistance as a "duty" for all Palestinians, including Christians. And it charges against Israel with having launched a "cruel war" against Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009; with ravaging Palestinian land "in the name of God and in the name of force"; with separating family members, thus "making family life impossible for thousands of Palestinians, especially where one of the spouses does not have an Israeli identity card"; with restricting religious liberty for Christians and Muslims; with lack of consideration for refugees and prisoners; with turning "Jerusalem, city of reconciliation," into "a city of discrimination and exclusion, a source of struggle rather than peace"; and with holding "international law and international resolutions" in "contempt."
The document argues that an end to occupation is a precondition for an end to Palestinian resistance, not the other way around: "if there were no occupation, there would be no resistance, no fear and no insecurity." If Israelis end the occupation, "they will see a new world in which there is no fear, no threat but rather security, justice and peace." The document further rejects biblical arguments for Zionism as a perversion of "the love of God and His providence in the life of both peoples and individuals." It calls Palestinians' "connectedness to this land ... a natural right," not just "an ideological or a theological question" but "a matter of life and death." It describes "the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land" as "a sin against God and humanity" that "distorts the image of God." And it declares "that any theology, seemingly based on the Bible or on faith or on history, that legitimizes the occupation, is far from Christian teachings, because it calls for violence and holy war in the name of God Almighty, subordinating God to temporary human interests, and distorting the divine image in the human beings living under both political and theological injustice."
The document goes on to declare that "Love is the commandment of Christ our Lord to us" and that it means "seeing the face of God in every human being." Yet this "does not mean accepting evil or aggression on their part." Love, rather, "seeks to correct the evil and stop the aggression." Therefore, Christian love compels that the Israeli occupation of Palestine be resisted. While calling for "civil disobedience" and "respect of life," the document also "high esteem for all those who have given their life for our nation" and affirms the importance of citizens defending their "life, freedom and land." It endorses the BDS movement and rejects the idea of "a religious state" in the Holy Land.
(op. cit.)

So Palestinian Christians have made their position crystal clear - an immediate end to the Occupation, and immediate end to Israeli ethnic cleansing and apartheid, it calls the Occupation a "sin against God" and calls upon Christians throughout the world to support and participate in the Boycott of Isreal (BDS movement). The position of Palestine's Christians has been endorsed by the World Council of Churches (WCC)

Despite this explicit condemnation of Israeli policy by local Christians, many American Christians still labour under the false impression that Israel is an island of religious freedom and that Israel's Occupation is Biblically supported. Palestine's Christians support precisely the opposite view. Isn't it time for those American Christians to reconsider their position? Already many American churches have officially supported and/or joined in the BDS movement - isn't it time for all American churches to support their Palestinian brothers and sisters?




Politesub53 -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 4:12:39 PM)

Maybe he is trying to deflect from the issues raised in the OP.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 4:32:54 PM)

Indeedies.

A quick glance through the various posts made by people trying to justify, excuse or gloss over Israel's torture of children reveals a succession of attempts to deflect the charges rather any attempts to accept the charges at face value and discuss them as such.

Perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised by this. Israel's treatment of Palestinian kids is indefensible by any reasonable standard. It's only one aspect of the equally indefensible overall treatment of Palestinians forced to live under Israeli Occupation.




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/23/2014 5:30:50 PM)

Human Rights Watch presents evidence about the recent killings of two Palestinian youths by members of the notorious Givati Brigade of the IDF:
"A soldier shot Wajih al-Ramahi in the Jalazone refugee camp, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. The evidence obtained by Human Rights Watch is inconclusive as to whether al-Ramahi, who was shot in an area between the school and a market, had joined Palestinian youths nearby who were throwing stones toward the soldiers, but the soldiers were approximately 200 meters away and not at any risk of being hit by stones, the witnesses said.

“Twice this year, Israeli soldiers hiding near schools, apparently to make arrests, have killed children who posed no apparent threat,” said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “If the past is any guide, these boys’ families can look forward to a prolonged, opaque, and fruitless process that does not hold perpetrators to account or deliver justice.”

In January, Israeli forces who had concealed themselves next to a military fence not far from the boys’ school in the village of Budrus fatally shot Samir `Awad, 16, witnesses said. `Awad had entered an open military gate in the Israeli separation barrier. Soldiers appeared and shot `Awad as he tried to run away, witnesses said. They said that `Awad and other Palestinians in the area had not thrown stones or otherwise threatened the soldiers. The military has not claimed that they did."


A witness statement from one of the boys concerned states:
"Samir got scared and ran the wrong way through the gate. He tried to climb the [second] fence and one the four soldiers from the left-hand side shot him in the leg. He fell, got up, and came back through the gate toward the village. Another soldier grabbed him by the shoulder, but he got past and tried to run away toward the village. He was limping. One of [the soldiers] threw a sound bomb [flash-bang grenade], and then another soldier shot him in the back and the head. "

Full details can be found at the Human Rights Watch site: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/04/israel-no-evidence-boy-killed-soldiers-posed-any-threat?

In these killings it seems clear that the youths shot presented little or no threat to the IDF. One might wonder why the IDF lies in ambush near schools, where their presence might seem an un-necessary provocation. Shooting an already wounded youth "in the back and the head" seems to be prima facie little short of murder.

The IDF has killed about 1500 Palestinian minors since 2000. According to HRW, who obtained their info from the IDF, Israel has charged 16 security services members in relation to these deaths resulting in 6 convictions, the longest sentence imposed was seven months (yes seven months!). That's a conviction rate of approx 0.4% or to put it another way, the killers received no sanction - or if you prefer, escaped scot free - in 99.6% of these deaths.




SadistDave -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 12:50:46 AM)

There are 2 sides to every story...

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55&x_article=2598

-SD-




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 2:16:13 AM)

Leaving aside the fact that your source, CAMERA is a Zionist front organisation that has been described as ""a well-known source of extremist pro-Israel propaganda that is routinely challenged by Israeli and international human rights and peace organizations for its consistent misrepresentation of the facts in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMERA);
Leaving aside that stone throwing is not a capital crime and that youths who throw stones at the IDF do not deserve to be shot dead; and
Leaving aside the fact that the CAMERA comments only applied to one incident whereas my post detailed two separate instances of IDF killing Palestinian youths
There is nothing in either the Human Rights Watch or CAMERA analyses that states or infers that the dead youths were engaged in throwing rocks when they were killed, nor has the IDF claimed that the youths were throwing stones either. Both the HRW and CAMERA accounts state that the IDF opened fire without any warning or any of the usual crowd control techniques (eg tear gas, rubber bullets) being used.

Both accounts agree on all the major points of the HRW report - the CAMERA piece seems more interested in slurring one of the dead youth's family than attempting to exonerate the IDF. So I am wondering precisely what is the "other side of the story" you are referring to.




SadistDave -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 3:23:17 AM)

Motive, animus... if the boy viewed the IDF as a personal enemy because of his families criminal clashes with them then anything is possible.

After looking into this a bit it doesnt look like anyone has a clue about what actually took place. Considering the lack of press a d lack of outrage, my guess is that its not worth the effort to find out for either side. To me, that suggests that the "victim" was probably up to no good and got himself shot.

Considering the lack of evidence and verifiable facts, all anyone can do is speculate. I dont find the Palestinians claims credible under the circumstances.

-SD-




tweakabelle -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 5:58:53 AM)

So, there is no other side to the story and you are choosing to let your ideology dictate what you are going to regard as the 'truth', in spite of the evidence to the contrary. In this instance it seems that for you, your perception of "animus" is enough to justify a death sentence. Good luck with that. With an attitude like that, you will end up like Phydeaux, who admits to supporting the Israelis regardless of what they do.

You will excuse the rest of us being concerned with things like right and wrong and peace and justice, none of which exist on the Israeli agenda.




EdBowie -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 6:05:52 PM)

The only way that killing for peace works in the real world, is when there is not one single person left alive on the other side. You might be able to kill enough of 'them' to obtain a surrender, or change a government, or secure lands, but that won't be peace in any useful sense, it will simply create an insurgency.

'Right', 'wrong', and 'justice' are simply labels that people slap onto their killing.

And the propaganda merely dehumanizes the 'others' enough to make the killing palatable.

This goes for both sides, and this is why there won't be peace as long as there are cheerleaders who only spout polemic hatemongering.




quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

So, there is no other side to the story and you are choosing to let your ideology dictate what you are going to regard as the 'truth', in spite of the evidence to the contrary. In this instance it seems that for you, your perception of "animus" is enough to justify a death sentence. Good luck with that. With an attitude like that, you will end up like Phydeaux, who admits to supporting the Israelis regardless of what they do.

You will excuse the rest of us being concerned with things like right and wrong and peace and justice, none of which exist on the Israeli agenda.





MrBukani -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 6:21:35 PM)

Hamas Terrorists Killing Innocent Palestinians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xisp2gys6o

Let an arab do the talking.




MrBukani -> RE: Israel still torturing children (1/24/2014 6:29:08 PM)

Hamas using children as human shields

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQQFJXMrg4





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