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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 5:05:44 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

<snip>
Ok, I got what I wanted.. but.. why did I want it? And now that I have it (and have had it for 10+ years!) .. why do I want to know.. why?

Listen up, ladies.. this is what menopause is doing to me.. and it could happen to you, too! ::laughs::

OK, actual question time: For those of you who would also answer "hard-wired" when asked why you are a submissive/slave .. why are you hard-wired that way?

Celeste

I was reading this thread & a thought crossed my mind... do you think you might be topping out?

I have known quite a few women who have had this happen after years of dedicated service to their doms. They never attempted to top their respected dom but they actually admitted that they felt a shift in their wiring & submissive just didn't express the way they felt anymore. It all started when they began questioning & asking why?

Just a thought, like I said & something I have actually witnessed/known to happen.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 21

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 6:37:43 AM

hizgeorgiapeach

Posts: 1672
Status: offline

Well - I always knew I was a bit of a freak. That article on finger length simply confirmed it! Thanks heeps, Celeste! Guess I'll simply join the ongoing freak parade of the odd waves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I wanted someone to have the ability to 'take' from me and use it.. but without them changing 'me'. I wanted someone who I would trust with my life and my sanity. I wanted someone who had so much integrity, that there would never be a need for me to be limited in what I was willing to do for them and what they could do, at their whim, to me. I wanted someone who would recognize exactly how much power they would have over me and to use that power wisely and in such as a way as to ensure our mutual growth as people.

I wanted that as well, when I first started some 23 years ago. There's part of me that STILL wants that. I still have no clue, outside of how I was raised and what I saw between my folks, the answer to "why" I wanted that. I know I didn't Find that, and in the long run I gave up Expecting or even Hoping to find it. When I finally gave up on Hoping to find it - that's when I stepped away from power dynamics as an option for me, and learned to be content simply as a very kinky bottom.

quote:

Listen up, ladies.. this is what menopause is doing to me.. and it could happen to you, too! ::laughs::

Thanks for the warning - I'm already in the midst of pre-menopause and facing the same thing! LOL

quote:

OK, actual question time: For those of you who would also answer "hard-wired" when asked why you are a submissive/slave .. why are you hard-wired that way?

Before I gave up power dynamics completely, quit looking for a partner, quit hoping that I would eventually find that person who could do for me what your's does for you - I considered myself to be "hard wired" towards submission, specifically towards a strong male. I've never yet met a dominant female that "felt" .... More Dominant.... than I do myself. I've met a lot of females that I consider to be exceptional Tops who self identify as dominants. But I haven't met even one whose personality actually feels like a Dominant to me. Nope, not even the particularly butch lesbian dominant tops feel specifically like a dominant to me. I don't even do SM scening with other females, unless I'm in a Top capacity.

I attribute part of it to genetic hard wiring within females. Instinct, in the long run. Something that has been with us, and to a degree reinforced by various means, throughout the ages since the dawn of human kind. I put the rest of it down to how I was raised - in a fairly traditional gender role environment, watching my parents.. and both sets of grandparents... and all my extended relatives, the friends of my parents and grandparents, educators, etc... upholding such traditional gender roles as simply being Nature's Way. Until I was an adult taking part openly in alternatives, I never stopped to question whether it was actually Nature's Way, or simply what I had been taught as socially acceptable.

On the hormonal level prior to birth, mom had a Very rough pregnancy with me, stress wise. She'd been told to wait at least 5 years before having a second child, yet my brother was less than a year old when she got pregnant with me. (Something to do with Rh factors in the blood, and building up antibodies since my brother had O-neg. The drugs available now for that were just coming out of testing when she had him.) My biological father was abusive, and she was in the process of divorcing him while the pregnancy was going on. A huge stress inducer under any circumstances, even more so when you consider that it happened during the mid 60s when divorce was still not particularly acceptable - and when you consider she was living with her Southern Baptist parents who considered divorce to be one of the ultimate sins.

Oddly enough - while I love cooking (my kitchen is my lab) I HATE cleaning. I hate it so much, in fact, that I'm beyond anal about someone ELSE in my home making a mess. When I lived alone, I never had those "anal" moments about cleaning, because I simply didn't HAVE any messes to contend with outside my art studio. (And we won't talk about just how Much of a mess my studio typically was - I was usually to busy Creating while in there to even Notice the clutter, and about every 2 weeks, I'd realize I couldn't find the brush I was looking for and go on a massive cleaning jag.) If I had my druthers at this point in life, I'd likely live alone and far enough from the rest of society that I would only Have to deal with people if I really Wanted to deal with them.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 22

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 6:47:50 AM

diamonddreamlove

Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline

Definitely believe nature is the original culprit but think that something in life must trigger or open us up to submission. I believe there are a whole lot of folks out there with the same wiring but until the trigger happens for them they will never understand why vanilla just does not give the satisfaction that they wish for.

(in reply to talibahh)

Post #: 23

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 7:10:04 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis
...i have theories i've bounced with from there, i think my bi hard-wire is related to that hormonal flooding...Anyone else have clues from their mothers emotional state --> hormone wash that makes sense to them in this way?

Perhaps mom took some Dr. recommended, FDA approved dope to “ensure a healthy baby”?

This slave believes that any discussion of the effects of estrogen(naturally occurring or worse--synthetic) in utero should consider the research that has been done and the personal experiences of those of us who have lived to tell the tale….pregnant women who were given the recommended dosage of DES during the formation of their fetuses reproductive tract alone were given the equivalent of the estrogenic effect of 55,666 birth control pills. Many women took it for the entirety of their pregnancy, jacking that number up considerably.

quote:

DES is a synthetic estrogen that was used during early pregnancy in women with a history of miscarriage and hyperemesis. Exposure of female fetuses before gestational week 9 resulted in a 70% incidence of vaginal adenosis among female offspring. In these women, reproductive tract malformation is very common and distinctive. Findings include cervical hoods and combs, a T-shaped uterus, a shortened vagina, and cervical stenosis. Reproductive capability is markedly reduced in these women. The United States has approximately 250,000-1,000,000 DES daughters. An estimated 1 in 1000 DES-exposed daughters develops vaginal clear cell adenocarcinoma, a formerly rare cancer previously observed in women aged 70 years and older. DES sons have an increased rate of cryptorchidism, epididymal cysts, and hypoplastic testes, but they do not have decreased fertility. DES was removed from the market in 1971… orig: http://www.medceu.com/course-no-test.cfm?CID=1295

It has been suggested that the endocrine systems and reproductive tract are not the only things affected by these estrogens. Studies have been done, linking the excess synthetic estrogen in-utero to same-sex sexual attraction later in the adults that survived. It doesn’t account for this slave’s deep and abiding attraction to members of the OPPOSITE sex, but it DOES account for the physical and also the emotional affects of excessive estrogen this slave has experienced for over 20 years.

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 24

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 7:16:03 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

You could say that the way I was raised and the dynamics that I was surrounded by definitely contributed to who I am. In my earliest memories though, before I understood what was happening around me...this is simply who I was, so I believe that I was born this way. As to the why....well I've come to believe that I'm just the way I'm supposed to be in the grand scheme of things. I believe that there is a Master plan...and I believe that nothing happens purely by accident. So therefore, however I am....it is exactly as it was intended.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 25

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 8:17:14 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

I was reading this thread & a thought crossed my mind... do you think you might be topping out?

Anything is possible, but I think it's unlikely as this is a question I've been asking myself pretty much since I began thinking. I've been an S/m switch for several years, but the part of me which is service oriented, which craves that power exchange is pretty much as it always was. The difference is now I'm menopausal and have come full circle and back to one of the questions that I could never answer to my own satisfaction.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 26

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 9:44:33 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Isn't that like asking why brunettes have brown hair? It's just the way people are born.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

OK, actual question time: For those of you who would also answer "hard-wired" when asked why you are a submissive/slave .. why are you hard-wired that way?

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 27

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 10:56:22 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

Am wondering for my case, if birth order has anything to do with it, being a middle child. But then both myself and my twin sister as very service oriented and submissive. This is a really interesting question Celeste.

In comparing my twin sister and i, though i am way kinkier (due i think in part to a childhood experience that i lived through that she didn't) we are both givers, service oriented, caretakers and submissive.

Part of it is the environment in which we were raised both spiritually (raised to believe in wives being submissive to their husbands) (i know not all agree with that statement, as i have an older sister that is a Domme, so please don't flame me on that belief.) and societally (standard 50's household). But as i stated i have an older sister who is a Domme raised in the same household taught the same belief structure so i am wondering in my twin sister and my case, if birth order is having any kind of effect.

Just a thought.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 28

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 11:27:23 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

Isn't that like asking why brunettes have brown hair?

Nope, nothing even remotely close to that question. Thanks for trying though.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 29

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 2:28:39 PM

babysburnin

Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
Status: offline

Celeste...

One of my on-line mentors...you are cracking me up. I think it boils down plain and simple to "security" and "nuturing". I'm a pro at providing security and nuturing to friends, family, co-workers, etc. But what do I need to be given that? I need someone to take a step up (Dominant) and me to allow it (submission).

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)

Post #: 30

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 3:12:52 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Then what exactly does "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" mean? I really don't understand what you're asking. "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" is like asking why leaves are green, why the sky is blue, or why the earth revolves around the sun. There's obviously some kind of misunderstanding here. Maybe we don't understand the word "hardwired" in the same way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

Isn't that like asking why brunettes have brown hair?

Nope, nothing even remotely close to that question. Thanks for trying though.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 31

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 3:31:43 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

Is it nature or nurture that I am submissive? Don't know. Genetics play a part, I'm sure. My mother is submissive and my father dominant, but they aren't kinky....as far as I know. (DON'T want to know that!). My adult progeny are both Domme. I can understand nurture teaching me to be submissive, that makes sense. I can understand nurture tweaking my saplings toward dominance.

When it comes right down to it, how would human kind have existed as long as we have without *someone* willing to submit and care for everyone? There needed to be followers as well as leaders to get the community working correctly so the entire tribe would survive. That makes sense to me.

As far as cooking and cleaning. I HATE cleaning. I only do it when things get so deep even I can't wade through it. But I LOVE cooking. I know the cooking gene is genetic in my family. All of my siblings also cook. So do my cousins. So do my cousin's kids. So do my cousin's grandkids. So do my nieces and nephews. It's part of our family genome. (But my sister loves to clean so I like to say I got the cooking gene and she got the cleaning gene.)

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 32

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 3:50:36 PM

iliv2servher

Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline

An excellent question, but I don't believe that any one person has the answer. It may very well be that the it is different for some than for others. If you are spiritual and believe in reincarnation, one explanation can be that our predisposition to this came from a previous life or past-life experience. If you understand genetics, this behavior could be linked to a relative in the genetic chain. And finally, it may have been brought on by something that you learned in early childhood. A combination of all of these factors could very well play a part in your psychological makeup, but there is no clinical evidence to support this theory.

All of us is this lifestyle have to make peace with who we are and simply accept it for what it is.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 33

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 4:07:41 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

I was writing an email to someone the other day, started going off on a tangent about what being submissive, a slave means to me...I don't think I have ever before found the words that so adequately described what it means to me....I kinda sat back and thought..yeah..that really fits.

Maybe this wont mean anything to anyone else but me..but here is how I described it. I've edited out some parts:

"I wonder sometimes what is my real connection to bdsm and Master/slave relationship. I don't think my spirit is a slave, so I cant say its the core of by beingness to be a slave like some people do, yet the surrendering part..the giving over.... is totally akin with my spirit. I sometimes think when I respond to topics I must sound contradictory, but the reality is..how I'm gonna express what it does for me, what it is to me, is going to be dependent on where I'm at on any particular day. There is one constant though, the surrender I so desire with my partner. I guess that would only make me a slave if my partner was a slave, through surrendering to him, I would be trapped in the cage of his consciousness.
If Master is free, what else would I be surrendering to but freedom? In that case, I become enslaved to again be freed, my side step into slavery allows me to have a relationship here in this world."

I'm hardwired to surrender.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 34

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 4:20:18 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Then what exactly does "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" mean? I really don't understand what you're asking. "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" is like asking why leaves are green, why the sky is blue, or why the earth revolves around the sun. There's obviously some kind of misunderstanding here. Maybe we don't understand the word "hardwired" in the same way.

Leaves are green because of photosynthesis and chlorophyll. Hair is brown because of genetics. The sky is blue because the sun's rays hit the
Earth's atmosphere, where the light is scattered by nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the air. The blue wavelength of this light is affected more than the red and green wavelengths, causing the surrounding air to appear blue. The Earth revolves around the sun because...

Well, I think you get the picture..

Those are all questions of science and can be answered with a google search or you can just click the link below.

http://www.ask.com

I asked this question of submissives who believe they are 'hard-wired' and it's not surprising to me that someone who isn't hard-wired to submission doesn't understand the question and since it's crystal clear to me, I'm not sure I can explain it so that you can understand it. The people for whom the question was meant may not be able to answer it, but they do understand it. I don't know what else to tell you.

The easiest answer is.. "you just are" so accept it.

The only trouble I ever had in mathematics was understanding irrational number and my professor also said.. "You'll just have to accept it, Celeste."

Sometimes I have a hard time accepting things that make no sense to me.. but I have no choice in the matter either.

One day, maybe I can google my question and get an answer. Right now, all I can do is ask for the opinions of other submissives, so that's what I did.

There is a reason I didn't ask this question in General BDSM or the Ask a Master forum.. I figured it would confuse most everyone.. except other submissives. ::chuckles::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 35

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 5:18:16 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I asked this question of submissives who believe they are 'hard-wired' and it's not surprising to me that someone who isn't hard-wired to submission doesn't understand the question and since it's crystal clear to me, I'm not sure I can explain it so that you can understand it. The people for whom the question was meant may not be able to answer it, but they do understand it. I don't know what else to tell you.

It worries me a little that I "get" the question.......

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 36

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 5:29:59 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

It worries me a little that I "get" the question.......

Curious. Why does it worry you? I mean you don't 'have' to be hard-wired to 'get' the question and you are a submissive. I'd love to talk to you in person about it. Think you can make the July 15th munch? Let me know.. I'll email you the details.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 37

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 5:41:24 PM

babysburnin

Posts: 421
Joined: 2/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

"I wonder sometimes what is my real connection to bdsm and Master/slave relationship. I don't think my spirit is a slave, so I cant say its the core of by beingness to be a slave like some people do, yet the surrendering part..the giving over.... is totally akin with my spirit.

That's what makes you submissive...it's akin with your spirit. Your spirit is not assaulted by it, but pleased by it. Not to get all "California hippy" on you (I'm from the east coast originally), but I do believe it's an old soul who can be submissive... not needing dominance is a great strength.

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 38

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 6:20:44 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

OK, actual question time: For those of you who would also answer "hard-wired" when asked why you are a submissive/slave .. why are you hard-wired that way?

Celeste

Genetics??

Gawd, I wish I knew...but then again if I knew, it would end the all-engrossing conversations I keep having with other lifestyle folks about this very matter. LOL

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 39

RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/5/2006 6:30:55 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I'm not "confused" by your question and don't get why you've taken a borderline (or more than borderline) pissy attitude about this. If I'm confused about anything, it's why you're making this question more complicated than it really is. You answered it yourself: it's just the way it is, accept it. Telling me that leaves are green because of chlorophyll doesn't answer the question. Why do we perceive chlorophyll as green? We just do. I think the answer to your question about why people are hardwired is in the same category as why we perceive leaves as green.

That's what "hardwired" means, after all. It means that it's in the wiring, and you can't change it. Maybe you mean something different by "hardwired," and maybe that's where the confusion is coming from. Or maybe, frankly, the confusion is on YOUR end, because anyone who didn't know you better would read what you just wrote and say to himself, "Now there is a submissive who is having a hard time accepting what she is..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Then what exactly does "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" mean? I really don't understand what you're asking. "Why are you hardwired as a submissive" is like asking why leaves are green, why the sky is blue, or why the earth revolves around the sun. There's obviously some kind of misunderstanding here. Maybe we don't understand the word "hardwired" in the same way.

Leaves are green because of photosynthesis and chlorophyll. Hair is brown because of genetics. The sky is blue because the sun's rays hit the
Earth's atmosphere, where the light is scattered by nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the air. The blue wavelength of this light is affected more than the red and green wavelengths, causing the surrounding air to appear blue. The Earth revolves around the sun because...

Well, I think you get the picture..

Those are all questions of science and can be answered with a google search or you can just click the link below.

http://www.ask.com

I asked this question of submissives who believe they are 'hard-wired' and it's not surprising to me that someone who isn't hard-wired to submission doesn't understand the question and since it's crystal clear to me, I'm not sure I can explain it so that you can understand it. The people for whom the question was meant may not be able to answer it, but they do understand it. I don't know what else to tell you.

The easiest answer is.. "you just are" so accept it.

The only trouble I ever had in mathematics was understanding irrational number and my professor also said.. "You'll just have to accept it, Celeste."

Sometimes I have a hard time accepting things that make no sense to me.. but I have no choice in the matter either.

One day, maybe I can google my question and get an answer. Right now, all I can do is ask for the opinions of other submissives, so that's what I did.

There is a reason I didn't ask this question in General BDSM or the Ask a Master forum.. I figured it would confuse most everyone.. except other submissives. ::chuckles::

Celeste

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 40

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