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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/6/2006 10:03:21 AM   
eroticangel


Posts: 272
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		i get it too....and i think it is just how we are born...i don't think genetics have anything to do with it...i think it is, as someone else said, in the master plan...we all are born to a certain path...and this is ours...we accept it because it is...we need to submit to be complete.....it's our nature to want to nurture.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/6/2006 11:21:45 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eroticangel

i get it too....and i think it is just how we are born...i don't think genetics have anything to do with it...i think it is, as someone else said, in the master plan...we all are born to a certain path...and this is ours...we accept it because it is...we need to submit to be complete.....it's our nature to want to nurture.


This idea of being born dominant or submissive (or anything else) because of Predestiny is something that I, for one, simply cannot accept as a legitimate answer - much less a Definitive answer.
 
Humanity is gifted (cursed?) with Free Will - the ability to think, weigh things, and come to our own decisions and then act (or not) upon those decisions.  The concept of Predestiny is completely at odds with Free Will.  Logically, the two are diametrically opposed and cannot coexist - either I make my own choices, act upon them, and that sets consequences in action which I am then free to respond to according to my own free will...... or..... I am predestined in my path, and everything I do "freely" is merely an illusion, I didn't actually MAKE any decisions (none of us did, regardless of orientation) and I'm simply a tiny puppet on some galactic string.  If you accept that "X" is predestined to happen, then everything that led up to it and everything that springs from it must also be predestined - else you never reach X to begin with.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to eroticangel)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/9/2006 11:48:27 PM   
violetraven


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline 		I don't know how many of us have submisive mothers but I am pretty sure my mother was.  I know she was abused in the relationship and I know my father marked her.  So wonder how much of this we picked up as unspoken learned behaviors.  My father died when I was very young but I know he was a very domaneering man.
Marj

(in reply to talibahh)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/10/2006 12:03:36 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I know in my family, the females have always been the dominant parties.  Though Mom and Dad would hardly understand or accept the lifestyle, persay, Mom is one of the most dominant people I have ever run across. Granted living with her now is causing a lot of issues becasue of how I am... but you learn to deal grin and bear it.  I dont necessarily believe she is the reasno I am a domme, my personality fits the lifestyle well. However, im sure if I were not from a family where it was perfectly normal for the woman to be the leader more often than not, I would never have accepted my role so easily.

DV 

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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/10/2006 12:10:03 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I really don't believe we have free will when it comes to matters like sexual preference.  You might have the freedom to decide whether to ACT on those preferences, but I don't believe you can choose to be vanilla, dom, sub, gay, or whatever.  You just are.  I really see it as the equivalent of having brown hair.  Most of our attitudes about sexuality in this country are colored by Christianity (like yours, I'd guess), and I don't think Christianity has offered a very persuasive account of human sexual preference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

This idea of being born dominant or submissive (or anything else) because of Predestiny is something that I, for one, simply cannot accept as a legitimate answer - much less a Definitive answer.
 
Humanity is gifted (cursed?) with Free Will - the ability to think, weigh things, and come to our own decisions and then act (or not) upon those decisions.  The concept of Predestiny is completely at odds with Free Will.  Logically, the two are diametrically opposed and cannot coexist - either I make my own choices, act upon them, and that sets consequences in action which I am then free to respond to according to my own free will...... or..... I am predestined in my path, and everything I do "freely" is merely an illusion, I didn't actually MAKE any decisions (none of us did, regardless of orientation) and I'm simply a tiny puppet on some galactic string.  If you accept that "X" is predestined to happen, then everything that led up to it and everything that springs from it must also be predestined - else you never reach X to begin with.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/10/2006 8:31:19 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		Actually, I'm not a  christian.  While I grew up in a predominantly christian family, I was encouraged to study a wide variety of religious/spiritual views and come to my own conclusions.  I follow a very self directed course which includes elements of several spiritual systems, ranging from Buddism to Native American Animism to Wicca to Christianity.  In many of their most important aspects, a great many spiritual systems are not nearly as much in disagreement at their core as they are in intepretation.  (Granted, my deep water double dipped baptist grandmother didn't like it - but as far as she's concerned, if it's fun it Must be a SIN.  There's a reason I refuse to associate with her.)
 
It has little to do with sexuality, or spirituality, much to do with simple Logic.  (Curses to those courses in logic, philosophy, and science that I took all those years in highschool and college.)  Genetics can only account for so much, however it is not potential Genetic factors that I am in contention with.  Take a closer look at my final comment on the prior post, LaM.  
 
quote:
 If you accept that "X" is predestined to happen, then everything that led up to it and everything that springs from it must also be predestined - else you never reach X to begin with.

 
Even the contention you brought up that Acting upon something is still within one's own pervue, when they're "born" a certain way, does not contradict this.  The choice to act or not act is either Free Will or Predestiny.  If you are a proponent of Predestiny (as opposed to simple Genetics - there IS a huge difference, as one is a spiritual matter while the other is not) then even the Choice of "act or don't act" is predestined - you were going to do that regardless of all other factors, and it's guided by something other than yourself. 
 
 

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/10/2006 10:13:38 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I understand what you're saying and don't think you need to sort through the quagmire of free will vs. predestination in order to believe, as I do, that people cannot determine their sexual preferences.  In other words, even if you grant a certain notion of free will, I don't believe it makes sense to extend this to say that we can freely choose our sexual preferences (any more than we can choose our hair color); by the same token, the fact that we cannot choose our sexual preferences does not mean that there is no free will in the world.  (On the free will issue, I'm a compatibilist, so I don't really think there is a contradiction between free will and determinism, but that is exactly the debate I didn't want to get into.)

Christians tend to believe that homosexuals freely choose to be homosexual, and therefore willfully violate the wishes of God.  I don't find that a very persuasive account of homosexuality and homosexual behavior (which, again, are not the same thing).  If you're not a Christian, very well, you're not a Christian, but bringing free will into the question of sexual preferences is a typically Christian rhetorical strategy.  That's what prompted my comment about Christianity.

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/10/2006 12:06:35 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Christians tend to believe that homosexuals freely choose to be homosexual, and therefore willfully violate the wishes of God.  I don't find that a very persuasive account of homosexuality and homosexual behavior (which, again, are not the same thing).  If you're not a Christian, very well, you're not a Christian, but bringing free will into the question of sexual preferences is a typically Christian rhetorical strategy.  That's what prompted my comment about Christianity.


I can see where, from that specific line of reasoning, you might come to such a conclusion.  We're definately agreed that it's very lacking in persuasiveness concerning gender orientation or behaviors linked to gender orientation.  I've actually heard more pound-n-thumpers use predestiny as a rhetorical line "I'm what I am because GAWD WILLS IT" than I've heard argue otherwise.  Although, when I stopped to think about it just now, I hear the same people actually using BOTH lines - dependant upon who's actions/life they're attempting to either justify or criticize.  If it's their own actions, they scream predestiny.  If it's someone else's actions, they scream free will and "bucking a higher order."
 
It was, in fact, that "bucking a higher order" aspect of predestiny that I was objecting to from the posts that brought it up originally.  While I will contend that there is a high probability that genetics does, indeed, have at least Something to do with sexual preference - I do not in any way believe that any "higher power" ordered those genetic factors, or the actions/inactions subsequently taken Because of those genetic factors.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/11/2006 2:13:40 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		i don't want to hijack a thread, but i would like to stick a note in here while the topic of Christians, free-will and predestiny are under discussion.

i am a "fundie", those fundamentalist christians that we lifestylers are always bothered by.  i want to let people know that you only hear and see those kinds because the rest of us are busy keeping our eyes on our own papers.   We don't all "despise the uncorrected masses" and all that garbage.

Who knows, maybe we're predestined to exercise our free-wills.  That'll make your head swim to suss that out!  lol.

My feeling about God and other peoples behavior is sort of like Masters. On the one occasion i have asked Him about His wife and sub's allowances and practices, His reply was "Keep your eyes on your own paper.  she is my sub, you are my slave, you have different roles and expectations of MY choosing, and it's no concern to you. If you have time to worry about that, I'm not keeping you busy enough.."  He's quite right..  and for all i know God has that same view of my asking what is right for others.  Heck, i'm not always sure what is right for me.

i hope many of the lifestylers here will encounter other believers who let God be God and make wonderful friendships with people without spreading the "you should do this or that" line. 

Back to the original thread topic. :) 

(in reply to hizgeorgiapeach)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/11/2006 7:55:45 PM   
Tapestry


Posts: 226
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: offline 		Mavis, I absolutely adore your explanation!  And yes, I've always felt that God wanted me to worry more about myself and less about others.  And when some I know get up on their high horses and berate the terrible sinners down below, I've always reminded them that the God I worship is a God of Love.  Not a God of punishment.  We're very capable of bringing bad things upon ourselves, God doesn't actually have to facillitate it!
 
So yes, keep your eyes on your own paper, and I'll do the same.  Thanks for sharing!

ok - NOW back to the originally scheduled thread! 

_____________________________

Tapestry

Daddy's Little Girl

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away."

www.tapestry41.blogspot.com

(in reply to Mavis)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 8:18:01 AM   
wizofos


Posts: 12
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline 		Ladies, I was surfing the discussion groups and saw this thread and have been enjoying it. This is a subject that I have pondered and tried to discuss with people for some time.
One question that I have......Don't you have anything else to do at 2 am? Ever consider sleep?

Anyway what I wanted to add was that I have thought that everyone has a certain amount of dominance and submission in them. If you watch any social animal you will see this in action and in a flock of birds it it called a pecking order. You see it in herd animals where the dominant males only mate with the females and in wolves you see it where only the Alpha Male and Alpha Female mate.
Anyway if you could measure and assign a dominance/submissive quotient as a number and put that on a scale of 0-100 I believe that we would find that it would probably follow the classic bell curve with extreme dominants and extreme submissives and most in the middle around the 50% point. I suspect that the extreme submissives would be nonfunctional without someone to direct their day to day activities and the extreme dominants would either be sociopathic or extreme outsiders such as the Mountain Men of the early American west. Totally independent individualists.
If you put a group of people in any situation some one of them will become the Alpha and the rest will fall in line down to the last one that just follows directions and does what they are told.

Now one question that I have is .......
Where do you place the person that spends 30 years screwing lug nuts on the left front wheels of cars on an assembly line?

So this comes to the original question....Hard wired? You are asking the question that has bothered scientists for many years. Nature or Nurture?

If this behaviour pattern is observed in other species should we be looking closer at Nature?
Is submission a survival trait where the female submits to the dominant male to propagate the species?
OR
Is submission for some just a way to 'dump' the stress of decision making and dealing with the day to day world on someone
else and they are willing to 'pay' for that service ??

One of those things that make you go Hmmmmmmm

(in reply to talibahh)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 8:45:14 AM   
hisforever


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		I believe it is both nature and nurture that has made me the way I am.  I know I am hard wired this way, but why....combo of mommies hormones and my father being the way he was all my life.  Very interesting question that is making my brain hurt, heres another one.  Scientists believe they can see to the end of the universe and the beginning of time, ok, but what was before that, and after that?  Whats beyond the universe?  What was here before our begining of time?  It cant really be the begining of time can it?  There had to be more right?  If there was nothing in our universe before the first star nurseries, then what started them?  Do not even get me started on the strand theory, that just messes me up bigtime.  Sorry, that was a tangent but you made my brain hurt lol now I will make yours hurt more!! muah ha ha!!!

(in reply to wizofos)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 9:14:30 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hisforever

I believe it is both nature and nurture that has made me the way I am.  I know I am hard wired this way, but why....combo of mommies hormones and my father being the way he was all my life.  Very interesting question that is making my brain hurt, heres another one.  Scientists believe they can see to the end of the universe and the beginning of time, ok, but what was before that, and after that?  Whats beyond the universe?  What was here before our begining of time?  It cant really be the begining of time can it?  There had to be more right?  If there was nothing in our universe before the first star nurseries, then what started them?  Do not even get me started on the strand theory, that just messes me up bigtime.  Sorry, that was a tangent but you made my brain hurt lol now I will make yours hurt more!! muah ha ha!!!


Here's another question to help hurt the brain.
WILKINSON MICROWAVE
ANISOTROPY PROBE (WMAP)  "The Inflationary Theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that density is very close to the critical density, producing a flat universe, like a sheet of paper. WMAP has determined, within the limits of instrument error, that the universe is flat." 
So, if the universe is flat, what's above it.. and what's below?

::chuckles and goes back to her 'why am I hard-wired this way research':: It's easier! ::laughs::

WMAP Cosmology 101: Shape of the Universe Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 7/12/2006 9:15:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 9:33:43 AM   
hisforever


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		ahhhhhhhhhh....crap, ouchy LOL

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 11:00:22 AM   
wizofos


Posts: 12
Joined: 6/6/2006
Status: offline 		In the end it really does not matter as long as you accept yourself and are happy. So the question is ....
Are you happy?
If you are then keep doing what ever it is that is working.
If you are not happy, then do something about it or find someone that will make you happy or help you be happy.

Or you can blame it on god, the devil or just wait until your next incarnation and sit around contemplating why you are what you are and why you are happy.

(in reply to hisforever)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 12:50:14 PM   
Tapestry


Posts: 226
Joined: 10/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wizofos

Ladies, I was surfing the discussion groups and saw this thread and have been enjoying it. This is a subject that I have pondered and tried to discuss with people for some time.
One question that I have......Don't you have anything else to do at 2 am? Ever consider sleep?

*edit*
One of those things that make you go Hmmmmmmm


Ok, well I just want to know how much Master paid you to say that! lol
You know, sleeping is way over-rated anyway

_____________________________

Tapestry

Daddy's Little Girl

"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away."

www.tapestry41.blogspot.com

(in reply to wizofos)
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RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 12:56:32 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Seeking knowledge of self brings me pleasure, especially when I make a new discovery or see things in a different light.

So, yes, in the end it matters... to me. If I never asked myself 'why,' I would be where I was when I was five.. satisfied and happy and only knowing those things which I picked up by chance rather than by study due to curiosity of how things work in the world, relationships and life in general. I prefer to know rather than not know. YMMV


Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to wizofos)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Hard-wired why, why why! - 7/12/2006 6:35:09 PM   
hisforever


Posts: 81
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		well said Celeste!  I often have to explain why I am so inquisitive to my Husband.  I think at times he finds my curiosity annoying LOL  He is very sweet to me and indulges my interest in the science channel even though I know it must be pure torture for him. LOL

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 78
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