RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge

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vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 9:21:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML God is a merciless, mean and or impotent old dude... Well, it may please you to imagine that you are making a claim about God here, but what you are actually expressing is your conception of God, and I agree with your judgment of it. K. OY! I can't stop laughing. We have agreed on too much lately; must be the End of Days. [:D]

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 9:40:19 AM)
quote: I've already asked you what if there is no God, what then? Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe. quote: Divide this figure by the current human population of 6.8 billion (that's 6,800 million people) and you get 2.3 acres (just under one hectare) per person. If all the habitable land on Earth were equally distributed among all human beings present on the planet, this is the per capita share of good land per person. Your mathematics are too absurd to contemplate in a world where people are so interdependent for commerce and industry. Are you really suggesting that each person should live as a hermit on 2.3 acres of land? Embarrassing. [8\|] quote: Then these "innocent" that die, at best they are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But some would say they were just stupid for living in a flood plane or just stupid to be living on the side of a volcano or just stupid to build buildings that can't handle an earthquake if they live in an earthquake zone or just stupid to live in a tornado zone with no shelter or just stupid not to leave when warned of a hurricane or for the most part they're just stupid. Only someone who is insensitive and does not realize the human need for social and commercial interdependence would say they are stupid. Shameful. quote: They don't need a God, "that doesn't exist" to help them, they need to stop blaming God, take responsibility for their actions and start acting like adults and start using a little common sense. But then that has always been the problem hasn't, mankind has never wanted to take responsibility for their actions and still is trying to blame it all on someone else. You turn the issue back onto mankind when the question was about the nature of God. An evasive tactic again because really you cannot justify believing the existence of so cruel and merciless a god, when confronted by the horrific evidence.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 11:10:04 AM)
The chaff are not heard because they simply have louder voices, it is because in a very money driven world they have more financial resources than moderate Christians who tend to devote more economic resources towards helping the sick and poor rather than promoting their own ideology. Being Christian, I (as well as others) share the historical (and present day) guilt in what Christians have done and still do. I do believe I was the first in this thread to point out the bloody, violent and brutal history of Christianity (ref. post #140) and called out "my fellow Christians" on it. I have also spoken out about this in several other threads on these boards. There are others like myself. There is an entire movement called "The Christian Left" of which I am an active part of that is fighting against the extremes that are seen in the radical religious right. I (as well as others) give our time, our money and our voices to the cause and many of us (myself included) are ostracized by mainstream Christians because of our so called "heresy." We even have many atheist members who are devoted to our cause, so if you would like to help out in any way please do. The Christian Left I agree that the chaff are an enormous obstacle and one that will not be easily overcome. I also agree all three "-isms" including religion are man made constructs and used by shysters to control and manipulate. I stated as much earlier in this thread. (reference post#143).

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 11:21:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: 1. was not how censuses were conducted Well, there does seem to be some evidence that some censuses of the time had similar rules. There's no such evidence, none at all. A directive that people stay/go where they live so their property could be assesed unless they had a reason not to is completely different from commanding the population to leave their homes and property to go to their ancestral cities for absolutely no reason. Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise (you can also maintain the premise that the earth's flat). But if you're even slightly more objective this section of the gospel is clearly not factually accurate. Shrug It's not a big deal that was the norm at the time (Julius Caeser wasn't actually born from a virgin either). It would actually be bafflingly abnormal if these stories were 100% factually accurate.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 3:57:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I shall take into account that you are a virgin to these boards if you take my comments to be an assault on you. I simply found your rambling answer an evasion of the point. No need, this not my first rodeo. But if I feel a commenter is allowing his emotions to get carried away, I tend to bow out because he begins to lose his ability to reason. If you find my answers to be a "rambling evasion of the point" just simply say, "I simply found your rambling answer an evasion of the point." Because comments like "ludicrous in the extreme", "Your idea of insightful arguments seems to be to issue quotes from the Bible", "Instead you adopt a pose of transparently phony superiority", "Pathetic", "a cockamamie answer", "an inane and irrelevant reply", "you posture that it is all so beneath you", "dodging the issue", "feeble response", "You add insult by making shit up" and "your absurd answers", do not contribute to the discussion and frankly are a waste of time. quote: Look again. You asked if "we" should go to the mods. I never had a complaint about a violation of TOS. That's evasive shit you made up. If you do have a complaint, then by all means cry to the Mods. If not, please stop whining. It is a waste of fucking time. I only said "we" to be polite, to give you the opportunity to contact the mods with your complaints, with my blessings. I have yet to complain about anything you have done, with the possible exception of pointing out that the conversation would go better if you were a little more civil and went a little lighter on the snide comments.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 5:24:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe. It is about time that after some 5000 years some of mankind are contemplating starting to set about creating a humane and decent life. quote: Your mathematics are too absurd to contemplate in a world where people are so interdependent for commerce and industry. Are you really suggesting that each person should live as a hermit on 2.3 acres of land? Embarrassing. Absurd? Embarrassing? The only thing absurd and embarrassing is your inability to try and engage in any kind of a productive conversation. Instead of seeing my comment as just showing that there is a lot of land for people to live on. You assume I'm saying that each person should live as a "hermit" on his land, no marriage, no children, no socialization. As if living on 2.3 acres of land would completely separate people and make them hermits. quote: Only someone who is insensitive and does not realize the human need for social and commercial interdependence would say they are stupid. Shameful. Where did I say that they no could longer engage in social and commercial interdependence? I just said that they are stupid to try and blame God for their decision to live stupidly. What is shameful is your inability to even start to carry on a reasonable discussion. quote: You turn the issue back onto mankind when the question was about the nature of God. An evasive tactic again because really you cannot justify believing the existence of so cruel and merciless a god, when confronted by the horrific evidence. It is not an evasive tactic, it is merely turning the discussion to where it should be. It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God. Where is the respect? The thankfulness? Where is the respect for the life you have? Where is the respect for the beautiful planet we live on, the sunsets, the trees, the food, the senses we have to enjoy these things. What about God working out how to return mankind to perfection so that all the things you complain about will things of the past. Where is the thankfulness? But to you it is what has God done for me lately. All you can see is God doesn't do this and didn't no that, as if God is your servant and should be what ever you want him to be and do what ever you want him to.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 5:39:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel There's no such evidence, none at all. A directive that people stay/go where they live so their property could be assesed unless they had a reason not to is completely different from commanding the population to leave their homes and property to go to their ancestral cities for absolutely no reason. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. quote: Sure if you start from the premise that the bibles completely true and ignore/bend/invent everything else to fit that presupposition than you can manage to maintain your premise Okay I will. quote: (you can also maintain the premise that the earth's flat). No thanks. But if you're even slightly more objective this section of the gospel is clearly not factually accurate. Shrug It's not a big deal that was the norm at the time (Julius Caeser wasn't actually born from a virgin either). It would actually be bafflingly abnormal if these stories were 100% factually accurate.You just want it not to be factual and that is your choice but for me, I've seen too many times where things that appear to make the Bible not factual are changed by new discoveries, making the Bible factual after all.

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 7:05:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles You just want it not to be factual and that is your choice... Huh [sm=idea.gif] why would I care whether or not a family went to Bethlehem? Think about it, why would I have bias here? There are historical events in the Bible which are accurate, whether or not one of those factual events is "guy goes on three day trip with his wife" shrug why would I care? I'm just repeating the scholarship I've read on the subject.

Milesnmiles -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 7:41:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Huh [sm=idea.gif] why would I care whether or not a family went to Bethlehem? Think about it, why would I have bias here? There are historical events in the Bible which are accurate, whether or not one of those factual events is "guy goes on three day trip with his wife" shrug why would I care? I'm just repeating the scholarship I've read on the subject. I don't know you, so I couldn't say why you would care one way or the other. The thing is if you didn't care one way or the other, you probably wouldn't be in this discussion and probably wouldn't have any reason to be conversant with this subject. Just saying. ;-)

Dvr22999874 -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 8:05:18 PM)
Who ever said that Julius Caesar WAS born of a virgin ? He was supposedly born by caesaerian section (hence the name) but even that is open to question

Kirata -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/12/2014 11:09:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I've already asked you what if there is no God, what then? Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe. It suffices to say "for many people." Styling yourself as "literate, thoughtful, and compassionate" (as if the other side wasn't) is self-serving froth. But, I digress. Why do we need to create a "humane and decent life for all sentient beings"? Please be precise. K.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 3:37:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I've already asked you what if there is no God, what then? Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe. Then by all means you should behave that way if it works for you and helps you to be a literate, thoughtful and compassionate person; but it is a bit presumptuous to say that "we" should behave that way as well. I too believe in creating a humane and decent life for as many sentient beings as we can and for me that is behaving as if God is alive and a very real and present help in my life. Do what works for you and let believers do what works for them. If belief in God helps someone to be a literate, thoughtful and compassionate person then that is wonderful. If a believer is not those things then I dare say they would be illiterate, un-thoughtful, and lacking compassion whether they believed in God or not. Faith in God in and of itself does not make a person good or bad. It only intensifies and brings to the surface what is already in them.

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 5:59:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 Who ever said that Julius Caesar WAS born of a virgin ? He was supposedly born by caesaerian section (hence the name) but even that is open to question quote: ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births#Heroes_and_historical_figures Alexander, the Ptolemies, and the Caesars were said by some scholars to have been "virgin born". Alexander the Great, " journeyed to the Oasis of Amen in order that he might be recognized as the god’s son and thus become a legitimate and recognized king of Egypt. Inscriptions show that he and the Ptolemies after him had the incidents of their birth regularly depicted in temple reliefs.”[60] (As cited by Boslooper) Norden calls this the Hellenistic virgin motif. However, evidence shows that Alexander must have had a double tradition of origin. It is recorded that "Alexander the Great and Augustus are deemed to have been conceived of a serpent god, and they claimed between them Phoebus and Jupiter as their progenitors."[61]

GotSteel -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 6:01:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles The thing is if you didn't care one way or the other, you probably wouldn't be in this discussion and probably wouldn't have any reason to be conversant with this subject. Just saying. ;-) I have a bit of a debate fetish.

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 6:23:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles The thing is if you didn't care one way or the other, you probably wouldn't be in this discussion and probably wouldn't have any reason to be conversant with this subject. Just saying. ;-) I have a bit of a debate fetish. [:D] Don't we all?

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 7:32:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I've already asked you what if there is no God, what then? Well, for many a literate, thoughtful, and compassionate person the 'then' is that we set about to create a humane and decent life for all sentient beings. We need to at least behave as if God is dead because he certainly seems disinterested in this little corner of an unimportant galaxy among 500 million galaxies in an apparently expanding universe. It suffices to say "for many people." Styling yourself as "literate, thoughtful, and compassionate" (as if the other side wasn't) is self-serving froth. But, I digress. Why do we need to create a "humane and decent life for all sentient beings"? Please be precise. K. Oh gosh, am I not allowed some self-serving froth? Must I be as humble as Kirata? [:D] Enhancing life seems a worthy goal in a godless world. Do you object? Why? Please be precise.

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 7:56:16 AM)
quote: There is an entire movement called "The Christian Left" of which I am an active part of that is fighting against the extremes that are seen in the radical religious right. I am aware of the social justice preachings of Jesus as you might guess from my reference to liberation theology. Commendable for you. Sad that the Catholic hierarchy post John XXIII smashed the movement in Latin America. Hopeful that Francis is reawakening the movement there despite the skepticism regarding his past activities in Buenos Aires. Interesting the extremes of opinion on what Christianity is about, innit? I mentioned earlier the corruption at the core of Christian dogma but I neglected one major defect, perhaps the worst. Common to the Abrahamic sects is this notion of Exclusivity or The Chosen, which imo contributes immensely to past and current belligerence in human history along with the other 'isms.'

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 7:59:25 AM)
quote: Faith in God in and of itself does not make a person good or bad. It only intensifies and brings to the surface what is already in them. That is sadly all too obvious. However, the question put to me was: what if there were no god? What then? That is what I addressed my answer to.

vincentML -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 8:08:52 AM)
quote: It is not an evasive tactic, it is merely turning the discussion to where it should be. It is the nature of mankind that is the issue not the nature of God. You can obfuscate the issue all you want. My question remains: How can you reconcile belief in the existence of a loving god in the face of the evidence of natural disasters that kill innocent children? I accept that you have no answer. Thanks for playing [8\|]

MsMJAY -> RE: is religion a tool created to control knowledge (1/13/2014 11:16:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: There is an entire movement called "The Christian Left" of which I am an active part of that is fighting against the extremes that are seen in the radical religious right. I am aware of the social justice preachings of Jesus as you might guess from my reference to liberation theology. Commendable for you. Sad that the Catholic hierarchy post John XXIII smashed the movement in Latin America. Hopeful that Francis is reawakening the movement there despite the skepticism regarding his past activities in Buenos Aires. Interesting the extremes of opinion on what Christianity is about, innit? I mentioned earlier the corruption at the core of Christian dogma but I neglected one major defect, perhaps the worst. Common to the Abrahamic sects is this notion of Exclusivity or The Chosen, which imo contributes immensely to past and current belligerence in human history along with the other 'isms.' I totally agree.

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