RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/11/2014 8:54:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

God is a merciless, mean and or impotent old dude...

Well, it may please you to imagine that you are making a claim about God here, but what you are actually expressing is your conception of God, and I agree with your judgment of it.

K.






Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/11/2014 9:55:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius#The_Gospel_of_Luke
The first two chapters of the Gospel of Luke indicate the birth of Jesus took place at the time of the census:

In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. (Luke 2:1–7—NRSV)

The passage describes how Jesus' parents, Joseph and Mary, travel from their home in Nazareth, in Galilee, to Bethlehem, where Jesus is born. This explains how Jesus, a Galilean, could have been born in Bethlehem in Judea, the city of King David. However, this passage has long been considered problematic by Biblical scholars, since it places the birth of Jesus around the time of the census in 6/7, whereas both this Gospel and the Gospel of Matthew, which makes no mention of the census, indicate a birth in the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BCE, at least ten years earlier.[12] In addition, no historical sources mention a census of the Roman world which would cover the entire population. Those of Augustus covered Roman citizens only,[13] and it was not the practice in Roman censuses to require people to return to their ancestral homes.[14][15][16][17][18] James Dunn wrote: "the idea of a census requiring individuals to move to the native town of long dead ancestors is hard to credit".[19] E. P. Sanders points out that it would have been the practice for the census-takers, not the taxed, to travel, and that Joseph, resident in Galilee, would not have been covered by a census in Judaea.[20]
Thanks
Of course you know that this is not proof that the census story never happened. It is just "proof" that at this time there no evidence for it.

quote:

Think about it who was emperor? Augustus or Herod? Either way there's a problem with your Bible.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here, obviously Augustus was emperor at the time and Herod was a king of Judea. Why is that a problem?



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/11/2014 10:21:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Like I said: "Should we ask the moderators to check and see if I've treated you as badly as you say I have?" ;-)

Where/when did I complain about you treating me badly? Repeating the lie will not gain you the miracle of Truth.

Whine to the Mods if you wish. Be prepared to state your case with details.

Or you can cry to your mommy.

[sm=duel.gif]
This is what you said;
You give me a cockamamie answer about personal responsibility that I have seen appear on these boards zillions of times in discussing politics. And you call me uncivil because I will not accept such an inane and irrelevant reply to my question. In addition you posture that it is all so beneath you. Do you not see your own responsibility in dodging the issue? Do not blame me for your feeble response. If you asked me if I am going to be civil it was in your dreams not in this thread. You add insult by making shit up.

It seems that you feel I have offended you by giving "a cockamamie answer", giving you an "inane and irrelevant reply", that I have called you "uncivil", that I have acted as if you are "beneath" me and that I have added "insult by making shit up". Then in this very post accuse me of "repeating the lie".

As for the Mods, I merely asked if you wish to take your case to the Mods, since you seem to be so offended with the way I have treated you.

As for details I think this post should cover it for you but if you want more I'm sure I could do that for you.

As for my Mother she is dead, thanks for your kind reminder. ;-)



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/11/2014 11:04:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

God is a merciless, mean and or impotent old dude when he allows nature to kill the innocent. You ignore that in your apologia.
Just because God won't do things your way he must be a merciless, mean and or impotent old dude.

I've already asked you what if there is no God, what then?

Then these "innocent" that die, at best they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But some would say they were just stupid for living in a flood plane or just stupid to be living on the side of a volcano or just stupid to build buildings that can't handle an earthquake if they live in an earthquake zone or just stupid to live in a tornado zone with no shelter or just stupid not to leave when warned of a hurricane or for the most part they're just stupid.

They don't need a God, "that doesn't exist" to help them, they need to stop blaming God, take responsibility for their actions and start acting like adults and start using a little common sense. But then that has always been the problem hasn't, mankind has never wanted to take responsibility for their actions and still is trying to blame it all on someone else.

Sometime back, here in Colorado, there was a big flood and a large number died. The police drove up an down all day warning the flood was coming, move to higher ground and all they had to do was walk up the side of the canyon to be safe. But it wasn't raining in the canyon, you could kick up the dust on the ground, the rain was falling in the mountains miles away. So no one believed it and the stayed in their homes. Why didn't mean old God save them, put his hand in front of the water and hold it back, well my question is why didn't they just walk up the side of the canyon?

Also you might like to know:
The total land surface area of Earth is about 57,308,738 square miles, of which about 33% is desert and about 24% is mountainous. Subtracting this uninhabitable 57% (32,665,981 mi2) from the total land area leaves 24,642,757 square miles or 15.77 billion acres of habitable land.

Divide this figure by the current human population of 6.8 billion (that's 6,800 million people) and you get 2.3 acres (just under one hectare) per person. If all the habitable land on Earth were equally distributed among all human beings present on the planet, this is the per capita share of good land per person.



GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 12:07:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Concerning persons returning to their home city for the taxation-census, an Egyptian papyrus dating from AD 104 reports just such a practice. This rule was enforced, as well [3. Ibid. p. 194]." [The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ (1996) by Gary Habermas]


If you're referring to:

"Gaius Vibius Maximus, the Prefect of Egypt, declares:

The census by household having begun, it is essential that all those who are away from their homes be summoned to return to their own hearths so that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the countryside are required by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, the Cavalry Commander, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month E. . ."

Then yes the Romans wanted people to be home, this makes sense as checking out their possessions would be useful for taxation.

On the other hand declaring that people needed to leave their homes and travel days away to hold up in a barn makes sense/helps anyone out how exactly?



MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 12:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Then maybe you are just listening to the wrong voices. Moderate Christians may not shout, jump up and down and get all mean spirited and hateful, but we are here. And it is really not solely our job to protest extremists its everyone's. Just make sure you are directing your protests at the actual extremists. Similar to the complaint levied BY moderate Muslims, do not try to label EVERYONE who uses this title as an extremist just because one narrow minded group did the wrong thing.


Indeed you are here. But a look at the history of Christianity reveals you gentle moderates are anomalous. I hope I do not need to recite the atrocities committed since Constantine to make my point.


So you admit we are anomalous? Then you should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. It should be very easy for you to tell the difference between who is and is not the extremist isn't it?

I could very easily recite the atrocities committed by Caucasians over the years. Should I then use that list as the standard for judging ALL white people? (Sounds rather bigoted when it is said that way doesn't it?)



GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 12:15:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
I'm not sure what you are getting at here, obviously Augustus was emperor at the time and Herod was a king of Judea. Why is that a problem?


Exactly what the wiki pointed out, there's a ten year discrepancy:

"However, this passage has long been considered problematic by Biblical scholars, since it places the birth of Jesus around the time of the census in 6/7, whereas both this Gospel and the Gospel of Matthew, which makes no mention of the census, indicate a birth in the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BCE, at least ten years earlier"



GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 12:21:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
So you admit we are anomalous? Then you should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. It should be very easy for you to tell the difference between who is and is not the extremist isn't it?

I could very easily recite the atrocities committed by Caucasians over the years. Should I then use that list as the standard for judging ALL white people? (Sounds rather bigoted when it is said that way doesn't it?)


I have yet to talk to an atheist who thinks that all Christians are the same. With tens of thousands of denominations it's pretty obvious that there are differences. Where you and an atheist may differ is on defining which part of the spectrum is the norm and which is the fringe.



GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 12:26:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Thanks
Of course you know that this is not proof that the census story never happened. It is just "proof" that at this time there no evidence for it.


I did more than that, I've made the point that biblical account:

1. was not how censuses were conducted
2. is inconsistent with other gospels
3. would have been insane



MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 1:01:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
So you admit we are anomalous? Then you should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. It should be very easy for you to tell the difference between who is and is not the extremist isn't it?

I could very easily recite the atrocities committed by Caucasians over the years. Should I then use that list as the standard for judging ALL white people? (Sounds rather bigoted when it is said that way doesn't it?)


I have yet to talk to an atheist who thinks that all Christians are the same. With tens of thousands of denominations it's pretty obvious that there are differences. Where you and an atheist may differ is on defining which part of the spectrum is the norm and which is the fringe.



I have yet to talk to an atheist that thinks all Christians are the same as well. I was just making sure that track record was continuing.
And I don't think myself and most atheists would differ much at all on defining the norm and the fringe.



Rule -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 1:18:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
declaring that people needed to leave their homes and travel days away to hold up in a barn makes sense/helps anyone out how exactly?

If only the Doctor's Tardis would bring you there so you could ask them yourself!



Rule -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 1:26:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I have yet to talk to an atheist who thinks that all Christians are the same. With tens of thousands of denominations it's pretty obvious that there are differences. Where you and an atheist may differ is on defining which part of the spectrum is the norm and which is the fringe.

It is not the denomination that makes the difference, but how long a population has been Christian, which is reflected by a low frequency of inherited diseases. (Some denominations such as the Amish have a high frequency of inherited diseases and therefore cannot be considered to be Christian.)



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 5:45:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Concerning persons returning to their home city for the taxation-census, an Egyptian papyrus dating from AD 104 reports just such a practice. This rule was enforced, as well [3. Ibid. p. 194]." [The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ (1996) by Gary Habermas]


If you're referring to:

"Gaius Vibius Maximus, the Prefect of Egypt, declares:

The census by household having begun, it is essential that all those who are away from their homes be summoned to return to their own hearths so that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the countryside are required by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, the Cavalry Commander, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month E. . ."

Then yes the Romans wanted people to be home, this makes sense as checking out their possessions would be useful for taxation.

On the other hand declaring that people needed to leave their homes and travel days away to hold up in a barn makes sense/helps anyone out how exactly?
I can see the point you are trying to make but 90% of what even modern day governments do makes no sense to me. ;-)



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 6:08:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
I'm not sure what you are getting at here, obviously Augustus was emperor at the time and Herod was a king of Judea. Why is that a problem?


Exactly what the wiki pointed out, there's a ten year discrepancy:

"However, this passage has long been considered problematic by Biblical scholars, since it places the birth of Jesus around the time of the census in 6/7, whereas both this Gospel and the Gospel of Matthew, which makes no mention of the census, indicate a birth in the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BCE, at least ten years earlier"

There is much speculation about when Jesus was born, mainly because of lack of documentation and of how long ago it was. I personally believe Jesus was born about (September-October) of 2 B.C.E. At that time Augustus was emperor and Herod who could have died as late as 1 B.C.E. would have been alive. As for the "census", that is a little murkier but some say a census earlier than the one in 6/7 B.C.E. took place in about 2/1 B.C.E.



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 6:26:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
So you admit we are anomalous? Then you should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. It should be very easy for you to tell the difference between who is and is not the extremist isn't it?

I could very easily recite the atrocities committed by Caucasians over the years. Should I then use that list as the standard for judging ALL white people? (Sounds rather bigoted when it is said that way doesn't it?)


I have yet to talk to an atheist who thinks that all Christians are the same. With tens of thousands of denominations it's pretty obvious that there are differences. Where you and an atheist may differ is on defining which part of the spectrum is the norm and which is the fringe.

Just because something is considered the "norm" does not make it correct, it just means the a majority accept it. But Christianity is not a popularity contest, what makes Christianity, Christianity is does it conform to what the Bible says Christianity is.



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 7:30:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
Thanks
Of course you know that this is not proof that the census story never happened. It is just "proof" that at this time there no evidence for it.


I did more than that, I've made the point that biblical account:

quote:

1. was not how censuses were conducted
Well, there does seem to be some evidence that some censuses of the time had similar rules.
quote:

2. is inconsistent with other gospels
In way is it inconsistent? Just because it is in one account and not another does not make it inconsistent, it just means one account included it and another left it out.
quote:

3. would have been insane
Well the census in 6/7 B.C.E. did cause a rebellion.



Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 7:32:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
declaring that people needed to leave their homes and travel days away to hold up in a barn makes sense/helps anyone out how exactly?

If only the Doctor's Tardis would bring you there so you could ask them yourself!
The Doctor is never around when you really need him. ;-)



vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 8:41:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I have yet to talk to an atheist who thinks that all Christians are the same. With tens of thousands of denominations it's pretty obvious that there are differences. Where you and an atheist may differ is on defining which part of the spectrum is the norm and which is the fringe.

It is not the denomination that makes the difference, but how long a population has been Christian, which is reflected by a low frequency of inherited diseases. (Some denominations such as the Amish have a high frequency of inherited diseases and therefore cannot be considered to be Christian.)


A reasonable scientific mind would be able to see that the Amish anomaly blows a hole in your theory and especially your past ravings about a certain circumcised Nation.



vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 9:05:28 AM)

quote:

So you admit we are anomalous? Then you should have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. It should be very easy for you to tell the difference between who is and is not the extremist isn't it?

I could very easily recite the atrocities committed by Caucasians over the years. Should I then use that list as the standard for judging ALL white people? (Sounds rather bigoted when it is said that way doesn't it?)


The problem is that the chaff have a louder voice presently than the meek moderates and have done immense historical damage, torture and murder in the name of their savior. So, we are able to judge the corruption within the dogma that has fueled the flames of internecine struggle: grace v works, clerical v laity, authoritarian v liberation theology, among others.

As for your list of evils done by Caucasians, not bigoted at all. Theirs is quite clearly a history of war, conquest, colonialism, and racism. Being white (now that Italian-Americans are allowed) I share their historical guilt and I speak out against its continuation elsewhere on these Boards, because it persists even to this day as a faux superiority. Would that Christians would do the same. The world's races and religions ache for reconciliation but the chaff in both groups are an enormous obstacle. Dithering away on this thread about this or that Biblical citation seems a comfortable exercise but it hides the real world conflict and drifts from the OP. So, back to the OP and enlarging it somewhat: clearly history will support the thesis that religion, nationalism, and racism are tools created to control knowledge, power, and people.



vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 9:19:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Like I said: "Should we ask the moderators to check and see if I've treated you as badly as you say I have?" ;-)

Where/when did I complain about you treating me badly? Repeating the lie will not gain you the miracle of Truth.

Whine to the Mods if you wish. Be prepared to state your case with details.

Or you can cry to your mommy.

[sm=duel.gif]
This is what you said;
You give me a cockamamie answer about personal responsibility that I have seen appear on these boards zillions of times in discussing politics. And you call me uncivil because I will not accept such an inane and irrelevant reply to my question. In addition you posture that it is all so beneath you. Do you not see your own responsibility in dodging the issue? Do not blame me for your feeble response. If you asked me if I am going to be civil it was in your dreams not in this thread. You add insult by making shit up.

It seems that you feel I have offended you by giving "a cockamamie answer", giving you an "inane and irrelevant reply", that I have called you "uncivil", that I have acted as if you are "beneath" me and that I have added "insult by making shit up". Then in this very post accuse me of "repeating the lie".

As for the Mods, I merely asked if you wish to take your case to the Mods, since you seem to be so offended with the way I have treated you.

As for details I think this post should cover it for you but if you want more I'm sure I could do that for you.

As for my Mother she is dead, thanks for your kind reminder. ;-)


I shall take into account that you are a virgin to these boards if you take my comments to be an assault on you. I simply found your rambling answer an evasion of the point.

Look again. You asked if "we" should go to the mods. I never had a complaint about a violation of TOS. That's evasive shit you made up. If you do have a complaint, then by all means cry to the Mods. If not, please stop whining. It is a waste of fucking time.



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