RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge

RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 11:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: It is not an evasive tactic, it is merely turning the discussion to where it should be. It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God. You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer. Thanks for playing [8\|] He may not play - but I will be happy to. How can you reconcile a belief in loving nurturing parents when evil happens to children? Simple. They are unrelated.

PeonForHer -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 11:32:06 AM)
Parents aren't omnipotent - if they were, presumably no evil would happen to their children. But God is. Or not, in your conception?

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 11:46:30 AM)
The whole point (as pointed out pages ago) of having a deity that is transcendent and immanent, is that it allows for any and all conceivable scenarios to exist simultaneously. in that framework, God can easily create a universe that is only 6,000 years old, which has in it things that are trillions of years old. God can easily order his faithful to kill their own children, and at the same time hold no responsibility for their 'free will' choice to obey. '...surpasseth human understanding', is what makes the whole con work. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Parents aren't omnipotent - if they were, presumably no evil would happen to their children. But God is. Or not, in your conception?

PeonForHer -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 11:56:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie The whole point (as pointed out pages ago) of having a deity that is transcendent and immanent, is that it allows for any and all conceivable scenarios to exist simultaneously. in that framework, God can easily create a universe that is only 6,000 years old, which has in it things that are trillions of years old. God can easily order his faithful to kill their own children, and at the same time hold no responsibility for their 'free will' choice to obey. '...surpasseth human understanding', is what makes the whole con work. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Parents aren't omnipotent - if they were, presumably no evil would happen to their children. But God is. Or not, in your conception? I'm not sure that gets us anywhere, Ed. People want to know that God is always good, as well as omnipotent (and omniscient) and that's a quandary that humans have been trying to work out for two thousand years. It seems you're invoking the idea of 'God is paradoxical'. But if he's paradoxical - why shouldn't we humans be, too?

EdBowie -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 12:05:55 PM)
I'm not invoking any idea, I'm citing centuries of priests, when asked about paradoxes (Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?), or flat out contradictory evidence, like heliocentricity. And I disagree that people want a 'good' God, many of them want a God that will kick ass on the heathens, and favor the faithful. Check out Mark Twain's 'Secret prayers of The Heart'. And whether God was created a paradox by the human mind, or the human mind is created by a paradoxical god, is more like 2 unanswerable questions than an either/or one. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie The whole point (as pointed out pages ago) of having a deity that is transcendent and immanent, is that it allows for any and all conceivable scenarios to exist simultaneously. in that framework, God can easily create a universe that is only 6,000 years old, which has in it things that are trillions of years old. God can easily order his faithful to kill their own children, and at the same time hold no responsibility for their 'free will' choice to obey. '...surpasseth human understanding', is what makes the whole con work. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Parents aren't omnipotent - if they were, presumably no evil would happen to their children. But God is. Or not, in your conception? I'm not sure that gets us anywhere, Ed. People want to know that God is always good, as well as omnipotent (and omniscient) and that's a quandary that humans have been trying to work out for two thousand years. It seems you're invoking the idea of 'God is paradoxical'. But if he's paradoxical - why shouldn't we humans be, too?

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 1:29:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles The thing is if you didn't care one way or the other, you probably wouldn't be in this discussion and probably wouldn't have any reason to be conversant with this subject. Just saying. ;-) I have a bit of a debate fetish. Well then, that explains everything. ;-)

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 1:30:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles The thing is if you didn't care one way or the other, you probably wouldn't be in this discussion and probably wouldn't have any reason to be conversant with this subject. Just saying. ;-) I have a bit of a debate fetish. [:D] Don't we all? I'm busted! ;-)

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 2:04:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML However, the question put to me was: what if there were no god? What then? Things would be exactly the way they are now.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 5:17:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer. Thanks for playing [8\|] Mankind basically told God to leave them alone and that is what he is doing and now you call God a "merciless, mean and or impotent old dude" for doing exactly what mankind asked him to do. Which is why I said; "It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God." Thanks for playing ;-)

Rule -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 5:46:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Parents aren't omnipotent ... But God is. Or not, in your conception? The Divine is omnipotent only within limits: 1. It cannot break its own rules, for that would be false play and fraudulent. 2. It cannot do the impossible. For example, when walking in the Sahara desert one might wish to meet an ice-bear, but ordinarily that would be impossible, so the Divine cannot provide that person with that opportunity.

PeonForHer -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 5:59:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: EdBowie quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Parents aren't omnipotent ... But God is. Or not, in your conception? The Divine is omnipotent only within limits: 1. It cannot break its own rules, for that would be false play and fraudulent. 2. It cannot do the impossible. For example, when walking in the Sahara desert one might wish to meet an ice-bear, but ordinarily that would be impossible, so the Divine cannot provide that person with that opportunity. Where do you get that stuff, Rule? I'm not suggesting you're making it up (though you might just as well - countless others have done over the millennia) - but I've heard these 'rules for God to follow' over the years and always been somewhat surprised by them. I thought The Big Bearded Charlton Heston Lookalike in the Sky could do whatever he wanted. Another one I heard, by the way, is that God cannot tempt. The Nasty One can do that, but not the Good Guy.

Kirata -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 7:41:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I thought The Big Bearded Charlton Heston Lookalike in the Sky could do whatever he wanted. While an omniscient and omnipotent being is capable of anything and everything by definition, the question remains as to whether such a being would be of a kind that would actually do literally anything and everything. K.

Kirata -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 9:27:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Oh gosh, am I not allowed some self-serving froth? Must I be as humble as Kirata? [:D] It's always a good sign when the best someone has to offer is defensive little comments on my personality. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Enhancing life seems a worthy goal in a godless world. Do you object? Why? Please be precise. Not so fast. It "seems" is not even an answer to my question, let alone anything resembling a precise one. K.

Rule -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 2:50:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Enhancing life seems a worthy goal in a godless world. Do you object? Why? Please be precise. There are plenty of people on my to kill list, either for reason of compassion, or revenge or because my gene pool would be improved by it, or just because I feel like it. [sm=blasted.gif][sm=axe.gif] [sm=pushed.gif][sm=ubanana.gif]

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 7:35:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer. Thanks for playing [8\|] His answer is to abandon reality for Jesus: quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise Okay I will.

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 8:11:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'm not sure that gets us anywhere, Ed. People want to know that God is always good... Trying to paint the literal god of the bible as good is ridiculous. In that book the character spends much of the old testament murdering people, especially innocent children.

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 8:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML However, the question put to me was: what if there were no god? What then? Things would be exactly the way they are now. You are probably right. Exploitation and cruelty would simply put on a different dress. The progressive dream would remain only that. . . a dream. The more I ponder the question in the OP the more I am inclined to say that men do not need priests to control others, although they have helped immensely.

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 8:26:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer. Thanks for playing [8\|] Mankind basically told God to leave them alone and that is what he is doing and now you call God a "merciless, mean and or impotent old dude" for doing exactly what mankind asked him to do. Which is why I said; "It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God." Thanks for playing ;-) I didn't get that memo. When did mankind tell god to leave off preventing natural disasters that kill innocent babies? and who is it that speaks for mankind

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 8:31:53 AM)
quote: There are plenty of people on my to kill list, either for reason of compassion, or revenge or because my gene pool would be improved by it, or just because I feel like it. Your 'divine' has a gene pool? Does he have a rubber ducky to play with as well?

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/14/2014 8:47:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Oh gosh, am I not allowed some self-serving froth? Must I be as humble as Kirata? [:D] It's always a good sign when the best someone has to offer is defensive little comments on my personality. Sighssss. . . it is not a good sign when someone comes to the boards without their sense of humor. You usually have it with you. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Enhancing life seems a worthy goal in a godless world. Do you object? Why? Please be precise. Not so fast. It "seems" is not even an answer to my question, let alone anything resembling a precise one. K. That is because you ask a tight question on so broad a topic. There are several aspects to consider: moral, economic, social, humanitarian, geopolitical, even spiritual (in the sense of human brotherhood) There is no precise answer to your question. In that sense it was a useless question. There is conflict however over the definition of social justice. Some see it as the inalienable human right to a life that has access to health care and potable water as well as freedom from oppression. Others however see it as a demand for redistribution of wealth. So, the answers depend on where you stand philosophically on the condition of mankind. We have already seen remarks in this thread that blame the victims for their plight. So, yasee, there is no precise answer.

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